Stainless Steel

It is most likely "just" carbon contamination from poor handling practices (or even from tooling)

See page 10

http://www.acciaiterni.com/db/eng/docPubblicazioni/lato/Pickling_and_Passivating_StainlessSteel_EN.pdf

Were the suspect batches procured by normal means? from trusted vendor? from same vendor?

Has your handling procedure changed? personnel? storage area?

What's different about these batches? Forget the rust, for now. Are the sheets of steel the same, except for that.

Guest is right. Iron contamination is a major cause of surface rust on corrosion resistant steels.

Know what the problem is before you blame the foundry.

Assume your rust is surface only. Well "stainless" is just an expression the right words to describe would be stain resistant and that's because of the Cr and Ni surface molequles and their oxides preventing iron corrosion but that's in normal conditions. . If you bake it for example in hostile environment there goes your stainless quality. You could try passivation (treatment with acids to remove surface iron including contaminations) but all really depends on your application

How do you know when you are purchasing high quality stainless steels.

When you order material, ask/demand for the heat numbers for the steel.

This will give you verication of the make up.

p911

You are being very insensitive, not to say ignorant when you insinuate that steel shipped from India and China is of inferior quality. You are entitled to your bigotry but please do not pollute a technical forum with it.

Will the moderator please step in and stop such immature posts?

Quite true, but just ignore such comments by a moron. That way it is good for your heart & brain.

Yeah - it could possibly be the original posters' own personnel doing the iron contamination, for example, sliding the high quality stainless onto dirty forklift forks.

A person without a spine masquerading under "Guest" and trying to justify heinous remarks by Anthony insulting two great nations. (By the way I am neither Indian nor Chinese).

You Guest .. We have been with CR4 for years and contributed to the quality of it. So we do not need racially biased "Anthony's" or spineless morons like you in CR4. Go away.

I agree with you guest...........there are serious problems with many items that come from India, and particularly China.

I think that in many cases they ignore the safety standards of countries that they are exporting to. Just as an example I purchased several engine mounting frames and they were supposedly capable of holding 500kgs............they couldn't even hold 250kgs..........a definite safety issue........I was getting students to mount a few engines on them so that they could strip a small engine and rebuild it. Fortunately the frames were of such poor quality, they bent well under their limit and were still supported by an English chain block...........I am only glad that the chain block was not made in China.

Unfortunately this type of problem is not just one off, or, a few items.........it is almost in plague proportions............and this includes steel manufacturers.

When factories/businesses in India and China are run at a high standard and quality control is in place and adhered to, no problem exists. This I think is the major cause of the problem.

A few years ago one could buy an item of equipment/machinery on its name e.g. say a Sony TV.....you now see the "same" TV..... Sony, Japan, Made in China.....and a poorer quality product...........and the retailers still charge an inflated price.

They cannot ignore minimum standards for exporting. Each country has their minimum standards for items to be acceptable into that country.

The stainless steel in question met the minimum requirements.

I don't know about India, from what I've heard, India does a pretty good job in producing quality products.

China on the other hand is still coming around. Many companies in China have hired consultants to assist them in bringing up their processes to standards necessary to compete on a global market. They know they are lacking in areas and are being proactive in doing something about it.

The issue here is about the handling or storing of the material. If it's being stored in contact with mild steel, or being processed with the same machinery that the mild steel is in contact with, is enough to contaminate the material enough to cause rusting.

The best thing to do is to contact the vendor and inform them of the problem.

G.A.

On a side note....a few years back China was the one driving up the price of steel including stainless because of their own demand.

China was buying old US inefficient steel mills, dismantling them and reassembling them in China.

After a few years the price of Stainless stabilized and actually came down.

IMHO, I believe because China brought these mills on-line.

p911

You are being unreasonable.

You get the quality you deserve.

Greed of the importer is the basic problem, to keep the share holders happy.

Why buy from unaccredited source at all?

Why not purchase from reputed Western vendors?

Cheap cost invariably means cheap quality also.

I am consultant for a firm with international clients. I am conversant with huge expenditure involved in accreditation of importing country's agencies. Cost gets added to the products.

Complaining of poor quality and at the same time insists on lower cost is analogous to running with hare and hunting with the hound!

Finally there is absolutely no compulsion that you buy from China or India!

Finally there is absolutely no compulsion that you buy from China or India!

Unfortunately with many products.............you do not have a choice, but to buy Chinese goods, e.g. electrical white goods, TVs (I have had to take two back in less than 12 months and the "better" TV in the lounge broke down in its thirteenth month, I fortunately had an extended warranty.) When I spoke to the repairman he told me that business has never been so good, and I quote...."since this Chinese crap has been coming into the country."

I am sure things will change.....in time.......I recall that after WW II everything was Japanese crap........and boy did they change.

I don't mind paying top dollar for good gear, my bitch is, that I buy a "name" product, pay for it and then it packs up in three to six months.

Exactly my experiences.

Some people on CR4 (no names mentioned, but they know exactly who they are!) tend to get upset and believe that such facts are racially based, nothing could be farther from the truth, it is just a sad fact of life in the last 10 years or so....

It is somehow more important in their eyes to ignore such possible "fatal" errors on the grounds of "good Manners" etc......they are sadly WAY off key with such ideas, good manners come once the product is 100% correct.

A CR4 member, I forget the name, who "protected" China (generally the worst offender to my mind) against all odds, does not appear to be with us anymore, I wonder why?

Several CR4 members were under the impression that he worked directly for the Chinese Government. Admin too maybe.

Anyone who defends bad business practices is to my mind a possible worker for foreign governments with a reason to cover such things up.....

Anyone who "protects" (as a word to use) is therefore slightly suspect in his reasons.....

Thank God (all Gods/any God) that none of your students came to harm.

I would also like to thank you most kindly for the support and for supplying a perfect example of what can happen.....

Before you say someone is ignorant, you should investigate the shoddy products that get exported from "some countries", anything to make a buck. Suggest that you look at the reclaimed and resold electronics exports for example. That doesn't mean that there aren't a lot of honest and respected exporters, but the old saying: a rotten apple spoils the barrel.

The 'ignorant' is to be viewed strictly in the context of the person concerned being ignorant about good quality steel being produced in the two countries. You do not have to take my word for it - ask GM or Ford or Honda or Toyota or a number of other top auto manufacturers who procure much steel from these two countries.

Well put....

Is this stainless steel being shiped from china or india?

It is unfortunate that, persons like you blame the country even without knowing where from you have procured it .

I remember, a party in India has imported some CS material from Japan long back, where TC mentioned a Carbon percentage of 0.22 but, the actual was found to be around 0.44 %

TIG Filler rod type 2.25 Cr and 1 Mo imported from an European country was found to have only 0.5 % Mo though the TC claims a different figure.

Even Apples received from Australia are less juicy. May be they have different yardsticks for local consumption and for exports. It is said that they were all a year old junk, waxed and put in cold storage prior to exporting to third world countries.

There things will happen irrespective of the country as long as there are ravenous manufactures, and pay less only, type end users.

So, please conduct chemical analysis (th' Spectra) if required, before procurement, check the type of material and also for contamination

Hi my friends from China & India,

My advice to you is not to take this, too personal. It is personal opinion of the OP. It only reflects on his character.Only an idiot will express such opinion in an open forum, for that matter in a technical forum.

When it comes to crooks & cheating, you & I can always give many examples of such nature irrespective of the country they are from........ US,UK, Europe, Japan, India, China or for that matter from my own country Sri Lanka!

I have only one request to the OP. Please be a gentleman apologize and withdraw your nasty comment. If not my request to CR4 admin, please remove the thread.

"Is this stainless steel being shipped from china or India?"

Insinuation of China/India being synonym with counterfeiting is deeply regretted.

Counterfeiting is a global scourge and no country is immune to it either as manufacturer or as consumer.

Some decade or two back I have had personal experience of receiving counterfeit/reconditioned parts of piston engine from a Florida based company complete with forged certificate of air worthiness, confirming wide spread belief that US was a major source of counterfeited and unauthorized recondition of commercial aircraft components. Now thanks to preventive measures there has been no major incident of unauthorized components in major air lines.

Fortunately modern technology offers a viable solution to this deadly menace.

"Technological solutions to counterfeiting can provide an effective solution. Tamper resistant semiconductors can prevent counterfeiting outright, avoiding the cost, time, and complexity of tracing and suing counterfeiters around the world. To be effective, anti-counterfeiting technologies must introduce elements which are infeasible for even well-funded adversaries to clone. As a result, robust tamper-resistance and anti-cloning properties are essential" says http://www.cryptography.com/technology/anti-counterfeiting/index.html

Dear Mr. Anthony

Do not blame any country without confirmation. It may be your mistakes also rust due to mishandling because during handling some iron contamination is there.

May be You have handled the plates by using with carbon steel hooks directly to stainless steel plate it may be reason to rusting the plate.

Anil

Friends.. if you are still passionate about this issue go and have a look in the website given my this guy....http://www.alnoproductservices.com.au and give him some hell on info@alnoproductservices.com.au

It says all you need to know about the guy... It is not even a corporate body

Anyway still my advice is to just ignore the moron.

Anthony,

You can try to check with positive material identification (PMI)

A expert and portable machine can help you.

Go to Google and find contractor

Hi Anthony,

It is surprising that you do not know the source of supply for defective consignment. You are just assuming the names. If I had been in your place I would have taken up strongly with supplier if it is his fault, no matter it is from China or India or any other country from the world. Why should Stainlees Steel get rusted in short period of two weeks?. Even if it is stored in open yard it should not get rusted until and unless it is defective S.S.Steel.

It could have been wrong supply or some mix up some where. Please investigate and kindly also post your results in CR4 for benefit of other members.

Suresh Sharma.

Why is Anthony a racist or a bigot..............all he did was ask two questions.

Is this stainless steel being shipped from India or China?..............or did you not notice the question mark.......and

Has anyone else had the same issue?

Are you, who are being caustic in your remarks, reading what was written..........or did you just read India and China.............and say, up you boy, you are a racist and a bigot.

Use some common sense and read the questions before putting your foot in it.

OK Mobi, It is like this. Suppose I see a headline in a newspaper that a couple of guys have got injured in a racist attack and I want to find out where it happened. I could do it two ways. The first would be to ask 'Was it in Australia?' and the second would be 'Where did it happen?' The first one smacks of a certain prejudice and what is more is thrown out without thinking how others may feel about it. The second question is more objective - without insinuating that it did happen in Australia. You will agree that the second one displays more common sense.

When posting stuff on a forum which has members from all over the world we need to be careful about how we sound. You may be aware that many manufacturers today are sourcing a high percentage of their parts from China and India. If you really do not want to 'touch' anything made in these two countries I am afraid you will have to do without most goods that you use in everyday life.

Hi kishor durve,

One of the the reasons the question could have been asked in that manner, was possibly.............products manufactured in China and India have a bad name around the world.......and you cannot dispute that, it is a fact.

As I said before, things will improve, and it is probably unfair to lump all factories,etc., in India and China, in the same basket, so to speak.

Unfortunately it does happen, and I am certainly guilty of that. This can occur because of one or a number of bad experiences with products manufactured in these countries............and I like others have had quite few.

Just another example............shoes...........Hush Puppies..........used to be a very comfortable shoe to wear..........I always bought them...........since being manufactured in China, the price has remained the same..........but the shoes are crap.

Hi Mobi,

Sorry to interfere, I would like to inform you that one of Indian engineering company in India with whom I am associated is exporting their products to U.K under customer's brand name through out the world.

This company is highly quality conscious and has ISO certifications. Goods are exported since past 15 years, there is not a single complaint about product performance. Conclusion is there are quality goods mfrs. everywhere and countries can not be generalised by few bad experiences.

Suresh Sharma.

I have remained relatively quiet, but your email has to be answered as you wrote:-

Conclusion is there are quality goods mfrs. everywhere and countries can not be generalised by few bad experiences.

Then you do not understand human nature in the slightest!

As another poster (Mobi?) has already said, you only need one bad apple in a barrel of good apples to ruin the whole barrel.

It may not be fair, but its a fact of life.....human nature....

You should try and understand the facts of life and human nature a bit better.....as you only need one bad company in every 100 good companies and 99 companies suffer! The only one that does not suffer is the bad company! They have taken money for a service they have not filled, money for nothing!

If the 99 other companies had any sense, they would band together and give a guarantee of quality and customer service to their customers......but they don't, so they will/must suffer.......its certainly not fair, there I must agree with you!

Therefore your protests count for simply nothing here and anywhere, simply because the customer has no way to make sure that he is working with a good company or not......

These incidents get passed around and probably 1000 bad companies in China have ruined the reputation of 1,000,000 companies......thats life and human nature in one!

I personally have not had any trade with India, but as you read from Mobi I believe, a company there sold engine support frames supposedly designed for 500Kg and they bent with less than 200Kg......not good....luckily no one was hurt.....

I am also sure that there have been other occasions of bad customer relationships in India too as no country gets a bad name from only one or two "Fly by night" companies......it takes many!!! Now their reputation is in ruins.

Fiat cars made rust boxes in the 70's, they still have a bad reputation today because of that......nearly 40 years later.....

You can lose a reputation, unfairly or not, in the blink of an eye. But repairing that reputation takes many, many years......China and India (amongst many others) have not yet learnt that!!!

In 20 years, we will all be singing a different song!!!

I normally do not like to enter into unending arguments. Well you have your own personal view and you have every right to express it, similarly I also have same right. It would have been better if you could have disclosed your identity in stead of remaining camouflaged under Guest.

Suresh Sharma.

Good reply.

Suresh Sharma.

Bad reputation not withstanding Wal-Mart is thriving!

You are making it sound like Walmart just happen over night. Walmart would not have grown the way it did, if they had the same business plan for selling quality products back in the beginning as they do now.

So do not make it sound like if Walmart can do it I should also. Pay you dues first. Then you can self destruct any way you like.

About 20 years ago Walmart had an ad campaign of they only sell clothes Made in USA. Until discovered that was not true.

Right now they are riding....or I should say coasting on their PAST reputation and actually creating a new one.

You want a good solid reputation, then create one first. Do not think one should be giving to you because Walmart has had one, and is enjoying it.

p911

Apologies I missed marking off-topic

I obtain many products from both China and India. In both cases, I use the same control points as any vendor regardless of country of origin. I have found the same issue with all suppliers, lack of process and quality control leads to the supply issues. In most cases, with good vendor-customer contacts the problems can be solved. Most of the time they are simple with 50 to 60% of all issues being administrative. Part numbers on the build order not fitting the requested material on the PO.

Raw stock material from China or India is no more a problem than from any where else.

For the poor comments from all players here. It is the impression, and for the most part rightly so, that material from China and India are poor quality. This, impression for India is just play old, and do not reflect the changes in India supply lines that India OEMs have worked for in the last 20 years time. Yes Virgina, there will still be poor product coming from any place where you as the customer is playing the drive to the bottom game.

ydobon

Little off topic but still a point or at least an interesting tid-bit I like to make about quality.

I had taken Statistic Process Control class, And one topic that was covered is back in the sixties the Japanese toured and evaluating the US Steel making process and were appalled with the "dirty" processes.

The Japanese felt that they could make cleaner Steel and a more profitable product.

Well they only accomplished half, they made very clean steel. Problem is, in the colder climates, on the car body's it was so pure that this steel oxidized and rusted out within a short 3-5 years..... If that.....

The reason, too pure, the steel needed some of these impurities to inhibit oxidation.

And to add to the OP, when I am procuring materials, I look for lowest price, Delivery, And quality. And quality can only be learned. I ordered a number of 3/8" 304SS plate material 72" x 144".

Layed it on the waterjet and started cutting, there was so much stress in the material, it raised off the bed 6". The first sheet snapped the nozzle. I learned the hard way, about specifying stress relieving it, It was suppose to have been stress relieved, the Steel rep where we bought it from, said they must not have run it through the rolls enough. They did make adjustments through credit though. This was from a domestic U.S. Mill.

p911

1. No need to go too much into technical discussions. See examples from daily life : Whenever I used a Chinese product, it failed in 2 or 3 days time. I am sure everybody had similar experiences.

2. When you see the packaging / box of a Chinese product, you will first notice words like : "Japan", "UK", or "names of western cities" in big, bold letters. You can only find "Made in China" expressions somewhere in tiny characters if you really look for it.

3. When critisized, defenders of China start to be arrogant and insultive to passivate the person(s) who suffered from lack of quality/safety/morality and who feels that he had been cheated as we all see here in this discussion.

4. I am personally determined not to buy any Chinese product provided that its usage is not inevitable. Well, one goes to toilet minimum twice a day, isn't it?

Uygur

Well put my feelings exactly.....

You are SOOOOO right!!

Whenever I used a Chinese product, it failed in 2 or 3 days time. I am sure everybody had similar experiences.

The market will make the adjustments. Or at least pressure from other governments they trade with.

4. I am personally determined not to buy any Chinese product provided that its usage is not inevitable. Well, one goes to toilet minimum twice a day, isn't it?

I hear alot of that and good luck., I won't be surprised if one day you'll have to use a stick or a leaf because of your convictions. I wonder how many people actually follow through on that type of statement?

BTW, China is aggressively trying to buy well known manufacturers in the west.

The US government put a stop to that.

China basically wants to do what took this country a 100 years to do, but wants to do it in a fraction of that time.

The interesting thing is, China started back in the 70's. And by the time they get where they want to be, that is = to the west, and be recognized for it. which I believe they will, it will be at least another 20 years. And that is across the board. with All products and not just a few select ones.

p911

Phoenix, You hit the nail on the head!

Talking of impurities, brings to mind the case of ultra pure water, the kind used in manufacture of silicon wafers.

Water in its natural state is not just H2 O, but also contains naturally occurring impurities.

If ultra pure water is consumed by human it will seek to attain it natural state by aggressively seeking impurities from the body with disastrous consequences!

This is nothing but childish bickering!

Grow UP people!

childish bickering!

possible, but issues needing to be address,

off topic, some responses, yes

need its own thread, definitely yes.

Such as comparative products and the history and growth of manufacturing.

p911

We've lost sight of the original problem, that's all.

This is an uncharacteristic position for me since I, too have opinions, but this isn't the right place.

Cheers!

This being a forum opinions are welcome.

I believe the original problem was addressed, with certs and procedures.

I look at it as a mop up of other tangent issue that are brewing. But instead of starting another post and losing the momentum, it just continues.

There are other threads topics that are more appropriate for applying this discussion. but if a new thread starts, it would be best if reason, facts and data are used instead of emotion, ignorance and fear......oops fear is also an emotion.

And since this topic is ending, its nice to dispense the negatives here than at the new thread.......if that happens. I see what you mean, I think its more of tone of the responses than opinions.

For the most part, I am just grateful that the responders are open and not hiding as to where they are coming from, kinda a refreshing change.

good day,

p911

Absolutely right and I am guilty too. Anthony, OP after starting the post did not bother to contribute at all. He must be laughing from both ends (I am not sure whether it isthe correct expression- btw i am not a native English speaker!)

OP if he was a decent person should at least have the courtesy to come back and report what he found out whether it is China/India to be blamed for producing bad quality SS and selling it cheap to any moron who will buy without checking mill certificates/ vendor certification or else whether it is bad handling at his/his vendor's yard.

If anyone bothered to check up OP's website one would have understood type of business he is running and would not have taken his foolish comments so serious and run to his defence.

Hi Sisra,

I have checked up his web site, it is just tool room service with product designing facility.It seems he works there as Machinist and he is 75% Engineer as per his registered bio data.You can now make your own conclusions.

Suresh Sharma.

Hey Sisira........about me.....

Machinist Qualifications

Design Qualifications

Mechanical Engineering Degree

Masters in Business........

Sisira I own a profitable Engineering business that is operating in Australia.

I have not responded as I don't have that much time on my hands furthermore time is important to me. (Particularly when I have to response to people time wasters like yourself.)

Who is laughing now?

Sisira you have NOT identified yourself do you have a profitable business?.......where?

Or are you a know it all engineer that will be looking for work when the economy turns in your part of the world?

Booms are a cycle…it is true that china and India are in a boom cycle this is not sustainable.

Finally I will respond when I have the facts.

Fact:

No. 1. Yes we are receiving 2nd rated material from cheap importers

More facts to come when they are certain

Anthony

Anthony@alnoproductservices.com.au

www.alnoproductservices.com.au

P.S.

Sisira….I could be wrong about you

Please write something that is no going to waist my time on this topic

Impressive portfolio Anthony,

I do have to say with your background why material certs weren't required.

Or have you not experiences these types of quality issues before.

p911

p.s.

I would say it safe to say you have somebody else taking care of your human resources.

Hi Anthony,

Read your very impressive Biodata.... still could not understand why a person with such excellent qualifications fell into a trap of a salesman. When I buy Stainless Steel I always insist on material certificates.

Has anyone else had the same issue? You should have asked other people who bought from your vendor not CR4?

Is this stainless steel being shiped from china or india? Common sense is that you should have this from your vendor. Then you would have got the correct answer in a jiffy. Instead of the obvious you chose to make a disparaging remarks about 2 great nations India & China! So much for your qualifications!!

I believe you are the one who wasted time of CR4 members by asking stupid questions thereby exposing your racist mind.

Good for you that you are having a profitable business.

Since you asked I will tell about myself. I am just a lowly engineer. I never said or never will say I know everything about engineering., but I do have common sense.

I just got a degree in Mechanical Engineering in 1980. I declined a scholarship to do a Ph.D in wind energy and went into work in Petroleum Industry as I loved practical aspect of engg. In 1989 I established a company to manufacture activated carbon which captured markets in 26 countries.. My product was classified as the best Activated carbon by the world's largest gold mining chain Anglogold. In 2004 I sort of semi retired as I do not have to work hard anymore for my living. I live a cool life with my wife of 25 years and two brilliant kids, one graduate of Birmingham Uni, UK and other still studying at NUS.

By the way in 2004, I just got another degree in Information Technology.

I will let other CR4 members decide who is smart and who is stupid.

...you chose to make a disparaging remarks about 2 great nations India & China!.....

I must have missed something somewhere along the line.........I cannot recall any disparaging remarks about two great nations..............and I suppose greatness is like beauty.....it is in the eye of the beholder.

Boy I wish I was as clever and as smart as you seem to be............since when did CR4 become a forum for telling everyone how good we are.

I will tell you one thing my friend, and heaven forbid it does not ever happen, if there is ever another major conflict, one of those great nations (as you so succinctly put it), will not be an ally of the western powers...........one could only hope that there military hardware is like the majority of goods they are flooding the world with......crap!!!

If India is such a great nation.........why have so many left the country and inhabit so many countries throughout the earth?

By the way before you accuse me of being racist.......I am just asking a question..........as was Anthony.........in case you have forgotten.

certainly you have missed the Original post by Anthony, which itself was disparaging.

My post was in direct reply to Anthony's post (in case your eyes are blind the way you chose not to read disparaging remarks) and since he asked for it in public I published it, the same way Anthony gave his details which you have conveniently turned a blind eye to). You seems to have selective vision.

I wish you do not call me your friend as you certainly do not fall into the type of friend I chose to have.

Your question again why so many Indians have left India, you should ask from them and not from me. Then you would get the correct answer. I only can speculate, may be it is for the same reason why in early days Englishmen came over to Australia.

Anthony also did the same, speculating the origin of goods in CR4 rather than asking his vendor. You Aussies seems to be having a common problem,disorientation (or stupidity), may be inherited from your ancestors!

From my experience, which I might add, in materials selection is not terribly vast, I have experienced no problems and I certainly do not require certification of any product. I trust my supplier that the specified materials that I require, are exactly that.

In Australia we seem to have an extremely bad failing.........we tend to trust people, and one can become dissappointed when unscrupulous businesses take you for a ride just to make a buck.

Don;t worry about me having selective blindness, that may be so, as I do have to wear glasse for reading (small print only), but, I can see the wood from the trees.

YOU and several of your Indian cohorts started all these disparaging remarks, e.g. I refer to comments 5, 6 and 14 as examples.........and if you look (and it doesn't have to be too closely), you will find others of a similar vein.

Although I should not put this in a public forum, I feel that everyone should know the truth, as I see it from my perspective.

Quite frankly sisira, I think you are too full of your own piss and importance, as the saying goes, to recognise a problem that anyone has, such as Anthony.

By the way sisira are you a native of Pakistan?

My conclusion of the matter is, that you are a shit stirrer, and its about time you got a life.

I thought it better not to continue tit for tat answers to the points raised from Australian members for the fear of playing zero sum game.

But this is a public forum and illogical and unsubstantiated allegations should not go unchallenged.

MOBI says "In Australia we seem to have an extremely bad failing.........we tend to trust people, and one can become disappointed when unscrupulous businesses take you for a ride just to make a buck".

You seem to feel that some how your countrymen are more than civilized than rest.

Do you want us seriously believe in pious Aussies even after the following:

• "David", a 21 year old Indian student, was beaten unconscious in the Melbourne suburb of Glenroy on 4 May 2009. Four men had surrounded him, the one from behind smashing a bottle over his head before continuing to punch and kick him.
• Sourabh Sharma was assaulted and robbed by a gang on a train while traveling to his home in Melbourne's western suburbs in May 2009. Sharma said his attackers asked "Why the f--- did you come here?"
• Shravan Kumar, a 25 year old student, was stabbed in the head with a screwdriver in May 2009 while he was partying with three other Indian students.
• Rajesh Kumar, an Indian graduate living in the Sydney suburb had a petrol bomb thrown through his bedroom window on 24 May 2009. Kumar received burns to 30 percent of his body and the blaze was extinguished by his Indian housemates. One housemate, Arminder Singh, said that they had no enemies and he did not know the reason for the attack. Singh also said that the area was not safe, and that he knew neighbours who had been robbed
• Baljinder Singh, a 25 year old Indian student, was stabbed in the abdomen in Melbourne on 25 May. One of his two attackers laughed during the assault. Ashish Sood was badly beaten by a group of fifteen people on Chapel stree, Prahran Victoria,on 30 May.
• On 2 June, Nardeep Singh a 21 year old Indian student was slashed across the chest with a box-cutter knife in Frankston. The incident occurred a day after a Sikh temple in Shepparton was vandalized
• On 8 June, Indians were attacked in Harris Park, allegedly by a group of Lebanese men, which sparked a street protest The local police superintendent said there was no suggestion that these incidents were racially motivated.

• On 8 June, 23 year old Kamal Jit was beaten unconscious while walking home from the St Albans train station. In the suburb of Springvale, an Indian student's car was torched. On 11 June, a 22 year old old Indian student was assaulted in Rundle Mall in Adelide. The fight, which resulted in the students nose being broken, began when the attacker struck at his turban. On 13 June, 24 year old Hardik Bipinbhai Patel was attacked by three people in Melbourne as he was about to enter his car. He was punched directly in the face by one while another hit him over the head from behind rendering him unconscious. He reported that they stole his mobile phone, wallet and car keys.
• On 15 June, 20 year old Sunny Bajaj was attacked by two men as he was entering his car in Boronia. Bajaj claims the men slammed the car door on his hand, punched him in the head and stomach, then racially abused him, calling him a "----ing Indian c---". He also identified one man as white and one appearing to be of African descent.
• On 29th June, a 22 year old Sikh man was attacked when a group of six teenagers tried to remove his turban and cut off his hair. Two of the attackers were later arrested by Victorian police.

I request people especially from industrialized wealthy nations to take some time to learn about rich cultural heritage of the sub continent.

To talk ill of the people who happen to represent glorious heritage and philosophical underlay, is to betray utter ignorance.

What pains and surprises us that few from West can be so ignorant to talk ill of the finest civilization five thousand years old, endlessly rich in philosophy, literature, religion and weaponless struggle for liberty.

It is most ancient and the greatest civilization that mankind has ever known.

It is more painful as we have always looked at West as for its fine achievements to make modern world a wonderful place to live in.

It is with great emphasis I wish to say with conviction that India's glorious history leave one no doubt that the point at which India is poised today not just historical accident.

This is despite deliberate bleeding of India and attempted total destruction of it fine civilization by England for more than 170 years, one of the greatest crime in recorded human history. Hitler's Third Reich atrocities pale in to insignificance before this historical fact!

I feel great pain and regret that CR4 moderators did not step in time put an end to the slur by ignorant Austrians, despite repeated appeals for some on this board.

Don;t worry about me having selective blindness, that may be so, as I do have to wear glasse for reading (small print only), but, I can see the wood from the trees.

YOU and several of your Indian cohorts started all these disparaging remarks, e.g. I refer to comments 5, 6 and 14 as examples.........and if you look (and it doesn't have to be too closely), you will find others of a similar vein.

Although I should not put this in a public forum, I feel that everyone should know the truth, as I see it from my perspective.

Please ignore the last three paragraphs which by over sight got pasted from MOBI's blog!

In order to understand Australian civilization you need to read further on

Myall Creek massacre

Battle Mountain massacre

Coniston massacre

removal of indigenous children classified by Human Rights and EO commission as genocide

On 13 February 2008, Prime Minister Kevin Rudd formally apologised to the Aborigines of the stolen generation. Should I say any more?

If you hear of Gosford massacre or Black Panther massacre in future do not be surprised!

If India is such a great nation.........why have so many left the country and inhabit so many countries throughout the earth? - Mobi In fact the nations like USA, UK were more benefited by the hard work of these Indian-migrants than those individuals. Every nation has its history and culture. Here are some facts about India if you care . GM of Hewlett Packard (hp) -. Rajiv Gupta Creator of Pentium chip (90% of the today's computers run on it) - Vinod Dahm Third richest man on the world - . According to the latest report on Fortune Magazine, it is Azim Premji, CEO of Wipro Industries. The Sultan of Brunei is at 6 th position now. Founder and creator of Hotmail (world's No.1 email program) - Sabeer Bhatia President of AT&T-Bell Labs (creator of C, C++, Unix to name a few) - Arun Netravalli M S Testing Directorof W-2000, who ironed out all initial problems -. Sanjay Tejwrika CEOs of Citi, Mckensey & Stanchart -Victor Menezes, Rajat Gupta & Rana Talwar. Indians are the wealthiest among all ethnic groups in America - faring better than the natives. There are 3.22 millions of Indians in USA (1.5% of population). YET, 38% of doctors in USA are Indians. 17% of INTEL scientists are Indians. 12% scientists in USA are Indians. 36% of NASA scientists are Indians. 34% of Microsoft employees are Indians. 28% of IBM employees are Indians. 13% of XEROX employees are! Indians. A German Magazine, Which Deals With World History Facts About India says : 1. India invented the Number system. Zero was invented by Aryabhatta. 2. The world's first University was established in Takshila in 700BC. More than 10,500 students from all over the world studied more than 60 subjects The University of Na landa built in the 4 th century BC was one of the greatest achievements of ancient India in the field of education. 3. According to the Forbes magazine, Sanskrit is the most suitable language for computer software. 4. Ayurveda is the earliest school of medicine known to humans. 5. Although western media portray modern images of India as poverty stricken and underdeveloped through political corruption, India was once the richest empire on earth. 6. The value of pi was first calculated by Budhayana, and he explained the concept of Pythagorean Theorem. His works dates to the 6 th Century which is long before the European mathematicians. 7. Algebra, trigonometry and calculus came from India . Quadratic equations by in the 11 th Century; the largest numbers the Greeks & Romans used were 106 whereas Indians used numbers as big as 1053. 8. Geological Institute of America says, India was the only source of diamonds to the world till 1896.. 9. USA based IEEE has proved that the pioneer of wireless communication was Prof. Jagdeesh Bose and not Marconi. 10. Chess Game was invented by ancient Indians. The decimal place value system was developed in India in 100 BC. 11. Sushruta is the father of surgery some 2600 years ago. He and others conducted surgeries, cesareans, cataract, fractures and urinary stones. Usage of anesthesia was well known in ancient India . Quotes about India : a. We owe a lot to the Indians, who taught us how to count, without which no worthwhile scientific discovery could have been made. By Albert Einstein b. India is the cradle of the human race, the birthplace of human speech, the mother of history, the grandmother of legend and the great grand mother of tradition. By Mark Twain c. If there is one place on the earth where all dreams of living men have found a home from the very earliest days when man began the dream of existence, it is India . By French scholar Romain Rollan d. India conquered and dominated China culturally for 20 centuries without ever having to send a single soldier across her border. By Hu Shih(former Chinese ambassador to USA ) Yes, I Say proudly, I AM AN INDIAN. Sridhar.

Sridhar and other Hindus,

Actually I have no problem with Indians. They don't cheat the other nations with false statements and useless products like Chinese... They really have a great democracy. They don't oppress the people of occupied lands as Chinese are doing on Uygurs.

Indians are peaceful, easy-going and helpful. They really have many other merits... I discovered those myself from my experiences with them.

However,

Being so insolent towards others,

and

Comments like :

"China (!) and India are Great Nations,

India is the greatest,

India invented mathematics,

India established the first university in history,

Indians are the smartest,

Indians are the richest in USA,

etc.

etc.

etc.

are only developing a dislike for your people.

See the other side of the coin, as well. They are smelling horribly and spitting on ground so frequently making nasty voices...

You shut up and let others talk about your superior qualifications, if you have any!

Uygur

Sisira.......you have a problem.....a 3rd world problem........get out of it?

Truth is bitter... hiding behind the mask Guest? most likely another spineless (possibly an Aussie descendant of those murderers and prostitutes who migrated in or around 1824)!

I find your comments as well as other's on this thread to have gotten overboard and they have nothing to do with the OP's original post and IMO totally uncalled for. While it is ok to be proud of your country it is not ok to call someone these very harsh names because they have an opinion that is not the same as yours. To insinuate that anyone's (you really have no idea what kind of person they are) ancestors are murderers and or prostitutes is not nessasary and a step past the moral boudries that most decent folks try to stay within. IMO this coment is far worse and allot more personal (because you are singling out one individual to call names at) as saying the goods made by the country they live in is crap. No doubt some of these guys (including myself) have used sorry crap tools and other items from these countries and are shy of buying more. I have respect for anyone from any country that knows what they are talking about doesn't mind taking the time to share it. I have learned much from many smart people posting on this site that live in India as well as many other countries.

The truth is I think is that most manufacturers will make the item just as good or bad as the client wants it to be no matter what country it is manufactured in. If the manufacturers want to continue to stay in business they have to meet the clients spec. with the stuff they make. It is both the company that wants to buy cheap crap and sell it high for quality and the manufacturer that substitutes inferior materials that gets this thing going. I am sure everyone has bought items that are sub standard and I have to admit that China seems to be leading the pack as far as producing crap. Maybe this is caused by low wages, unscrupulous and greedy owners/managers of either or both companies, inferior manufacturing tools and/or materials, shoddy QC dept. or by the companies that want to make a buck from it. I don't know.

I have a friend that was involved in discovering many bad flanges that were made in China on a construction job. The most common problem was that some flanges were made from two pricese of thinner plate welded together and then machined to look like they were a solid piece and random voids/ laminations found in most all of the steel. The flanges looked as good as any others and if wasn't for the A.I. catching a lamination while reviewing weld x-ray it may never have been found out. The manufacturer had went to allot of trouble to hide the fact of the flanges being sub par. Now it was clearly the manufacture that chose to lie and cheat, ignore safety and put peoples lives in danger when they did this. In the end the construction co. had to replace every "Made in China" flange on the job and it was a huge expense for them with no help at all from the manufacturer. The really bad longterm outcome of that day was that all of the many companies involved swore to never again by any piping materials that were made in China and made it their mission to inform others of their problems as well as let others know that the manufacturer would not make good and replace the flanges. Before this was over the companies involved decided to never again buy any import piping components and although that made it harder to be competitive when quoting work they didn't think the chance of loosing work was worth taking a chance on buying imports.

I own a Grizzly brand lathe mill combo machine that was made in China and it is a very well made unit. I am not a machinist by trade but I use it around the pipe shop to do light work such as beveling, making and occasional coupling, and counter boring short pipe spools and such. This equipment is usually around 30-20 % cheaper than the same level of equipment that is made in USA. I really can't afford or need to buy top notch equipment for the small amount of machine work I do but still I need a decent machine and value for my investment. I also have purchased many other tools such as power feed units, Digital read outs, drill chucks, milling vises, adaptors and so on that were made in China for Grizzly. While these tools are cheaper than some of the high end tools from the USA they are not the low end crap that you would expect to find at a Harbor Freight store. The reason IMO is: Grizzly has set the specs. high enough to eliminate crap and the manufacturer knows that it will not get the business if the item does not meet the specifications.

I only have one more thing to say to you (as you brought it up)..............check on the number of women and underage girls have been indecently assaulted or raped by taxi drivers, most of whom come from that great nation........and how they came to be taxi drivers I do not know................... most have no idea where they are going,............ their drivers licences they got from a Weetbix packet.............they do not know even the most basic of road rules.........and they try to rip you off (this has happened to me personally 3 times) and this has been a major problem.

I now refuse to catch taxis and have for some time..........I call a hire car firm.

GOODBYE

Now this guy has a taxi driver problem. Either he is very innocent or is really stupid. Most likely this guy is mentally sick!

By the way about your question whether I am native of Pakistan.

I am a Global citizen, I was born in Sri Lanka, grew up there but over the last 10 years spent more than 50% of my time away in USA,UK,India, China, Canada, Belgium, Saudi Arabia, France,Japan ...and many more.

Now that I answered your question, tell us about yourself. did your ancestors come from English Prisons? I have a feeling you are directly related to Alfred Deakin or Stanley Bruce!

I made a decision not to waste any more time on this thread (reserving my right to reply on any personal comments on myself).

Mr. Mobi, With due respect to your views, the offender most of the times escapes due to weak laws of the nation. But it happens in every country, may be unreported, as the other gender would have been a willing partner at times..

As per the statistics, the birthrate per day in our country on an average, is equal to the total population of your country. Then you can imagine, with so many people seeking employment including some to get their driving licenses, corruption is generated.

The two & four wheeler population has increased many folds in recent years, as average purchasing power of middle class has gone up enormously. Added to it is narrow roads at places, encroachments, and peak-hour heavy traffic. . Driving is no more a pleasure. Driver should be bit more smart. That is why you would have felt the difference, since you are habituated driving in broad roads, with uninterrupted traffic. Still the accident rate is better than that of many nations. Hiring a car from a private party is always better as he is your personal aide till you alight from the vehicle.

But I will definitely say, things are changing a lot and off late. Licensing is stricter. Roads are broadened in most of the places, flyovers and subways are built to ease the traffic congestion and you can see a marked difference now and it is continuous process. Sridhar

Though I thought i will not waste my time on this your post begs for a fitting reply.

When you are talking of unscrupulous business I hope you include thousand of businesses which buy Indian & Chinese goods and label them as made in Australia and sell to rest of the world. May be you did not have the exposure in International business, but I am sure those who do will confirm 'unscrupulous business practice' is a global problem and only fools get caught in such. To avoid that various internationally accepted mechanisms are there, such material certification, vendor qualification etc.

My point was Anthony asked the questions from the wrong party, from CR4 when the obvious thing is to ask the vendor. That is stupidity nothing else.

You may have to get a new pair of reading glasses, otherwise you would not ask whether I am from Pakistan. No I am not.

You seems to be disoriented and may need professional help. Please see a doctor at least for the benefit of the rest of the right minded Aussies.

I will tell you why I say so. You say you should not put this in a public forum. Then you contradict yourself by putting it there. Then you say everyone should know the truth. But then you say truth as you see it from your perspective. I am afraid you still have not realised the TRUTH because you are blinded by your racist views.

I am not bothered at all about what you think of me. May be in your confused mind you wrote it while looking at yourself in a mirror!

Anthony's problem is that without verifying from his vendor (which is the most sensible thing to do) he makes disparaging remarks based on speculation.

Do not worry about my life, as I said before i live a beautiful life. I have everything I need in my life and I cannot ask for more than that.

I just stirred egos of 2 shit heads, but will it qualify me to become a shit stirrer? (may be from your perspective)

Thanks you Sridhar for making it very clear for an universal perspective not just as MOBI puts it "my perspective"

May be MOBI would have had better understanding of heterogeneous culture people by going through monumental work written over the five decades, by Will Durant, an American and the greatest historian. He created "The Story of Philosophy" in 11 volumes to create integral history encompassing art, culture, philosophy, religion etc.

Incidentally MOBI can be clearer of his loaded question "By the way sisira are you a native of Pakistan?"

Extremely regretful indeed a respectable engineering forum like CR4 is being allowed as platform for repeated racial slender.

Normally I am not the type to hurt other's sentiments (or) feelings as long as it is not intentional. But we Indians are tend to be more philosophical (one of main our weakness) and less aggressive by nature. That is why we are being bullied by our small neighbors as well as by some far away nations also. But when we determine, we can prove to be equal or better than others also.

May be, every individual from every nation will feel the same way.

I only request my friends to put a stop, move away from this thread and concentrate more on Technical issues and help others where ever possible.

Thanks. Sridhar.

Dear friends,

I echo and second Sridhar (posting #72)

Please do not waste your precious time trying to reason with the likes MOBI. It is impossible.

He understands only self importance.

People beyond the realm of learning from others are quite incapable of a decent, civil and intelligent dialogue!

It is best to move on to technical dialogue and forget the silliness of this kind people who but represent small fraction of West.

This will not be first or the last time we hear of them.

Hi Mobi,

Now what you have to say after reading posts nos.65 to 70?. Better tender a decent applogy to all instead of just keeping mum.

Suresh Sharma.

You ask your vendor to ship all steel with traceable Material Test Reports, heat numbers on the steel that match the MTR. This should not cost anymore than to get the steel without the reports because most vendors will require the companies they bought it from to supply them. Try to not use vendors that you do not know or trust to supply your steels. This sounds like a fork lift scrape and poor handling scenario. I have seen it many times when carbon steel is stored near or allowed to scrape stainless. One of the worst contaminations I have witnessed is when a helper went down a new S/S pipe line buffing S/S welds with carbon steel power brush. Some fork lift drivers that are aware of these contaminations should be able to figure out ways to rig and transport the S/S plate without contaminating it. A simple set of S/S fork covers would probably fix the problem. A good pickling and passivating should be done to eliminate the existing rust. I would also suggest taking a sample from each plate and have it analyzed. If you need to be sure this is the only way to know what type of steel you are buying.

sir,

Best way to get fine material in stainless steel is by way of accepting material from n bralco resources inc.canada.web:www.amit.com

best regards.

durgesh

Using the words "Idiot" & "Moron" is just someone banging away at their keyboards, and has no meaning, or place on this site - in fact, those words IMHO should get you banned ...

Have a great life....

Sridhar and other Hindus,

Actually I have no problem with Indians. They don't cheat the other nations with false statements and useless products like Chinese... They really have a great democracy. They don't oppress the people of occupied lands as Chinese are doing on Uygurs.

Indians are peaceful, easy-going and helpful. They really have many other merits... I discovered those myself from my experiences with them.

However,

Being so insolent towards others,

and

Comments like :

"China (!) and India are Great Nations,

India is the greatest,

India invented mathematics,

India established the first university in history,

Indians are the smartest,

Indians are the richest in USA,

etc.

etc.

etc."

are only developing a dislike for your people.

See the other side of the coin, as well. They are smelling horribly and spitting on ground so frequently making nasty voices...

You shut up and let others talk about your superior qualifications, if you have any!

Uygur

First of all you are afraid to identify yourself for others and you have no business to poke your sweating nose in the ongoing. You have also no idea about the difference between Hindus & Indians, hence you could have refrained from putting your dirty fingers on the key-board.

I only gave a past history culture and scientific knowledge of the ancestors of the land and added some of our present generation personalities since you will not talk about it even if you want to.

If you liked it enjoy reading it, otherwise you could have shut up your mind and be blind to it. We care less for you, No more replies from me on this topic even if I am provoked. Thanks. sridhar.

Realities :

Yes. I am very much afraid of you.

My nose is not always sweating.

I have "some" ideas about the differences btwn Indians & Hindus. in 1990, an Indian boy (most probably a Tamil - I don't remember clearly) was telling me that cow's urine is sacred and drinkable.

My fingers are not dirty for the moment.

Some of the information you listed about India & Indians were incorrect.

I didn't enjoy reading your message.

Shall we put a stop to the slanging match that this blog has become? Bitterness has a nasty habit of spreading and the sooner we realize this the better it is for everyone! Quite predictably we have long since forgotten what the original issue was all about.

To all those that have made a positive contribution thank-you

We have return the material but decided to get a sample tested to determine what it is....

Anthony

www.alnoproductservices.com.au

Thanks You Mr. Anthony. That is the best and positive approach.

As you rightly said, please check the chemistry. I am not sure, but it could be even a straight chrome steel also (or) rusted due to contamination.

We are as curious as you , to know the outcome of your tests and Please enlighten us of the results. Sridhar.

Dear Sir,

I am welcoming your deciesion after testing give the outcome of the test that will be beneficial to every body.Go with positive approach and you will be rise up to peak with this positive attitude and share all those things who will be beneficial to you and others.

Anil

Suggestions:

1.first thing,when you are purchasing high quality stainless steel,you should get a chemical report from the supplier to find out which grade of stainless steel they are using.

2.rust issue:this mainly occurs due to the oil they are using,then maybe cleaning procedure.

3.we had this issue of rust in one of our factories supplying stainless steel parts,the problem was solved after we changed the oil.

Best regards,

savio

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