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Frequency Increase Through VFD

10/09/2009 5:53 AM

Dear All,

how much can the frequency of a motor can be increased through a VFD?

I have seen in some cable plant, where the winders motors (conventional) were being run through VFDs at frequency as high as 120 Hz.

What could be the advantages and the disadvantages for the motor health, power consumption and process control.

Regards

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#1

Re: Frequency inrease through VFD

10/09/2009 6:07 AM

Power consumption is the product of the load torque and the load speed at the motor output shaft, plus a bit more for motor internal losses, the fan, etc..

At 120Hz, the motor is going to run warmer for the same power output as at 50Hz, though its fan is also going 120/50 times as fast. So the best thing to do is to contact the motor's manufacturer for advice.

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#2

Re: Frequency inrease through VFD

10/09/2009 7:05 AM

Remember, VFD's only converts the AC mains fixed values into variable voltage and frequency to provide infinitely variable speed control of 3-phase and single AC Motors and that continous control is is provided by matching motor speed to the specific demand for that application. Example: you can't use a 33kw VFD for 15kw Motor.

In a typical AC motor the stator's magnetization changes with supply frequency which produces a rotating magnetic field causes the rotor to rotate as it tries to catch the stator magnetic field. VFD's are soft start devices and hence eliminate the problem of water hammer.

Some of advantages are: smoother operations, increases motor life span; increased quality and productivity; overall performance of the motor is controlled; Power consumption is low and cost saving; increased in quality and productivity.

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#3

Re: Frequency Increase Through VFD

10/09/2009 3:19 PM

A VFD is technically capable of putting out any frequency, but most manufacturers limit it to practical specs, i.e. 400Hz maximum. That does not mean however that any motor can be operated at that speed.

Once you increase the frequency above the design frequency of the motor at the rated voltage, the motor can only operate in Constant HP mode. This is because you need voltage to mach the frequency applied at the same ratio as the design levels. So for example, a 460V 60Hz motor is designed to accept a V/Hz ratio of 7.7:1 (460/60) so as long as you can maintain that ratio, the torque remains constant. But if you are doing that, and the frequency goes above 60Hz, how are you going to keep the ratio the same? You will run out of voltage at 460V. So what happens is the ratio diminishes, and with it the output torque, at the square of the voltage difference. So at 120Hz, the motor is getting 1/2 of the voltage required to maintain torque at that speed, so the output torque will have dropped to .5 x .5 or 25% of the original rated torque of the motor.

One trick you can do however is to use a motor rated for less than your supply voltage. So for instance, if you have 460V, use a motor rated for 230V. Then program the VFD to provide 60Hz at 230V, the design rating of the motor, and if you need to run at 120Hz, you will be giving it 460V at 120Hz. This will effectively double the HP capacity of the motor, but of course, that will be at the higher speed. The motor cooling becomes a problem however, because not only will the motor losses increase proportionately, but often times the cooling fans no longer function effectively at that speed. Hence the earlier advice that you really must check wit the motor mfr. before doing this. There is also the issue of the speed rating of the bearings in the motor. most are not rated for use beyond about 150% of design speed.

There are motors designed to be run at high frequencies and speeds however, they are usually referred to as "spindle motors" and are significantly more expensive that standard off-the-shelf AC motors.

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#4
In reply to #3

Re: Frequency Increase Through VFD

10/09/2009 9:50 PM

It is good answer.

I have a question about the trick you mentioned. When the 230 V motor is supplied with 460V at 120Hz, how does the insulation of the motor sustain with this voltage?

- MS

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#10
In reply to #4

Re: Frequency Increase Through VFD

10/12/2009 10:56 PM

It depends on the motor manufacturer, so again you must consult with them. But MOST manufacturers do not bther to keep multiple types of magnet wire in their manufacturing process, so they use the same for all voltages, meaning it is rated for the highest voltage they produce.

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#5
In reply to #3

Re: Frequency Increase Through VFD

10/10/2009 5:46 AM

As you say, most VFDs can operate with a V/f ratio covering rated voltage at 25 up to 400Hz. Most common motors are specified at rated supply voltage at 50 or 60Hz.

The rated frequency of the motor is the Base frequency which is coupled with the rated voltage at this Base Hz to give the ratio characteristic for VFD operation.

Above the Base Hz you correctly advise theoretical constant HP, so at double the rated speed, this would be 1/2 torque, not 1/4 as you stated. Of course, motor losses increase with friction and windage making a standard motor audibly noisier. So, in practice, maybe a little less should be used compared to theoretical. The performance of the motor at higher Hz (supersynchronous) is also a function of maximum pullout torque for this motor as a ratio of the square of the voltage applied vs theoretical multiplied by peak pullout e.g. if at 460V / 120Hz on 460V / 60Hz motor then voltage is 1/2 of required constant torque voltage (920V), square this gives 1/4 and if max motor pullout is 240% then max will be 1/4 x 240% = 60%. If you wanted constant power so your torque demand is 50% then this is OK. If demand goes to 60% the motor stalls very quickly. If max was 200%, you'd be at absolute limit at 50% torque so don't do!!

Another consideration is the speed holding or slip characteristic which is different when operating supersynchronous - the slip curve will 'flatten' giving more slip for the same load changes at different Hz (as you are increasingly undervolting the motor at high Hz.

Going back to the original query, the main reason to do this is to:

1. get a wider speed range of operation as the low speed performance will determine minimum Hz, probably

2. have a higher starting torque capability

3. reduced motor torque at lower Hz means you can have a benefit running at lower speeds without overheating on constant torque applications

The mechanical motor design speed capability should be checked with the supplier but most motors up to 7.5kW have common designs for different pole numbers, so if you use a 4 pole, 120Hz is only 2 pole speed which it's designed for normally anyway. Vibration will, of course, increase with speed. I've seen standard 50Hz motors operate up to 180Hz on the 50Hz connection in some applications

Normally, operating at 230 or 400/460V should have no impact on insulation since this should be selected to be more than 2 x line to line whatever on any decent motor, if in doubt, check with the supplier again.

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#6
In reply to #3

Re: Frequency Increase Through VFD

10/10/2009 5:59 AM

beware that motors designed to run at higher frequencies are very expensive and usually purpose built. My questions is why would you want a motor to run at 120Hz plus? What is the application?

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#11
In reply to #3

Re: Frequency Increase Through VFD

10/23/2009 1:45 AM

Sir is their any effect on the power consumption of the motor also when it runs at high frequency? does it increase??

And what are the other losses that happen??

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#12
In reply to #11

Re: Frequency Increase Through VFD

10/23/2009 10:02 AM

The power consumption due to motor speed increase is normally insignificant, higher frictional losses and windage being the main difference.

Of course, if you are running your machine faster and this requires more power, this will mean higher motor load. If you overload the motor at higher frequencies, the motor efficiency will suffer and again you will have increased motor loss accordingly so this implies that your selection and protection are important if this is your case.

However, since you require constant power (I think) then your machine maximum speed will be the same but you are adjusting the motor gearing to get best performance envelope is the way I interpreted your post. Therefore, extra losses at the motor will be minimal.

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#7

Re: Frequency Increase Through VFD

10/10/2009 6:08 AM

one very large disadvantage would be the increase in Harmonics generated, you would need to ensure you can filter out them out, something to consider

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#8

Re: Frequency Increase Through VFD

10/10/2009 10:41 AM

Another potential problem is that you have to make sure you do not exceed the maximium mechanical speed of the motor.

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#9

Re: Frequency Increase Through VFD

10/12/2009 9:07 PM

Be carefull not all motors can run on VFD consult manufacturer. Motor losses for a given HP increases as the cube of RPM therefore 100 % 0verspeed on a standard motor would be pushing the envelope a lot

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