Dynamite - A Force for Peace or War?

I battled a Rock face once, while attempting to carve a hiking path to a beautiful waterfall. I was working for the USDA Forest Service at the time. Dynamite was definitely the weapon of choice... followed closely by pick axes and shovels.

I know the long told epic battle between Coyote and Roadrunner is sometimes fought with dynamite... though, the weapon tends to lean towards epic failure each and every time, leaving the poor coyote with blackened fur and missing whiskers.

I know of no specific instances, however it was probably used for structure demolition (such as bridges) during some battles (or when nothing else was available). Perhaps WW2 or similar resistance operations?

From Wiki

Dynamite is predominantly used in the mining, quarrying, and construction industries and has had historical use in warfare, but the unstable nature of nitroglycerin, especially if subjected to freezing, has rendered it obsolete for modern military use.

Of course it's all a bit of an educated guess. As for throwing dynamite, ahh no, not a very good weapon at all.

Nobel also invented nitrocellulose (smokeless powder) and that has certainly been used in warfare. Supposedly it was his purchase of the weapons manufacturer Bofors that settled him as a profiteer in war.

I don't necessarily agree with that tack. I had a good friend who worked at Martin Lockheed in missile technology, specifically missile re-entry (targeting). I argued that the better he did his job the fewer people would be harmed. Maybe it can't be settled and it's perspective.

TNT (trinitrotoluene) has been used and still is in military applications but I don't know if Alfred Nobel has any connection to it. I think about Nobel sometimes and wonder what life was like for him. Reportedly he was in love once and died alone, without an children.

Does anyone know of any instances when dynamite was used as a weapon in a specific battle?

Efficiencies wasn't the best, but a guess may be the resistance in WWII

The other point,

I have heard several prominent people on the news remark that it is "ironic" that the Nobel Peace prize was created by the inventor of dynamite, Alfred Nobel.

Its strange about this but like the inventor of Gatling Gun was Dr. Richard Jordan Gatling which I thought was ironic...a doctor inventing a weapon like that, until you hear his reasoning......about making such a terrible weapon that no one would want to go to war.

p911

Dear Phoenix,

There are countless quirks of history wherein Doctors certainly take various means and ways to achieve posterity. Among these :

1.I refer to : Louis Pasteur who as a Chimiste first started, among other aims, with the study of the silk worms and their diseases( Lyons, was then a center of the silk trade). He made it with what would be known today as : food technologist for his discoveries in the preservation of milk.

2.As for Doctor Louis Guillotin, and contrary to the association of his name to the infamous historical machine , was not in fact its : inventor. He had been responsable in "suggesting it to the then French Revolutionnary Government that an italian machine - at the time well known in Europe - be used to reduce the horrible suffering following faulty executions " Promptly he was then asked to : perfect it !

One has to wonder whether Dr Guillotin ( as did Dr Nobel ) would have had pangs of conscience before facing their own : Fate. Whatever Nobel did , his lasting effort at obviously making amends - i.e. promoting Peace - has handed three ( or is it now four ? ) USA Presidents the opportunity to encourage and foster peace. His other rewards to various researches are rightly and , highly , regarded. Whether or not dynamite was ever used in war I will await other contributors to provide answers.

May I suggest , that what comes to mind is :

Should we do away with the : Messenger ?

Or:

those who , having received the : honour , do not live up to its aims ?

Labor Omnia Vincit

Hey : Guest : What : is : with : the ":" in : your : post : ? :

It : is : rather : annoying : no : ? :

food technologist for his discoveries in the preservation of milk.

Milk is the beverage pasteurization is tied to, but that was not the beverage Pasteur initially intended for pasteurization.

More to the OP as Dr Guillotine is concerned, the family went as far as changing their name than be tie to the machine.

p911

The development of dynamite was for peaceful use but his work with making nitroglycerin safe may not have been. His father the owner of an armament company made naval mines. It's use may have been for that just that the war came to an end and the company folded before final development.

I saw something on the History Channel - Band of Brothers, maybe - where paratroopers carried dynamite (or maybe TNT - if there is a difference) to blow the barrels out of captured cannons.

And, of course, it was used to great purpose in Where Eagles Dare.

Nobel's great contribution wasn't in the creation of an explosive, but the creation of a safe and easily handled explosive - thus saving many lives. But his legacy seems to stem from guilt. From wiki:

The erroneous publication in 1888 of a premature obituary of Nobel by a French newspaper, condemning him for his invention of dynamite, is said to have brought about his decision to leave a better legacy after his death.^[2] The obituary stated Le marchand de la mort est mort ("The merchant of death is dead") and went on to say, "Dr. Alfred Nobel, who became rich by finding ways to kill more people faster than ever before, died yesterday."

(or maybe TNT- if there is a difference)

There are differences between TNT and dynamite which make TNT greatly preferred over dynamite.

The erroneous publication in 1888 of a premature obituary of Nobel by a French newspaper, condemning him for his invention of dynamite, is said to have brought about his decision to leave a better legacy after his death.^[2] The obituary stated Le marchand de la mort est mort ("The merchant of death is dead") and went on to say, "Dr. Alfred Nobel, who became rich by finding ways to kill more people faster than ever before, died yesterday."

It's statements like this that clearly indicate that even 100 years ago you shouldn't trust everything you read written by a biased reporter with no actual knowledge of the areas he/she is discussing (which was specifically the evils of dynamite).

The same reporters probably said that the wright brothers airplane was a fake (because the French couldn't replicate it in the initial designs) and that the maxim gun has no useful purpose on the battlefield ("you call that portable? How are solders suppost to run into battle carrying that compared to a rifle").

I bet the first world war woke them up to the "real world".

He also invented Gelignite which has been used in warfare,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gelignite

Quite an odd post on Wiki. Not all countries use the term Dynamite, in Australia Gelignite is the Nobel trade name for Dynamite and these days does not contain nitroglycerine, instead being an Ammonium Nitrate based product. The product is branded AN50 or AN60 commonly the number being a percentage performance of Blasting Gelatine. The colloquial term is "Jelly". The Diggers at Gallipoli were reputed to have used "exploding jam tins" filled with "jelly" as hand grenades.

All weapons of mass destruction can be tools of peace. Destroy everything so that no one is left to disturb the peace. How about the Colt Peacemaker?

It is an essential commodity in the arsenal odf terrorists in India.

http://iisc.wordpress.com/2008/07/24/bangalore-bomb-blasts-of-july-2008/

vasim Says:

Jul 24, 2008 at 22:35

Some info related to the bomb blast material Gelatin…

Gelignite, also known as blasting gelatin, is an explosive material consisting of collodion-cotton (a type of nitrocellulose or gun cotton) dissolved in nitroglycerine and mixed with wood pulp and sodium nitrate or potassium nitrate. Its composition makes it easily moldable and safe to handle without protection, as long as it is not near anything capable of detonating it. One of the cheapest explosives, it burns slowly and cannot explode without a detonator, so it can be stored safely. It was invented in 1875 by Alfred Nobel, who had earlier invented dynamite. Unlike dynamite, gelignite does not suffer from the dangerous problem of sweating, the leaking of unstable nitroglycerine from the solid matrix.

Roger Pink,

Nobel Prizes have been awarded annually since 1901 for achievements in:

Physics (decided by the Royal Swedish Academy of Sciences)
Chemistry (decided by the Royal Swedish Academy of Sciences)
Physiology or Medicine (decided by the Karolinska Institute)
Literature (decided by the Swedish Academy)
Peace (decided by a committee appointed by the Norwegian Storting)
Economics (decided by the Royal Swedish Academy of Sciences)

The economics prize has no foundation in Nobel's will, and is not paid by his money, it is technically not a Nobel prize (and the present Nobel family does not accept it as such). It is however awarded together with the other Nobel prizes.The prize was instituted in 1968 by Sveriges Riksbank, the Bank of Sweden, as the "Nobel Memorial Prize in Economic Sciences".

In 1968, the decision was made not to add any more prizes "in memory of Nobel" in the future.

In February of 1995, it was decided that the economics prize be essentially defined as a prize in social sciences, opening the Nobel Prize to great contributions in fields like political science, psychology, and sociology. Also, the economics prize committee was changed to require two non-economists to decide the prize each year, whereas previously the prize committee had consisted of five economists.

Jon

"Does anyone know of any instances when dynamite was used as a weapon in a specific battle?"

Only in the movies by guys like John Wayne.

A biography of Alfred Nobel suggests a guilt ridden man as one reason for his creation of the Nobel Peace Prize. Why he should have felt guilty for our misapplication of his genious is a question that will not likely get answered. That question will lay right along side recent questions and the bewilderment at the selection of recipients.

L.J.

What I remember from Nobel's biography was that initially his explosives were so unstable, they would blow up the people setting them up or transporting them, for example ships would explode in harbours... So he felt responsible for the damage his creation brought to other people.

Also I think the families of those who died because of unstable dynamite started blaming Nobel, with newspapers playing a part in all this.

Any sensible person would start having remorse if hundreds of workers die handling your great discovery that made you rich, right? Sorta makes sense to me...

Patricia a,

By the same token bad drivers and their families should blame automobile manufacturers for their accidents and the autoworkers and their employers should have remorse for the many thousands of bad drivers and their victims who are injured and killed each year.

Jon

Feelings of guilt are of a personal prerogative.

He lost a younger brother to one of those mishaps in handling nitroglycerin which may be the motivation in the development of dynamite. Handling nitroglycerin would have been a lot more hazardous. Even with the loss of life of handling dynamite he saved many more.

The guilt may come from the Crimean War and the lives lost to weapons the family manufactured.

Ironic could be described as a media buzz word directing attention away from the user of questionable understanding to an issue, fueling import of discussion by the confused.

How ironic!

Yeh....... and how doe's that have to do with the dynamite?????

Hi,

Alfred Nobel not only lost relatives from unexpected explosions but all the seven factories in Europe blew up one after another. Then he was forbidden to produce any more nitro-glycerine in Sweden but circumvented this by building a small factory on a boat on one of Sweden's beautiful lakes. (Until this blew up too).

The invention of Dynamite was more unintentional - not at all by research.

The nitro-glycerine was transported to the sites to use in glass bottles surrounded and encapsulated by Kieselgur. As one of the bottles broke without blasting all of them and the other bottles the oily fluid was sucked by the Kieselgur to a mixture that was not exploded by usual means. So they started there with further development to result with Dynamite.

The significance for weapon development was not so straightforward but they learned at that time that mixtures may be much more inert than the individual components.

So the search for other maybe useful ingredients pretty soon resulted in the different forms of nitro-cellulose. And its instability if not fabricated well. Also these factories blew up one after another until they learned that the last minute amounts of acid has to be removed to give reasonable stability without self-ignition.

Only then was the mixture stable for storage. And the search was on for other "nitros".

Then resulted meltable explosives. And the corresponding igniters.

This all was a network of inventions and developments which led to the diversified world of "modern" explosives and a lot of knowledge "how to".

Any of these developments contributed to war-time use and some to peaceful use.

So the question is answered by: Dynamite - A Force for Peace and War!

RHABE

ROGER PINK,

Recently I had finished reading a book on INVENTIONS THAT CHANGED THE WORLD. The informations found about ALFRED NOBEL, the Swedish scientist is given below as matter of reply to your post.

Alfred Nobel's father Immanuel Nobel was a researcher and explosive mines expert.He set a precedent by creating mines for the Navy, using hollow pieces of wood, filled with explosives.

THE BRITISH ROYAL NAVY IN THE CRIMEAN WAR OF 1853 TO 1856 successfully used these mines.

Later Alfred Nobel also was attracted to his father's field and started working on safety of NITROGLYCERIN[ a temperature sensitive combination of glycerin and sulphuric acid]. Alfred Nobel could improve the stability of nitroglycerin by adapting a mixture of nitroglycerin and wood power, subsequently to wood pulp- the whole finding reduced unexpected explosion risks of mines / dynamite.

During the course of his joint research Alfred Nobel's brother died of an explosion, which moved him much.

Whereas no specific reference to the use of DYNAMITEs in wars, there was a an increased tendency of ARMS RACE and dynamite was also a preferred defence/ offence utility in all nations.

Nobel's secretary [ who was awarded NOBEL PRIZE for her BOOK] BERTHA VON SUTTNER wrote a book on LAY DOWN YOUR ARMS, which moved the mind of ALFRED NOBEL and he instituted the NOBEL PRIZE for constructive contributors in science, literature, politics and peace, which he found solace and justification against arms race.

Hope this information is of some use to your search.

"Later Alfred Nobel also was attracted to his father's field and started working on safety of NITROGLYCERIN[ a temperature sensitive combination of glycerin and sulphuric acid]. Alfred Nobel could improve the stability of nitroglycerin by adapting a mixture of nitroglycerin and wood power, subsequently to wood pulp- the whole finding reduced unexpected explosion risks of mines / dynamite."

Hi,

most of this is not at all correct.

Alfred Nobel started large scale industrial production of nitro-glycerin, had in operation 7 or 8 (may be more ) factories all over Europe, all blew up by accidents as they did not know how to stabilise. First stabilisation was by Kieselgur or diatomaceous earth, found in large amounts in Northern Germany, 30 km from one of the factories. I got to know as I grew up nearby. Later then wood powder was used as this can be better than the inert diatomaceous earth.

Sulfuric acid is used in the production of nitroglycerine, but not present in the nitroglycerine. It has to attract the water that is produced by the reaction of nitrous acid and glycerine. By decanting and washing any traces of the acids are removed to yield the nitroglycerine. If not very clean in production and nearly totally free of acid then self igniting is happening sometimes. This blew up the factories until near 1900 the purification and its importance was known.

RHABE

S.Udhhayamarthandam,

"combination of glycerin and sulphuric acid"

Do you find it odd that the explosive made from glycerin and sulphuric acid is called NITROglycerin?

Actually it was made using 50% nitric acid and 50% sulphuric acid with glycerin.

Jon

Thanks for the correction- It should be like this

The explosive mines were combination of nitroglycerin and sulphuric acid ,prone to temperature sensitive unpredictable explosions.

Rest of the post matters are from the reference book and nothing of my own.

Regards.

S.U,

I read that the nitric and sulpuric acids were in a 50-50 mix that were used with glycerin to produce the explosive. After reading that I wondered about the naming of the resulting explosive material.

Your contribution is good in spite of the small discrepancy.

Jon

No, no, no,

get some basic books about chemistry and you will find:

glycerin is only one of the many chemicals that can accept one or more nitrous groups.

You know certainly others as cellulose, benzene, toluene, glycol.

A nitrous group is NO2, derived from nitrous acid (HNO3) by stripping H and O and stripping another H from the other molecule, water is the resulting byproduct.

This water is heavily attracted by the concentrated sulfuric acid. Nothing else is the function of the sulfuric acid. It needs (together with residual nitrous acid) to be removed after completion of the reaction to get a substance that is not susceptible to self-ignition.

Get some basic chemical textbooks, you will find this. Or get some support from a professional chemist.

Nobody is expected to do this do it yourself!

A few drops may cost you the fingers.

If you cannot resist, try with cotton and cold.

Wash very carefully and try by burning pieces of 1g each first, in open air only and store small pieces of the material in a big rubber or polyethylene container (not inside any house), so that no unexpected problems will occur if the whole stuff blows up.

Avoid any glass - pieces of glass are difficult to find in x-ray assisted surgery.

And get some informed proof on any of your statements, else you will yield a lot of yoking remarks.

RHABE

RHABE,

Thank you for the correction.I am a hobby chemist having my own chemical laboratory. What scares me always is the concentrated inorganic acids. It is a real wonder how people manage manufacture and handle these risky products[ of course they form raw material for so many chemical synthesis].

Nitric acid is normally skipped in applied processes, excepting for nitration process of organics.

It is out of the risks taken by chemists, that lot of products have come out of chemistry.

My liking is always -EXPLOITATION OF SCIENCE FOR POSITIVE PURSUITS.

Dynamite is a positive use if used for mining and civil usage & deadly if used for destruction purposes. The very gesture of NOBEL PRIZE ,about the use of Science for peace.

If mutual trust takes place between people and countries, no need for arms and military-rather it can be a rescue force meant for emergency and civilian discipline.

It is with the same theme that RABINDRANATH TAGORE was given NOBEL PRIZE for his work GEETANJALI- a world without boundries and sense and reality of global brotherhood,

I THINK CR4 IS CLOSER TO THAT IDEAL. Is It? Any one give a G.A ?