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Starting a Circuit with Capacitor Discharge

10/19/2009 5:58 PM

I want to accomplish starting a portion of my circuit with the discharge of my capacitors. I will have an excess discharge of over 600 joules, "if I shut the device down in the capacitor".

My question is can it be done?

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#1

Re: starting my circuit with capacitor discharge

10/19/2009 7:04 PM

It depends on the application, the circuit, the current required, the operating voltage range of your circuit, etc.

"if I shut the device down in the capacitor"

Do you mean you want to run your circuit entirely off a pre-charged capacitor or capacitor bank?

Can you supply more details and explain exactly what are you trying to do and what your circuit is.

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#4
In reply to #1

Re: starting my circuit with capacitor discharge

10/19/2009 8:13 PM

It depends on the application, the circuit, the current required, the operating voltage range of your circuit, etc.

My power demand is 30 W @117 V, this part of the circuit is fed by a normal US 120 VAC.

The capacitor side is in excess of 5KV and in excess of 35 uF thus the input of X joules.

Do you mean you want to run your circuit entirely off a pre-charged capacitor or capacitor bank?

Interresting question.? After the initial charging of the capacitors and shutdown, if and only if at this time the caps stay charged then starting this 30 watts will only take I guess 1 to 2 microseconds before the normal operating seniero.

wow I guess that is why I am asking the question.

Can you supply more details and explain exactly what are you trying to do and what your circuit is.

you will not understand my circuit. it is not normal.

If you cannot reply I understand. This is not finished but when it is I will gladly show everything to anyone who is interrested.

Stay in touch Zane

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#7
In reply to #4

Re: starting my circuit with capacitor discharge

10/19/2009 11:41 PM

you will not understand my circuit. it is not normal.

I still don't quite understand what you are trying to do (which is a big disadvantage when trying to answer a question).

From the additional information supplied it sounds like you are building a pulse discharge circuit (coil gun, can/coin crusher, electrical discharge generator, etc) and need a way to safely initiate the discharge (rather than using a big switch). This is a common application and there are simple ways to safely initiate the discharge.

Am I close?

Any additional information you can supply would be helpful.

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#8
In reply to #7

Re: starting my circuit with capacitor discharge

10/19/2009 11:56 PM

Jack OAT, very nice guess but a million miles off. But I look at thoes types of projects as minutia. No offence to anyone doing this.

I am using an induction system to build a generator that will develope 40,000 V magnetic induction and into the cap, then off we go...

So after the initial startup I think it would be awesome to shut this generator off with a simple switch that eliminates the auto discharge of the caps so I can use that same discharge to start the unit again. I am just talking about letting this stored energy jumpstart an allready pluged in device at the working end of this device.

does this help?

Zane

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#11
In reply to #8

Re: starting my circuit with capacitor discharge

10/20/2009 2:23 PM

But I look at thoes types of projects as minutia

What is minutia?

Sorry but I still don't quite understand, but I think I get the picture (is english your second language perhaps?).

After having a look at your comments and the information supplied it appears to be a high voltage 40kV induction generator which is started by a 12 V battery hooked up to a 300 Watt inverter, stepped up to over 5kV (stored in the capacitors) which is used to start the generator which then runs by itself (self powered once running), which is why you want to disconnect the capacitors once the generator is running.

In short, an overunity generator. It could be one of a few other things, but given your comments I don't think it is any of those.

Anyway if this is the case, from my experience you are unlikely to be intested in any creative critisism from real scientests and engineers on the subject of pesudoscience, so I won't bother (see my numerous posts over the years on all manor of subjects if you are interested).

With regard to the actual question on disconnecting the capacitors, the common way in the industry is to use a special switch made from a long insulated pushrod (commonly fibreglass) with a metal half ball on the end contacting a fixed metal half ball. The pushrod is spring actuated for fast opening and has a large air gap when open to break any arc (due to load inductance). The complete assembly is encased in insulating panels (transparent if possible) for safety (perspex workes well), and is generally custom made by the user for the application.

Also see previous threads on CR4 on the subject of high voltage switches (there may be some links and pictures of this assembly provided), or try the internet.

Hopefully this answers your capacitor disconnect switch question, for further advice check out previous threads on CR4 on the subject of high voltage experimentation for lots of additional safety advice and advice on testing, verifying and validating results.

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#12
In reply to #11

Re: starting my circuit with capacitor discharge

10/20/2009 5:08 PM

Sorry but I still don't quite understand, but I think I get the picture (is english your second language perhaps?).

Minutia as I referred.

Maybe American english is your second language.

Crushing cans and makeing as big a spark as your math lets you, are simpleton projects in my opinion.

Please don't try to show me how supersilious my understanding of electricty is to you, obviously are too familiar with all the laws of electricty to want to see for yourself.

As you know, electrons and magnetism are two sides of the same coin. and untill youu expose the oposite side you will not have any current, or the voltage. What I am doing is storing up many KV of Flux and when I say so, it is allowed to expose both sides of the coin. At this point you will have more power than you ever imagined at your fingertips. When I am fully capable with my own verbatim skills on this subject, and can show the long known laws of these physics involved, I will dialoge with you about the scientific merrits here discussed.

Jack I highly respect your responces and to let you know; you have figured out what my project is. You do not understand it correctly or you would do it yourself.

I had invisioned somthing like what you pictured. although I am not able to spend the needed resources to build that component I believe it is just what I need for the power disconnect. I will return here to examine this on-off switch later when I am able to encorporate it into my device.

I will gladly give you all my research material.

Please keep in touch

Zane

dzndlideas@aol.com

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#13
In reply to #12

Re: starting my circuit with capacitor discharge

10/20/2009 5:44 PM

Your dictionary links arn't all working, it says those words dont exist in the dictionary. Just FYI

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#14
In reply to #12

Re: starting my circuit with capacitor discharge

10/20/2009 6:08 PM

Jack I highly respect your responces and to let you know; you have figured out what my project is. You do not understand it correctly or you would do it yourself.

Good to know that my powers of observation and rational thinking based on available information and personal past experiences are up to the task of figuring out what people want based on little information given.

It really does save time if enough information is given at the start as most of the time spent here (and on many other threads on CR4) by people is guesswork and asking for more enough information to answer the original question (which is hardly helpful to the original posters of questions).

Please don't try to show me how supersilious my understanding of electricty is to you, obviously are too familiar with all the laws of electricty to want to see for yourself.

I wouldn't dream of it, and with so little information supplied it isn't possible to discuss in any depth anyway.

In the mean time don't forget to look at the previous CR4 threads for further advice on the subject of experimentation and prototype design testing for lots of additional safety advice and advice on testing, verifying and validating results. Good practical stuff and vital for validating and testing results where cutting-edge research and development is concerned.

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#15
In reply to #12

Re: starting my circuit with capacitor discharge

10/20/2009 6:25 PM

Oh FYI, it really isn't a good idea to post your email address on an open internet forum as you will likely get spammed. Even worse if you include detailed contact information (or even a home address).

It does however allow people to get a better understanding of the poster by looking at what they have previously wrote on other websites, which can help in better understanding how to answer or tailor answers to his/her questions.

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#16
In reply to #8

Re: starting my circuit with capacitor discharge

10/20/2009 11:46 PM

We judge people, based on clues we get from their type of question, how it's expressed and how the technical language and concepts are used.

"... 40,000V magnetic induction.....", inability to design a simple circuit to switch capacitors in and out of a circuit. Judging other projects as minutia (when you mean TRIVIAL). Priceless

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#17
In reply to #16

Re: starting my circuit with capacitor discharge

10/21/2009 12:53 AM

Your Interpritation is amazing, Priceless indeed.

You make an interresting comment, can't design a simple circuit that deals with 40,000 V of magnetic induction at a capacitor holding 600 joules each . Hummm. it may sound stupid to you, but it sounds like somthing big to me. I do not know if this thing could discharge 1/16" static shock or 4". any ways, others have called this dangerous high Voltage that can kill a person. Yes I am ignorant of your silly answer but I am not to proud to ask for an answer. Annalize me any way you want. But face it, you do not want to contribute in any helpfull way. LOOSER.

Please don't humor us with any more indignent coments. I came here to get as you suggest some infantile information. but choose to judge my ignorance and communication skills as a confused person??? What planet are you from? or why am I listening to a guy who has over 400 posts and umpteen good answers? Some no-it all I guess. I think you have spent my two cents on this subject.

I would not make a can crusher or a ray gun because my project perameters would not encumpus such trivial minutia.

It is not the varied project, (Trivial) that I called minutia, asy you propose, it is the known and varied outcome is minutia. I tried not to offend anyone as stated. clean your glasses.

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#2

Re: starting my circuit with capacitor discharge

10/19/2009 7:04 PM

Can this be done, yes. Should this be done by somebody unsure asking on an open engineering site NO!!!!!

This is definitely something in the category that if you have to ask then you're not qualified to be doing this. For 600 Joules to be stored on a 120 μF will require over 3000 volts.

√(2*600J/(120μF)=√1.2*103/(1.2*10-4))V=√(107)V≈3160V

You will require some very special capacitors to be able to contain and steer this kind of energy, regardless of the capacitance value chosen. But I repeat, this should not be done by somebody who does not have a seasoned mentor at his/her side.

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#5
In reply to #2

Re: starting my circuit with capacitor discharge

10/19/2009 8:29 PM

This is definitely something in the category that if you have to ask then you're not qualified to be doing this. For 600 Joules to be stored on a 120 μF will require over 3000 volts.

Believe you me, I am only qualified because I say I am. I am bringing in 40,000 V to my cap bank, so if I make a mistake it will cost me dearly. I am nearly done with this unit and I am only asking because it will be more simple not dealing with any physical manipulation of wires or the such. It would be much simpler to just flip THIS SWITCH to turn the unit off or on.

√(2*600J/(120μF)=√1.2*103/(1.2*10-4))V=√(107)V≈3160V

I could not guess what this means....

You will require some very special capacitors to be able to contain and steer this kind of energy, regardless of the capacitance value chosen. But I repeat, this should not be done by somebody who does not have a seasoned mentor at his/her side.

My system is way simpler than what you are suggesting. I am not able to understand your position.

If this is not simple I do not want your answer. No offence intended. This unit is not finished yet but I will be glad to share it with anyone who wishes, when finished.

Keep in touch,

Zane

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#3

Re: starting my circuit with capacitor discharge

10/19/2009 7:57 PM

It's in the name (H2OCommuter).. he's trying to jumpstart his HHO device.

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#6
In reply to #3

Re: starting my circuit with capacitor discharge

10/19/2009 8:33 PM

God that is a kick!

Your the greatest!

Seriously, I have put that behind me untill I fix my electrical shortage.

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#9

Re: starting my circuit with capacitor discharge

10/20/2009 10:11 AM

Sounds like a probable Darwin award.

I present the simple equation for the energy stored on a capacitor and he/she doesn't recognize it. What's being asked for sounds similar to the beam kicker circuits we use that do an initial pre-charging of the capacitor bank. But I've yet to hear anything that shows respect or comprehension of what's being attempted. I cannot help anyone unwilling to learn.

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#10
In reply to #9

Re: starting my circuit with capacitor discharge

10/20/2009 1:16 PM

Red fred,

I appreciate your knowledge and expierience. though contrary to your statement I do not want to learn. I came to ask a question and you said yourself is is a simple answer. Your equasion is of value, I am going to assume as I did not recognise it, I do not care to learn. wrong.. I am starting this project from an allmost primeval knowledge, seriously. and if you can help and choose not to that is your perogative. but as I continue please recognise I am trying to learn and encorporate some of your ideas.

I do have some equasions at my hand but will not impress you.

Moreover when I contemplated your equasion of the capacitor and realized it started with 600J and showing 3.K + Volts as the result, I knew it was somthing I would deal with, if I chose to follow you. I couldn't see that as the answer to my question. I am sure by now you can see the enormus amount of my ignorance. I bring to your attention, the arrogance of your coments are stinking up this topic.

Your previous suggestion about tootlege is superb, that again is why I came here.

I do not need this part of my sircuit to make my device run. I can simply jump start my complete device from a 12 V battery hooked up to a 300 Watt inverter every time I turn it on. not a problem.

Lastly you are talking to me in the directly not the group. If what I have said is not respectfull to you or you feel I am too ignorant of comprehending your way don't reply.

Zane a Man

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#18

Re: Starting a Circuit with Capacitor Discharge

10/21/2009 1:06 AM
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#20
In reply to #18

Re: Starting a Circuit with Capacitor Discharge

10/21/2009 2:38 AM

That is awesome! I am so glad you sent me a copy, I have never read it. I guess the reason why I never did is because it doesn't apply to what I am doing directly. Like and unlike what Nicola Tesla was doing with high voltage, high frequency, pulse width modulation, things and expieriments he actually did. I am using simple technologies to accomplish somthing greater than the establishments focus. I am going about it in another way. Listen Closly; I am indirectly making high frequency. which everyone knows travels nearly the speed of superconductor at room temp, using 30 watts, that same frequency I am gathering via air coil as magnetic flux. very large amounts, verry quickly. Look, read, remember or notice, that electricty and magnitism are part of the same coin, inseperable, "but you can hide or isolate one half, if you know what you are doing, or if you don't know whart you are doing you may just think its not there, and you cannot find the other side. You may nearly know what I am doing by know. and may be able to figure it out yourself. Not to worry I will be glad to share it all with you when it is finished. besides mine is only a replication of someone else's work anyway.

So as you can see I am not breaking and laws of thermodinamics yet .Am I ?????

Nowhere did I say I was going to create energy? Nor I did not say I disagreed with the heat loss thingy it next stated. OK! Where are you guys getting this information from, I think you must be remembering somthing that was brainwashed into your minds at some place in time.

Just read what is printed, and quit thinking about some hidden ulterrior motive. I came here to communicat and I do it well. so quit trying to slam dunk on me, you will not get by.

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#24
In reply to #20

Re: Starting a Circuit with Capacitor Discharge

10/21/2009 12:19 PM

I think you must be remembering something something that was brainwashed into your minds at some place in time.

Yes, you are correct, that place would be an institution for higher learning (college), tailored for science and engineering. It's amazing how much more a person knows of how the world works after having all the great laws and information gathered and figured by all the worlds greatest minds over the course of humanity under their belt. I know It might be difficult to understand, but when someone spends 9 years Schooling about the sciences which you "play" with, and another 30 actually using them in Industry, and the real world, it should be no surprise that they might think they know something about them.

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#26
In reply to #24

Re: Starting a Circuit with Capacitor Discharge

10/21/2009 2:13 PM

I absolutly agree with your entire statment. # 23

I have nothing to comment about #24 of this thread, all was over my head.

What has been discused by me on this thread is only my resitation of another persons device (Of many) and how I am trying to put the pieces together. There are huge gaps in my knowlege, so I do appreciate all input critical and otherwise. Albeit I am not here for as you say to be placed into general classifications, like thoes people generalizations. it makes people uncomfortable and irritated. When I set down eagerly awaiting a responce I don't like the bad anxiety of feeling someone who will slam down with the next response.

To me, these are purely technical questions, and I have come here to gather knowlege and impiment somthing I do not yet understand, to improve myself and my competencies.

This I will liken to learning to ride a bike. when you finally get it, you can not verbalize how you did technically, but the fact is you have done it. So As my engineering lingo is lousy I am pleased that I have not been slaped down on that issue.

having fun in the struggle! Enjoy

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#29
In reply to #20

Re: Starting a Circuit with Capacitor Discharge

10/21/2009 2:46 PM

Link was provided for educational purpose only. Sorry it was so upsetting to you.

No offense, but I do suggest the use of a spell checker. Proper spelling indicates you have made an effort in your posts and should bring back more thoughtful efforts in the responding posts.

*********

There are many fun, educational, and practical projects that demonstrate basic electromagnetic theory.

Some of these projects fall into the category of Pulsed Power...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pulsed_power

Several can be extremely dangerous, so caution is advised.

I have personally simulated, designed, built, and tested the following :

Tesla coils (loosely coupled high frequency air core resonant transformers)
Jacob's Ladders
Marx banks and Mega-Joule capacitor banks
Van de Graaff generators
Coil guns (inductive launchers)
Rail guns (arc Lorentz-force launchers)
Magnetic levitators (attractive and repulsive)
Blumleins
DC brushed motors/generators
AC multi-phase motors/alternators
...more in progress

The underlying principles of these devices are well known. Although working on them increased MY understanding of EM theory, my results have only confirmed what has been thoroughly understood by Physicists, Scientists and Engineers for many decades.

If you are building similar devices for fun, educational, or practical purposes, you should get mostly positive and constructive responses to reasonably structured questions.

Sorry, but mixing units and making incomprehensible statements like "storing up many KV of Flux" or "travels nearly the speed of superconductor at room temp" and telling people who may truly be experts in their fields that they can't understand your project will likely generate unkind responses.

Be safe and good luck with your project.

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#33
In reply to #29

Re: Starting a Circuit with Capacitor Discharge

10/21/2009 4:53 PM

Thank you,

I have spent thousands of hours looking at simulations and mathematical equations I cannot understand. I have gone through many weeks of futile studies. I do not discount any of your work or expertise. my mind sees x r a b y and you see a b c d e. this is the way I understand things. So when I am describing things I have read, it may not sound correct to the normal engineer. Don't get me wrong I am not dipping my own self worth. I am as competent as any with what I put my hand to.

I do not understand if having more than two capacitors, with values of 5KV and 34 uF is not many KV of flux? What is it? If my capacitors are discharging at 60 Hz what do you say I am doing? I am collecting magnetic flux and that is all that is going into the capacitors what are you saying? I do not get it.

Another incomprehensible fact. Of what speed would you say the magnetic flux travels from the sun? ouch that is fast. What some 93 M miles away and the solar flair radiation "Magnetic Flux" can reach the earth in some 9 hours. hum Totally abstract I am upset. you know that radio frequencies travel outside of the wire and are not subject to the limitations of the wire. Now I can not substantiate these matters at this time, mathematically or otherwise so I will concede this argument on my scientific prowess inadequacy. you win this one.

As for the spell checker I will use it from now on. I don't like to be scene as a dolt. As far as the responses, I have no problem with how they have come back.

I have been to other so called Field subject groups that do not understand this system either. so that ploy of mine was to maybe wiggle my way into the comforting arms of intellectual quest, and to stay away from those who would rather bully there point of view. Are we seeing more eye to eye?

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#34
In reply to #33

Re: Starting a Circuit with Capacitor Discharge

10/21/2009 5:23 PM

I suggest enrolling in some basic electrical courses. a local community college would work for your purposes.

before you read on, I do not wish to "bully, or nitpick, or be mean. I just see that there is a basic lack of understanding in the text which I am reading, and the way it is presented.

5KV means 5000 Volts, this is a measurement of electrical potential (has nothing to do with flux) (like the amount of water behind the dam or volume)

I, or Amps is a measure of the electrical force, (or the flow rate of water flowing out of the dam. -Flow rate)

R, or resistance is the size of the outlet which restricts the water coming out of the dam. (flood gates -Friction)

34uF mean 34 micro-Farads, or 1/100,000 of one farad. this is a measurement of capacitance (how much juice a cap can hold)

"If my capacitors are discharging at 60 Hz what do you say I am doing?" I would say you are not understanding what is really happening. Capacitors do not discharge at a switching frequency... you say 60Hz (60 cycles per second).. no.. this is bogus. A capacitor is discharged at DC (direct Current) not AC (alternating current), and this is done extremely quickly, almost instantaneously. You basically are suggesting that your capacitors are switching from +5000Volts to -5000Volts 60 times each second.

I'm not even going to start into your sun paragraph...

When presenting a statement to an informed audience, you need to at a minimum understand what the units mean which you are using. If you do not understand what these units mean, its ok, but don't use them as if you do. If your understanding is not adequate to use the engineering terms, just explain it it the best layman's terms you do understand. It's not about what you know, it more about how you present what you do actually know.

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#38
In reply to #34

Re: Starting a Circuit with Capacitor Discharge

10/21/2009 8:38 PM

Thank you ,

as I gulp down any thought I had any understanding of what I am doing. If I can be so bold to say I fully accept your criticism of what I am not saying correctly. I humbly ask forgiveness, for the contempt that I portrayed in my last comment. I acknowledge, I truly humiliated my self when I put my understanding in full context of your answer. I am in my place.

Great answer.

It did not hurt one bit, and actually taught me more than the question I asked "how would you discribe what is accuring?"

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#41
In reply to #38

Re: Starting a Circuit with Capacitor Discharge

10/21/2009 11:42 PM

I've been lurking throughout this conversation to see if h2ocommuter was willing to learn. I now see from this reply and reply #39 that you are. I apologize for any offense I may have given here to anyone and especially to you h20commuter.

So as RVZ717 explained some of the terms you've used, allow me to fill in some of the rest and point out that one of your comments that you cannot explain is actually quite correct. (I realize some of my terms you may not grasp at first, but I do hope you will get grasp them eventually.)

A Joule is a unit of energy. It can be a mechanical, electrical, nuclear or chemical form of energy, this does not matter. A two kilogram mass (m=2kg) moving at a velocity of one meter per second (v=1m/s) will have one Joule of kinetic energy (E=1/2*m*v2). A two Farad capacitor (C=2F) charged to one volt (V=1V) also has one Joule of energy (E=1/2*C*V2) (Notice that velocity is a small v while Voltage is a capital V. There just aren't enough letters in the alphabet.) So 600 Joules of kinetic energy is about the energy delivered by a 0.45 caliber bullet.

Now a capacitor and a coil (inductor) both store energy but in different ways. The capacitor stores the energy in the electrostatic field between the two plates of the capacitor. While a coil stores energy in the magnetic field created outside the coil. So a capacitor cannot store magnetic energy but it can electrostatically store energy that once was magnetic energy. This has to be understood for me to explain the term flux. Flux is actually a mathematical term that can be applied to any field phenomena. Flux is the change of a field and is always associated with a changing of energy. Here's an analogy, think of a field of tall grass like wheat. With all of the stalks standing straight up, no mechanical energy is stored. When the stalks are bent over but not broken mechanical energy is stored. Looking at a whole field of a stationary wheat field looks the same regardless of bent or not. But when the wind blows and energy gets stored and released in the wheat, one can now see the flux from the wind.

Now lastly for your insight. This explanation will likely briefly go over your head a little but please bare with me.

In a transmission line of a coaxial cable, the radio frequency energy gets alternating stored as an electrostatic field and a magnetic field as it travels down the coaxial cable. Now if you look back at my comment about how the coil and capacitor store energy you will notice that they do this outside of the conductor. The energy actually travels down the insulation between the two conductors of a transmission line.

I hope that this helps you in your quest. But as I pointed out earlier with my comparison to the bullet. Unlike other projects that will only hurt when one is careless, this will kill. Please, be very careful.

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#42
In reply to #41

Re: Starting a Circuit with Capacitor Discharge

10/22/2009 12:55 AM

Thank you,

Two points, and I am saving one argument for If I come back with positive results.

I thoroughly grasp the mathematical values as you have explained them along a very nice path. To I can easily understand the formulas as you have showed . Very clear!

The flux concept was welcome as this will help in understanding both sides of my information processing. As you see the waves of wind blowing the wheat or grassland. remember it is called "wind wolves". an American heritage.

My argument I will hold next to my heart as I do not have much to go on for this project, much is against me, and I should take this probable false pretence with me when I leave.

But remember if I come back I will bring the Crow.

Thank you

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#40
In reply to #34

Re: Starting a Circuit with Capacitor Discharge

10/21/2009 10:44 PM

OMG how stupid I must look,

this is a hoot. No offence intended. at all.

I continually see myself deeper and deeper in a large hole of knowledge. I believe I know nothing at all about what I am attempting to do, and here I will not even think of it. OK. OK.

As this may be minutia to everyone here except me, I will try to keep my blunder-busting (Verb), to an absolute minimum.

As for my capacitors go, as I have given this a quandary of thought (not knowing how to understand, (let me call the inventor "the enlightened one,TEO ") what could possibly be going on here according to TEO. Just to give the respect to his proposal.

I do not know! I am just going to follow the direction as written and as I understand them. All I need to do is get my LCR meter, set the components in place. maybe use a spark gap or two. Two to four ground straps, a distribution panel, something to run off it, and Safety. I think I have covered everything. just like the simpleton I am.

I am at piece with this, any objections?

If nothing further I will leave this discussion and promise to return here only if I have at least 120 Volts at 30 Amperes. Fair enough, it is my decision! I hate waisting peoples time. Thank you each for sharing it with me.

Zane

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#48
In reply to #18

Re: Starting a Circuit with Capacitor Discharge

02/07/2013 5:40 PM

OMG

Who where when or what gave anyone here that I was going to go against the first law of thermodynamics?

I would in no way ever EVER try to close the system and then try to get more out of it than I put in!

I never said I would pull off a Houdini!

Quote"

The first law of thermodynamics is a version of the law of conservation of energy, specialized for thermodynamical systems. It is usually formulated by stating that the change in the internal energy of a closed system is equal to the amount of heat supplied to the system, minus the amount of work done by the system on its surroundings. The law of conservation of energy can be stated: The energy of an isolated system is constant.

Other than this I cannot ad to the theories or explanations as to how technologically I may accomplish my task.

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#19

Re: Starting a Circuit with Capacitor Discharge

10/21/2009 1:30 AM

Oh my god, is this what engineers do for fun?

Is this how you people fight online? This is actually funny.

I have a problem with engineers, the fact that they create their own little bubble of being better then everyone else. Using unnecessary vocab. Not all but some. Looking down at people. Like most university profesors. including the electrical prof at lakehead university.

I am not saying all, but most that I have come across so far.

To be honest, I get ashmed to have the same title as people like this.

Hopefully i get my degree in 5 months, yay.

Thanks for listening to my 2am rant

---------------------------------------------------------

Electrical engineers have no life and we can prove it mathematically.

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#21
In reply to #19

Re: Starting a Circuit with Capacitor Discharge

10/21/2009 2:48 AM

That was a hoot

The 2 AM rant

mathmatically I can't add to 1

It took me an my son twenty min to figure out where the other zero went when inverting some gauss numbers to the ten millionths position

but I worked for a week without the answer.

Deffinately not the brightest star arround.

Thanks that was a good laugh Guest.

don't be so freekin serious. I am proud of your efforts and good job with your schooling.

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#23
In reply to #19

Re: Starting a Circuit with Capacitor Discharge

10/21/2009 12:01 PM

Boy its good you said "not all but some" or I would have given you a tremendously painful internet smack-down. I do not like broad generalizations about people, it shows a form of ignorance in my eyes. Yes petty arguing over the technical details of an over unity device is quite comical, and I have enjoyed it much thus far.

So If I could say "You People" referring to you and your people, who would I be referring to? Almost engineers? Pseudo Engineers? C'mon, your making a generalization about something you are striving to become in bad light, thats not cool.

Now that i have given a little tiny slap, I must say, good luck on your studies, and considering this thread, I would like you to pay very close attention while learning thermodynamics and physics. It seems all to common for people to argue about building a magic device to defy the laws which you should (of probably have already) learn.

One more thing, you really should create an account, and attempt to save "our kind" from the broad generalizations people like yourself might make.

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#22

Re: Starting a Circuit with Capacitor Discharge

10/21/2009 3:03 AM

Hi,

do you have really stored 600 J in a capacitor (bank)?

What is "starting a portion of circuit"? That seems to be a switch that should connect and disconnect some KV and/or high current.

Specify voltage and current and discharge time.

Do you want to use this energy in your circuit? Then you need repetitive switching at high repetition rate. Or do you simply want to dump the energy that resides in your circuit to be sure not to blow up yourself?

Switches of similar performance are used in Lasers, surface vacuum-coating, RADAR, military ECM, pulsed reverse galvanic for material removal (also called ECM but different meaning), railguns...

Be cautious.

RHABE

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#25
In reply to #22

Re: Starting a Circuit with Capacitor Discharge

10/21/2009 1:37 PM

This is a good question,

I have the instruction of how to build a cap, to handle this amount of energy and I will be building them probably this week. They are only my first so expect some blems. I am not going to be real acurate seeing my measuring competencies will need improvements. That being said, My bank needs to be Over 5KV, and as much over 34 uF as possible, where the designer uses more than two. so I am not sure what that equates to in total joules.... Again my manufacturing will be week in accuracy. the best I will be able to do is using a 5KV transformer to check and set voltage. That should be acurately above 5KV, and then the 34 uF will be acurately above 34 uF. I am not sure how high I will to go. Furthermore I am not sure if I go high enough, I can eliminate one or more af these caps? I am just not sure.

"Statrting a portion", was in reguards to a device that produces approximatel 400 mG of magnetic induction. That as it stands, before modification in my build, may be pluged into any wall socket or in this case, I am using my car battery with a 300 watt inverter. Although your assumption of some sort of KV and /or High current this is magnetic induction, and collected by an Air core coil placed in proximity. As this 400 mG is amplified by the coil, a serious amount of electrical output is felt in the wire on both ends as the feeling of an electric fence. Which there is connected to the capacitor bank. Now seeing the magnetic impulse is above radio freq. it travels outside of the wire, thus is the speed of a superconductor at room temp. Again just as this is a reverberation in proximity to the other electrons adjcient to this coil, other electrons join into this corralation in proximity causing a synergy effect, whereby (Depending on Freq. you can choose how much output you desire at the wall socket) giving as much power as wanted by the designer. This is where it feeds the caps.

I do not know how to, "specify voltage current with discharge time" as you understand it. So this is my answer. I am supposed to set the discharge timming in relation to the desired freq. out to my Isolation transformer. By using a space time nomograph style chart, set the desired frequency, (Which will be 60 hz or 120 cycles per sec) out of the Capacitor bank, using the appropriate resistor. Next I am choosing to use a 240 V Isolation Transformer, so I will be choosing that voltage as the desired capacitor bank discharge voltage by selecting the correct resistor between the IT and the Cap bank, using the same nomograph style chart.

What I figured I wanted to do was eleiminate the 300 watt inverter and battery, This would then be plugging directly into the output side of the distribution box. Whereby the On/Off switch would disconnect all major discharges and the cap bank and the main breaker, at the same time leaving the cap bank charged for later startup. Flipping this switch on again would momentarily start this 400 mG unit first and then allow current to flow to other circuits. I could use a "main breaker" for the remaining outputs and a seperate repeditive switch as you suggest. I am not concerned about blowing myself up I respect God most of the time.

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#27
In reply to #25

Re: Starting a Circuit with Capacitor Discharge

10/21/2009 2:20 PM

You seem to be working off an existing generator design, which one is it as it seems familiar (we haven't previously discussed it on a CR4 thread have we)?

I am not concerned about blowing myself up I respect God most of the time.

Unlike water electrolysers it only takes one mistake at these stored voltage and energy levels to kill (least you want to meet him/her prematurely). I would also advise you look at the previous thread regarding capacitor discharge and interlock safety systems.

http://cr4.globalspec.com/thread/44151/Calculating-Discharge-Resistor-for-High-Voltage-Capacitors

Also capacitor memory effect (dielectric soakage) causing discharged capacitors to recharge themselves on their own (which has caught many the unwary tinkerer out, including me).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Types_of_capacitor

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#30
In reply to #27

Re: Starting a Circuit with Capacitor Discharge

10/21/2009 3:38 PM

Jack OAT wow,

http://www.28an.com/altenergypro/index.htm Take your pick. these system all use the same Laws of induction, energy collection and transfer. Some are unicycles and some are fourseaters. I have many other links if you are interrested. Lots of Validating pricipals and scientific law mechanisms involved. That is a mouthfull I would like to say another way. I am compiling, as a layman all this information as a builders guide, "so us" the lay can build each device. This being my first I am seeking sure guidance.

I have not looked at other devices listed here at all, You could answer this question easily for me from the above link results of observation.

Thank you for the links I will visit them, and seriously contemplate how to impliment "The one hand in the pocket rule". as that applies.

As you are unawair of my competencies, in as you say water electrolysis one of the best ever designing engineers had a lightning bolt hit him from his own unit and it did a self slap down. That being said, I know this stuff is deadly and I do not know how to handle it. (case in point) When building a amperage limiting circuit I needed to use a grounding strap on my wrist for the IC chip. God I do not have a clue as to what I am dealing with. I figured I would hook it all up and stand way back to turn it on.

Don't get me wrong, I can wire a car or a boat a house replace all of these while hot, so I am not totally insane. I should be able to handle this toy project.

I am going to be gunshy of this thing, believe you me!!! The links you sent me should temper my understanding of the dangers.

Thanks. Zane

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#35
In reply to #30

Re: Starting a Circuit with Capacitor Discharge

10/21/2009 6:00 PM

http://www.28an.com/altenergypro/index.htm Take your pick. these system all use the same Laws of induction, energy collection and transfer

Unfortunately they also appear to be over unity devices operating on rather loose pseudoscience "principles" and utilising dubious methods in an attempt to bypass the laws of energy conservation.

However on the plus side the designs claims are easy to prove or disprove by getting the generator started and using it to power a load and keep itself running. If you can get it to do that then you have a true over unity engine as claimed. Should make for an interesting project and a good learning experience none the less (whether or not it works), just be wary of the free energy and pseudoscience scams and websites on the internet that claim over unity or free energy (these should NOT be used as the basis of further development in the event you need further guidance).

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#36
In reply to #30

Re: Starting a Circuit with Capacitor Discharge

10/21/2009 6:44 PM

I thoroughly reviewed the site link you posted

"http://www.28an.com/altenergypro/index.htm"

It is just one of many that promotes false information commonly referred to as pseudoscience or junk science.

All of the devices pictured on the site should be able to provide a demonstration of one or more BASIC electromagnetic principles. Beyond that, any claim of energy amplification or useful energy harvesting are clearly fictional.


I'm sorry that I cannot explain it to you any better than this:

These sites contain many basic and advanced scientific TERMS that are jumbled up and reassembled into nonsensical sentences and concepts. The site promoters are either completely naive of basic scientific principles or they are intentionally creating these nonsensical concepts to further their own agendas (usually monetary, like book sales).

************

It takes years of hard study and practical effort to BEGIN to understand a fraction of one of the disciplines in science, physics, or engineering. The people who have taken this path are your best resource for good information in these fields.

The Internet is an immense source of both good and bad information and there is no easy way for you to determine which is good or bad. I think it would be to your advantage to seek a person-to-person dialog with a scientist, physicist, or engineer in your area who would be willing to answer some of your questions and maybe help guide you through the minefield of information on the Internet.

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#39
In reply to #36

Re: Starting a Circuit with Capacitor Discharge

10/21/2009 9:10 PM

I agree with this.

All of the devices pictured on the site should be able to provide a demonstration of one or more BASIC electromagnetic principles.

I have chosen the simplest one in my estimation to deal with. One I think I kind of understand in my own way. That being said, I will not be able to validate that simple principle you talk of, for lack of the eloquent manor as some of you speak to me.

I will have a very small amount of money involved when completed, and I will have some new understanding of more facts I cannot prove or disprove. But I am keeping an open mind even with all detractors pointed directly at this type of project. Like the Hydrogen on demand systems. Many different schools of thought. I followed many people very deep into this field just to realize some very valuable things along the way.

I realize I am a fish out of water here, so I am very grateful you all have put up with my being here, flabbergasting some of you with my ignorance. Thank you.

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#44
In reply to #36

Re: Starting a Circuit with Capacitor Discharge

10/23/2009 1:21 AM

Good answer.

The Trans World Energy site is complete gibberish.

Putting resonating hyperbolic volt gate swash-plate krypton-induced Helmholtz factor platitudinous gelatinous verbiage together does not make stuff work.

Please, H2Ocommuter, be careful. Working around high voltage capacitors can be lethal.

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#45
In reply to #44

Re: Starting a Circuit with Capacitor Discharge

10/23/2009 11:28 PM

Hey! Don't worry about the caps... Knock yourself out!

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#46
In reply to #44

Re: Starting a Circuit with Capacitor Discharge

02/07/2013 5:05 PM

I know it has been a long time and I said I would not be back until I had a bowl of crow to share with everyone but your comment brought back some painful memories. I had 1000 volts built into my bank and yousa. I was bit more than once. i got it on video way back when.

ooooweee it was only about 19ish uf but it was definitely real.

FYI I have moved 5 time sense then so my lab has been open and closed many times. I have just reopened it and am contemplating the many ideas I have been studying.

wish me good luck.

I'll bring the Crow when back when i learn to charge the LC tank with my plasma globe.

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#28
In reply to #25

Re: Starting a Circuit with Capacitor Discharge

10/21/2009 2:39 PM

(Which will be 60 Hz or 120 cycles per sec)

Well, which one is it? 60Hz or 120Hz? (1Hz=1 cycle per second)

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#31
In reply to #28

Re: Starting a Circuit with Capacitor Discharge

10/21/2009 3:47 PM

God that is so funny,

My dixlexia is getting the better of me. That is what is in my minds eye, as I wrote it. It is the normal us version of electricty. I am as dence as hard wood. give me a break. I will set it correct I guarentee it. If it takes me a week to squees out the correct answer.

Thank you for cleanning my glasses.

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#32
In reply to #31

Re: Starting a Circuit with Capacitor Discharge

10/21/2009 4:50 PM

Yes 60Hz is standard frequency of all AC electricity in the US (and many other countries) Some countries operate on 50Hz. Nowhere (that I'm aware of) operates on 120Hz.

I read through your link you posted earlier... It's a good laugh, thanks. I'd wager that I could find links to 100 internet sites which have all claimed the "world saving, amazing mystical energy device" of one sort or another in a matter of 15 minutes. I could then spend the rest of 1 day to discredit each and every one of them, using only the laws set fourth by the boundaries of physics and thermodynamics.

Enjoy the project, learn a lot, have some fun, Wow the neighbors, but do not expect to create any revolutionary magic energy device.

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#43
In reply to #32

Re: Starting a Circuit with Capacitor Discharge

10/22/2009 4:34 AM

OK. I've been keeping this from you guys, but I run on an over-unity device... The Bump-a-thon 5000!

Coming to a store near you in 2012.

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#47
In reply to #28

Re: Starting a Circuit with Capacitor Discharge

02/07/2013 5:29 PM

Oh thanks so much for contributing. I finally came across the little answer to your question. how simple it was. really you should already know the answer. But you may just be holding out on everyone. not being funny but coy and secretive with your electronics. absolutely no offence intended. it truly brightens my spirit to read your words again.

I only reread maybe a quarter of the posts to this topic but I wanted to answer the question you have given me.

It seems Mr Smith had already explained we were using the normal 60 Hz from a transformer but then converting it as a full wave bridge with little smoothing as it would become a sawtooth type signal and that is the 120 cycles he was referring to.

I know quite a bit more about the process nowadays but that is not on my bench as we speak so pardon my interfering with the silence here. I will keep my promise to come back with the Crow to share when I get it!

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#37

Re: Starting a Circuit with Capacitor Discharge

10/21/2009 7:30 PM

"When a fool and a wise man contendeth, it is hard to tell them apart."

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