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Storing an Aluminum Canoe in Subfreezing Weather

11/17/2009 6:15 PM

I'm a little concerned about leaving my 13ft 1981 Smokercraft aluminum canoe outside in below freezing weather. This canoe has many rivets and my concern is water making its way between the rivet heads and the body of the canoe, freezing and expanding causing leaks. Where we live it rains a lot during the day and freezes a lot at night. Will this be a problem? I took advice I received on this forum and 're-set' the 18 previously leaking rivets using a hammer above and a small anvil below. This method worked great but now I'm worried that the freezing weather will cause more leaks. Am I being overly paranoid? I have to leave the canoe outside for the winter. I tried using a tarp but the air here is so damp that the canoe gets wet anyway. Thanks, Ron

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#1

Re: Storing aluminum canoe in below freezing weather.

11/17/2009 6:37 PM

If you are just worried about it not freezing, cover it up and put a small light inside.

Nestle the boat up against the house and watch it snow.

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#2

Re: Storing Aluminum Canoe in Below Freezing Weather

11/17/2009 8:31 PM

I know many people who have or had aluminum canoes and aluminum boats as well that never had problems with leaking caused by cold weather storage.

Well except the guy who left his in the lake during freeze up but that sort of doesn't count I think!

If you have to reset rivets it was either not built right or they used inferior materials.

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#3
In reply to #2

Re: Storing Aluminum Canoe in Below Freezing Weather

11/17/2009 11:04 PM

Don't get him started! Can't you see that he's anal about this canoe!

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#4
In reply to #3

Re: Storing Aluminum Canoe in Below Freezing Weather

11/17/2009 11:46 PM

Thats half the fun!

Some of the most anal people I know continualy provide me with the most entertainment.

Especially when they buy overpriced junk and wonder why it has flaws and problems and then falls apart on them!

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#7
In reply to #4

Re: Storing Aluminum Canoe in Below Freezing Weather

11/18/2009 7:14 AM

"Especially when they buy overpriced junk and wonder why it has flaws and problems"

Such as Windows?

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#5

Re: Storing Aluminum Canoe in Below Freezing Weather

11/18/2009 2:21 AM

Inferior? You calling my genuine, vintage, aluminum, 1981, 13 foot, Smokercraft inferior??? Just because 18 rivets developed slow leaks? I suppose it could have been worse.... Trouble is, I fell in love with this canoe the moment I laid eyes on it. Its small enough to fit on the roof of our aluminum teardrop trailer, its big enough for Olga, myself a our dog Bruno to ride in. -and- I can load & unload it myself! It was meant for us.....

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#29
In reply to #5

Re: Storing Aluminum Canoe in Below Freezing Weather

11/19/2009 6:35 PM

Outstanding!

I learned to canoe in a slightly older model. Darn near indestructible. Except for that one time I went down that river. They never really told me not to. A bit of a pig to portage by your self.

They do leak a bit as they get older.

Recommendations: We stored our canoes upside down on wooden racking in a shelter. This prevented the rain and snow from coming in and allowed for good ventilation.

Is it a laker, or river canoe?

I love the trailer! Would like more info on it.

How big is Bruno?

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#31
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Re: Storing Aluminum Canoe in Below Freezing Weather

11/20/2009 1:51 AM

Hi Icarus,

Its a flatbottom lake canoe. We've never had a canoe before. We're looking forward to lots of 'boating around'

The teardrop trailer is a "Camp-Inn" Its top of the line as far as teardrops go. It has a queen size bed, a full galley in the back with stove, refer, 16 gallons of pressurized water, 16,000 btu furnace, TV/DVD/MP3 player and lots of other stuff. If you would like, send me your address and I'll send you one of their brochures (they gave me a stack of them when I purchased it) It contains some kind of discount slip....

Bruno is a 100 pound Golden Retriever.

Ron

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#32
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Re: Storing Aluminum Canoe in Below Freezing Weather

11/20/2009 10:04 AM

The flat bottom is for stability as you are in open water and might be caught in high winds.

My second choice for a dog was a Golden Retriever. I have two German Shepperd's. The big boy Venture is 130 pounds and the little rat, Athena has just hit 40 pounds.

As you are new to canoeing; sudden changes in the center of gravity will likely end you up in the drink. If you are taking Bruno out with you I hope that he/she is calm enough to not tip the canoe.

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#33
In reply to #31

Re: Storing Aluminum Canoe in Below Freezing Weather

11/20/2009 11:42 AM

Have fun.

Remember, God does not subtract from man's allotted time that spent paddling.

Also, I'll second another's advice that a kayak paddle is handy, and easier on the shoulders than j strokes. (You may suffer the chortles of purists, however.) Also, kneeling while paddling provides better stability than sitting -- but there are plenty of people who sit.

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#35
In reply to #33

Re: Storing Aluminum Canoe in Below Freezing Weather

11/20/2009 2:17 PM

Kneeling is tremendously more stable than sitting on the seats. My (now my son's) canoe is round bottomed. While sitting one time, it flipped so fast I couldn't react. While kneeling we could go crossways of waves--that is, parallel to the troughs and crests.

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#6

Re: Storing Aluminum Canoe in Below Freezing Weather

11/18/2009 2:41 AM

Oh, after banging on all the leaky rivets, the leaks have stopped! Life is good...

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#8
In reply to #6

Re: Storing Aluminum Canoe in Below Freezing Weather

11/18/2009 11:22 AM

Well if you reset all the rivets and the canoe does not leak. How is water to get between them and the body to freeze. If it could it would still be leaking.

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#9
In reply to #8

Re: Storing Aluminum Canoe in Below Freezing Weather

11/18/2009 1:25 PM

Well, the canoe surface is curved, and the rivet starts out with a flat surface on the underside of the head. The best sealing occurs in close proximity to the shaft of the rivet, where the deformation from wacking on the rivet is greatest. Around the periphery of the rivet, there can be a gap that varies with the degree of curvature in the boat's skin. (Typically, the buck is not curved to match the boat's curvature, which varies at each rivet.) (This is like the situation of a bolt head on a curved surface.)

So water gets under the head of the rivet where it is not in full contact with the curved surface, and when it freezes, tends to deform and stretch the rivet. Seems theoretically possible, and some such might have happened in the past to this boat (to cause the original leaking). The force of water freezing can be about 114,000 psi, about 2.5 times the tensile and compressive strength of the aluminium alloy likely used in the canoe.

My guess is that this was not the cause of the original leaking, but that instead, the quite large expansions of the hot skin versus the cooler ribs (sunny day, canoe sitting inverted) would cause a shear force at the rivets that could be very high, causing them to rock slightly, etc. Over time...

I am a wooden boat builder, so I'd recommend throwing out the spam can and building a boat out of wood, using expoxy for the bonding and saturation agent. The resulting canoe would be substantially lighter... although it wouldn't match his trailer as well. (OK I might not really recommend this... I've had plenty of fun in aluminum canoes.)

Alternatively, to guard against water getting under the heads, one could put raw linseed oil on each rivet, and then wipe off the excess. Thoroughly waxing the bottom perhaps twice per winter would probably work, too.

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Re: Storing Aluminum Canoe in Below Freezing Weather

11/19/2009 9:28 AM

spam, spam, spam, spam... spam, spam, spam, spam............

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#10

Re: Storing Aluminum Canoe in Below Freezing Weather

11/18/2009 1:31 PM

Am I being overly paranoid?

No. You can never be too paranoid. People really are out to get you.

Raw linseed oil? Waxing? (See my other response.)

I love the look of your whole rig. Small, efficienct, and it looks like matching finishes on boat and trailer, to boot.

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#11

Re: Storing an Aluminum Canoe in Subfreezing Weather

11/18/2009 10:37 PM

To be honest, I never considered it might be a problem, but I have stored my Grumman aluminum canoe outside for 33 years in MA all year round and never experienced a leak or a loose rivet.

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#12

Re: Storing an Aluminum Canoe in Subfreezing Weather

11/18/2009 11:40 PM

Well, you've had replies from don't worry about it to things you don't want to think about.

Are you sure you can't get it inside to eliminate worries? For years I hung my Old Town from the garage rafters above a vehicle. Ropes, pulleys, and a couple of spreader bars to get it up and down.

If that's really "no," how about smearing some "blue stuff" (anaerobic gasket maker) around each rivet?

And when you get back on the water, try a kayak paddle; my shoulder didn't like the J-stroke, and the double ended paddle worked great.

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#13

Re: Storing an Aluminum Canoe in Subfreezing Weather

11/19/2009 5:29 AM

WD40?

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#15
In reply to #13

Re: Storing an Aluminum Canoe in Subfreezing Weather

11/19/2009 6:14 AM

WD 40 is advertised to repel water. You have to be careful where you apply it.

Put it all over and it won't go back into the water.

Put it on the front and it would be hard to paddle.

Put it on the back and never have to paddle again.

:>)

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#22
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Re: Storing an Aluminum Canoe in Subfreezing Weather

11/19/2009 12:18 PM

Even though your ratio of good answers to total posts is already better than mine, I feel duty bound to give this a GA vote!

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#23
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Re: Storing an Aluminum Canoe in Subfreezing Weather

11/19/2009 12:25 PM

Good one!

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#24
In reply to #15

Re: Storing an Aluminum Canoe in Subfreezing Weather

11/19/2009 12:38 PM

Put it all over and it won't go back into the water.

The mental picture this conjures up is just brilliant.

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#14

Re: Storing an Aluminum Canoe in Subfreezing Weather

11/19/2009 5:32 AM

You could try waxing the bottom with car wax.

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#16

Re: Storing an Aluminum Canoe in Subfreezing Weather

11/19/2009 7:00 AM

How about a small lean to hung on the house to keep direct rain off. Lightbulb hung inside the canoe.

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#17

Re: Storing an Aluminum Canoe in Subfreezing Weather

11/19/2009 7:43 AM

A couple of saw horses and a blue poly tarp should do the trick. But yeah, if the water can seep between the rivets and the hull (and it will) and then freezes then the force will loosen the rivets and you'll have slow leaks. That's quite common with aluminium boats though. Most riveted aluminum "bass boats" leak about a cup of water a day after a few years.

A friend of mine leaves his sailboat uncoverd over the winter. All the deck hardware is leaking and the balsa core is pretty much rotten. He wonders why. So did the Appalachin Mountains. Freezing water is powerful stuff.

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#18

Re: Storing an Aluminum Canoe in Subfreezing Weather

11/19/2009 7:45 AM

I have seen a lot of the aluminum canoes that are exposed to weather all year long. Most are at outfitters and on the racking turned bottom up to shed the water.

I have an ABS canoe with wood and wicker seats. Even this I coat with a wax and treat the wood and wicker to keep like new.

How about appropriating your wife's hair dryer and warming up the rivets and seams to rub paraffin into them? This would seem to address your concerns and give you some off season bonding time with your canoe. Plus it does not keep you from getting the canoe wet during a particularity good winter day just before the lake freezes over.

What does the manufacturer recommend for storage procedures?

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#19

Re: Storing an Aluminum Canoe in Subfreezing Weather

11/19/2009 8:26 AM

Before you tarp it, cover all the seams with a heavy grease. And I suppose you could store it some way that no water would be allowed to puddle inside.

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#20

Re: Storing an Aluminum Canoe in Subfreezing Weather

11/19/2009 9:05 AM

I am pretty certain you would have nothing to worry about. Expanding ice can only cause damage if it is constrained in all dimensions. Since aluminum is such a good conductor, the ice will form essentially evenly underneath a leaky rivet and expand out of the circumference of the head.

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#25
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Re: Storing an Aluminum Canoe in Subfreezing Weather

11/19/2009 1:07 PM

I think although I am not sure, that this is not quite true. If it were, then ice would not expand any open crack, many of which are shaped as a narrow V. If ice were thought to form a skin first, which then contains the expanding water within as it freezes, thereby somehow permitting the observed ice damage, then the ice container thus formed would immediately crack (because of the thinness and brittle nature of the container -- the ice is a very poor pressure vessel. I think (but again I'm making this up as I go) that as ice forms it goes through a semisolid state that cannot leak out of a crack fast enough to prevent pressure build up. The exposed edge of the crack (the leakage path) is so much smaller in area than the rivet head face (in other words, the part perpendicular to the escaping flow, if it could escape) that the head popping forces get very high before adequate escape can occur.

I've observed ice damage in many places where I would have expected the water to leak out (like polyurethane glue expand out of a joint). What you say makes sense to me, but it doesn't seem to apply in the real world. Perhaps the answer relates also to Van der Waal forces and the like -- the kinds of things that make adhesives work, and which allow geckos to hang from ceilings (and make so much money selling insurance).

On the other hand, the 114,000 psi I referenced above only applies if the container is perfectly stiff. which aluminum is not, even if the the aluminum structure involved were stiff, and it is anything but. Even if we assumed that the water cannot escape at all, the expansion (micro inches) in the direction that stretches the rivet could not possibly take the rivet out of its elastic range, I'd think. I'd think the original damage would have to be from movement of much large magnitude, such as from the shear force from lengthwise skin expansion (which can be many thousandths of an inch between rivets).

I write all this, of course, from profound ignorance of the process involved -- but at least it is good finger exercise.

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#26
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Re: Storing an Aluminum Canoe in Subfreezing Weather

11/19/2009 1:31 PM

"Frost action" of rocks comes to mind in support of your theory that unconfined ice has lots of power.

Weathering and Erosion

Developed by: Shilpa Patel

Lindsay Reese

Veronica Folgar

Katherine Espinosa

David Sullivan

Directed by: Dr. Jean Cremins, Ph.D

GRADE LEVEL:

6th TIME REQUIRED: 80 minutes

KEY TERMS:

weathering, physical weathering, chemical weathering

frost action, root-pry, erosion, deposition, sediments.

OVERVIEW:

This experiment will give students a hands-on experience

manipulating and controlling some of the variables affecting the appearance of the earth such as weathering and erosion. Weathering refers to the physical (mechanical) and chemical processes by which rock is broken into smaller pieces. Some examples of different types of physical weathering are frost action and root-pry. Frost action occurs when water in cracks of rocks freezes. This freezing results in expansion of the water. Thus cracks enlarge and rocks break down.

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#27

Re: Storing an Aluminum Canoe in Subfreezing Weather

11/19/2009 1:31 PM

I solved the leak problem years ago. I just borrow other peoples canoes!

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#28

Re: Storing an Aluminum Canoe in Subfreezing Weather

11/19/2009 1:37 PM

Go to Z-Line and get a spray in bed liner in the inside and forget about it. Happy paddling.

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#30

Re: Storing an Aluminum Canoe in Subfreezing Weather

11/20/2009 12:25 AM

Hi 4123,

I have been looking into to waterproofing of Aluminum Canoes. There is some temporary and permanent suggestions below.

If possible store the upturned canoe in a shed, or take it indoors and put in the loft, or hang on a wall? Make a stand and put a plywood cover on the canoe top and use it as a table. Just a thought!

An Emergency Temporary Seal

1) Turn the canoe over along the bank, and dry the area that needs to be repaired.

2) Reach for duct tape, useful in any canoe emergency kit.

3) Tape a strip of duct tape over the outside of the canoe so that it covers the hole or seam that is leaking.

4) Flip the canoe back over and head for home.

5) Remove and thoroughly clean the tape residue before making permanent repairs.

This quick repair can get you home with your feet dry, though, and duct tape patches can last for several extended canoe trips.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Have you thought of Brazing/Silver-Soldering from the inside?

This does not spoil the look of the canoe and is a permanent answer to leaks.

1) Raise the canoe on something solid, perhaps a couple of milk crates, and locate any leaks. If you are repairing a gash, hammer the bent edges so that they are flat and the edges touch each other. For seams, mark the area that is leaking and repair at least 12 inches to either side of the leak.

2) Clean the area thoroughly and dry it. Sand away any corrosion and clean with alcohol to remove grease or oils.

3) Cut a "v" shape with a grinder blade along the area to be repaired so that the solder flows into the crevice and puddles there. Don't cut all the way through.

4) Scrub lightly with a stainless wire brush, or medium to fine grit sandpaper.

5) Apply Soldering FLUX to any edges or the complete length of a seam. Use a propane torch to heat a brazing rod and Aluminum. Move it along the seam and allow the melted metal to flow into the seam. Remove the torch as soon as the Solder starts to flow.

Alternatively:

'ALUSOL' Solder has a four cores of Flux. You may want to practice on soldering any old but cleaned Aluminum to get the techniques right. You may also find it easier to lay a thick wire Aluminum Solder along the seam on top of the previously applied Flux and heat just enough to allow the Solder to flow.

5) Scrub the seam with a light stainless wire brush and reheat the seam. This second pass ensures the repair will not leak.

Flux removes the Aluminum Oxide layer on the surface and, allows the Solder to 'wet' the Aluminum.

Aluminum oxide is not so easily removed and, may require stronger fluxes such as an organic amine-based flux, (up to 285 °C) (Amine - Carbolic Acid).

Carboxylic acid - Wikipedia, the free encyclopediaSimilarly carboxylic acids are converted into amides, but this conversion typically does not occur by direct reaction of the carboxylic acid and the amine. ...
Physical properties - Nomenclature - Characterization - Applicationsen.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carboxylic_acid - Cached - Similar -

Us a narrow flame to solder using Sn (Tin), soft Tin Solder as this melts as below 330 °C. Use a flux such as Aluminum Soldering Flux.

Wash with a hot soap and water to remove any Flux.

'ALUSOL' Solder with water-soluble four-core flux. Suitable for soft soldering of aluminium, stainless steel and other low alloy metals. Normally requires no prior processing of oxidised surfaces. Alloy: tin 18 %, lead 80.1 %, silver 1.9 %. Melting temperature between 178–270 °C. Suitable tip temperature 350 °C

Note on Flux:

http://www.superiorflux.com/pdf/spec/No.1260.pdf (Sorry! Link no longer available.)

http://www.jm-metaljoining.com/products-pages.asp?pageid=76&sectionid=3 (Sorry! Link no longer available.)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Bolts/Rivets

1) Examine the boat for loose rivets along leaking seams. You will need to replace rivets for about a foot to either side of where the rivets appear to be leaking.

2) Drill out loose or suspect rivets.

3) Replace the rivets with small steel, or aluminum bolts of the same diameter. Place the rounded head on the outside of the hull and push through the rivet hole.

4) Tighten a washer and nylon coated lock nut onto the bolt on the inside.

5) Grind down any protruding bolt ends inside the canoe to prevent injury to paddlers.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sap/Resin

However you could also use tree resin melted and heated but, not burned. It will still work after 'burning' whilst 'cooking', but it looks better if you use the natural sap/resin golden colour. You can often find sap leaking from trees, and from the sound of it you are kind of in that sort of area where you can gather sap?

You will need a 2 small brushes, and natural beeswax, or ordinary candle wax, and a couple of old small pans to heat the wax and sap.

1) Wash with soapy water, rinse thoroughly. Leave to dry on a couple of boxes.

2) Clean the joint/s with alcohol (NOT Turpentine,) as this is oily, on the inside of the canoe. Leave to evaporate. This gives a clean surface that will except the sap/resin.

3) To make it look good and professional, use some lo-tack tape, as used in car painting, which should be run down both sides of the joint leaving a space between the tape ~1 -1½" (~25-37 mm).

4) Melt the tree sap/resin and let it get hot, and gently simmer for a minute on a very low heat. Do not boil, as it can flash to fire.

5) Now, working quickly, and if necessary reheating the sap/resin to a liquid as necessary, brush this between the tape you applied. You can slowly build up this resin by applying 2 or 3 coats, as by the time you reach the end of one seam the start will be ready for another coat. This will leave a slight round hump so no water can get into any little bubble or hole and freeze.

6) Remove the tape. Now, if you cleaned a wide enough area, and if you wish, you can carefully stick silver Duct Tape over the sap/resin.

7) Alternatively, heat the wax to a liquid, taking care not to heat too hot, as it may flash to fire. 'Paint' this wax over the now cold sap/resin and allow the wax to overlap the edges by ~½ (~12 mm). It will smooth any edge which may have built up from the sap/resin where the tape was applied, and stop the sap/resin from sticking to anything in the canoe, which it can do sometimes. If you use white wax it will be hardly noticeable against the Aluminum.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Below is details of resin filler

1) Raise the Canoe, right side up, on a pair of boxes.

2) Clean the areas of the Canoe to be sealed or repaired with soap and water and alcohol. Dry with a towel.

3) Mix a bucket of slow-curing epoxy.

4) Paint the seams on the inside of the boat with the epoxy. Don't just paint part of the seam; paint the whole seam, as the actual leak might not start where the water finally comes out. Work the epoxy into the edges of the riveted seams. The epoxy seeps into the gap along the edge of the seams. It will expand, harden and seal the leak for a while.

If you treat your canoe well, it might serve as permanent solution. If you abuse the boat, it might start leaking again, especially if the canoe has broken ribs that allow the bottom to flex to much.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I hope this helps, OK?

Good luck and take your time, whatever you choose as your remedy!

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#34
In reply to #30

Re: Storing an Aluminum Canoe in Subfreezing Weather

11/20/2009 2:10 PM

Good job Babybear--lots of alternates, he can have fun choosing. I want to add a caution about the aluminum soldering. AL is tough to solder because of the oxides. Most of us have seen ads for soldering rod for aluminum. The ones I have seen in the antique field are horribly expensive. Go to a welding supply store and see what they have for aluminum soldering. Several years ago a welding supply was much much more reasonable in price, and it may even work better!

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#36
In reply to #34

Re: Storing an Aluminum Canoe in Subfreezing Weather

11/20/2009 3:20 PM

Hi Lehman,

I really appreciate your reply post and remarks, thank you.

I realise how difficult Aluminum is to solder, which is why I said to wire brush, sand and then clean and paint with the Flux. Any oxide not already removed will be when the flux is applied. This is also the reason I listed web site where the OP can read and perhaps learn if they did not already know about Aluminum flux and soft solder.

I know the ALUSOL has flux in it but for such an old boat and for a few extra Dollars, if they decide to solder they should get a perfect finish? I have helped a few people silver solder a long time ago and when the asked for help, they had not used any pre-flux so the solder would not 'wet' the metal!

I realise soldering Aluminum on a canoe is going to be that much harder, as it is so thin. Which is why I suggested practicing on a couple of bits of old aluminum. If it is too thick it does not take much effort to beat it thinner then solder? But, strictly speaking on any practice bits, it is not the thickness but the actual soldering technique which is to be refined?

Anyway, I thank you once again.

Good luck.

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#37

Re: Storing an Aluminum Canoe in Subfreezing Weather

11/27/2009 3:31 AM

maybe off topic. cannot remember if first read in Non destructive evaluation text or boat book. the rivets may not be EXACTLY the same grade aluminum as hull and may start corroding microscopicaly [galvanic/electrolytic]. this has been known to happen. one friend drove his car topper to the metal salvage yard and demanded they run the dozer over the boat. the other used roof patch [top,bottom , sides, front] we called it "tar belly". thank goodness someone stole it eventually. winter storage was now solved.

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#38
In reply to #37

Re: Storing an Aluminum Canoe in Subfreezing Weather

11/27/2009 6:27 AM

dozer!

Bulldozer?

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