Voltage potential discovered across pipes in hot water heating system

Hi. I had a similar problem and it was solved by copper strip connecting all the pipes with each other close to the furnace. If this does not solve the problem, next I would check the ground system in general. I suspect that there might be a leakage of electricity somewhere else in the house electrical system sending some electricity in your grounding system. It could even be inside a light fitting. If this is the case you will have to systematically isolate wires coming out of your BD box by disconnecting one at a time starting with the neutral. After each time you disconnected a wire you go down to the furnace and measure the volts between the pipes and a ground wire that you trust. It is more likely that the leak comes from the neutral side because the life side is isolated by swiches. Then if all fails drive a long steel pin in the ground next to the house close to the system, reground the furnace to the steel pin and isolate it from the old ground system. Then when you redo all the bad wiring over time you can reconnect it propperly or get a professional company to rewire the whole system. Always use a volt meter before touching anyting and rather use insolated pliers to remove wires than hands. Wear thick rubber soled shoes. Good luck. Hope you find your fix.

If you have a potential on your copper pipes, that's a sure sign you have an insulating break somewhere in the line (possibly a piece of iron pipe, a meter, maybe even corrosion). If you must use water pipes for ground paths (and it's a terrible bad idea), strap them everywhere and avoid long runs. Then get some GFIs in those basement duplexes. But, please get this fixed. It's not doing your pipes any good either.

Of course!

Disimilar metals, an applied current and hardwater. A perfect environment for galvanic reaction.

Rats

Thanks

In California the code is all water pipes must be earth ground. This occurred when a contractor found that my copper pipes where not grounded. So he hammered a piece of metal rod into the ground and clamped a huge cable to it and my pipes. This is pretty easy to do after you fix the problem. As far as using it as a ground for electrical wiring I would fix that. This reminds me of a power station I know in CA that is DC not AC and uses the Pacific ocean as a backup ground for the power grid. Salt water conducts just fine LOL.

There may not be much you can do about this other then to yell at the utility. Let me explain...

It is very possible you are seeing "tingle voltage". I essence, you are seeing the voltage potential created by the impedance of the utility neutral, back to its best ground point, relative to the "ground" of your cement floor.

It is becoming common practice for utilities to use a common neutral for both the primary and secondary sides of their distribution system. This often times ends up causing many thousands of feet of common neutral. All of this copper has an impedance, that impedance causes a voltage drop across that neutral which causes a voltage potential to exist between the neutral and the local ground reference.

Check to see if there is continuity between your heater pipes and the system neutral. If there is continuity, then this is more then likely your problem. If so... yell at the utility and get them to check their local pole grounds.

This is a common problem in the dairy industry. There is lots of material on this issue on Mike Holts's site.

mikeholt.com

Connect a voltmeter to a definite ground ( something like a ground rod ). Use a very long wire for one lead. take the meter around and read voltages on everything that should be at a ground potential. Every ground connection including pipes should be at less than a volt. If you find something confusing, let us know and we'll see if we can help. Its always better knowing what the real problem is. That way you are sure of fixing the real issue. Don't become a conductor yourself while doing this. Everything should connect back to only one ground point. That includes your pipes.

I would recommend that electrician also unless you're sure of what you're doing.

I have two agree with two posters and disagree with another!

1) Even if there is some galvanic reaction due to copper pipes and steel rads for example, and it will damage the rads over a long period, but the voltages produced should only be measurable with a meter, it should not be enough to "tingle"! I suspect that it would have to be AC and above say 25 volts or so to do that. Batteries tend only to produce DC

2) You should try and measure the voltage using a meter set to AC. I do not know what the limit is in your area with regard to neutral to earth voltage, but report the values that you read off......I do not know if there is a heavy current running to earth and whether or not its turning your meter and you are paying for it! I tend to think not (current is running from neutral to ground), but am open to correction on that point!!!

I'm not familiar with the electricity suppl system in the United States, but I am an electrician in Australia.

My first recomendation would be to consult a licensed electrician if you are not one. Electrical systems are not really something that you should be trying to fix if you are not qualified.

As stated in the earlier posts, the problem that you have descibe sounds like a leakage problem on one or more of the circuits in your house.

I would also recomend earthing the pipes on your furnace. What do you do in the stated with regards to an earth electrode for each house?

In Australia it is an essential part of our distribution system. We have a Multiple Earth Neutral system. Each installation (house, building etc) must have a good earth electrode or grid. And the neutral at each installation is bonded to the earth electrode or grid. This ensures that any faults hat occure can find a return path through the MEN connection and trip the ciruit breaker.

As said above, you can isolate each circuit in your house in turn and remeasure the voltage potenial from a good known earth point to your pipes. This may help you identify which circuit has the insulation break down.

Is the basement heating system electric, or do have another electric water heater? That may be a good place to start. It is common the the heating elements in water heaters to breakdown and be the source of such a fault.

Good luck with your problmem, and please be extremely careful and consult a qualified electrician to help ou out.

If you have a ele. h2o heater that heats the h2o , check the h2o heater element that may be bad in the tank for it will charge the pipes as the elements do go bad.

I would shut off all the breakers (or remove all fuses) and see if the potential is still there. If not, reenergize one circuit at a time to isolate the cause. My guess is that you have a neutral to ground connection and part of the neutral current is returning through your ground. You might get a clamp-on ammeter and see how much current is flowing through the pipes.

Is there an electric fence around you?

We had an electric fence which made a horseshoe shape around the house.

When turned on you could feel a tingle of electricity if you washed your hands in the basement sink.

I put a piece of aluminum foil on the cement floor and attached it to a wire -> w/ 2 LED's (opposite polarity) -> then a wire to the sink and the LED's turned on rather brightly!

Eventually we got rid of the fence and had no more problems.

What you may have is an unbalanced neutral. This happens when "Hot Wires" do not have seperate neutrals.This is more common in 3 phase circuits. What I suspect is the more logical problem is that your "Ground System" IE the path for errent voltage is incomplete and or missing. This typically happens when a cold water pipe used for grounding is spliced with pvc pipe for example.The other suspect that comes to mind is that your water meter is not jumpered, that is a copper strap bonded on the inlet to the outlet. Bottom line I agree with previous posters, if you can,t safley resolve this call in a pro. Good Luck.

I want to thank all who contributed so generously towards educating me on this issue. I'll run a lot of tests starting first to see if the system is properly grounded outdoors, at the water meter and at the boiler. I'll trip individual CB's to see if the symptoms change.

The temps here are subfreezing. Still I am inclined to simply buy a copper plated rod from my electric supplier and drive it four feet into the ground and use that to supplement whatever the house or the local utility has in place. It can't hurt and isn't that expensive.

I also want to investigate some out door extension chords to see if moisture is leaking current Those are on GFI's however and have not tripped but I do not wish to assume anything

I've a friend who is a licensed commercial electrical contractor and will ask him to intervene. First I will run voltage tests and monitor any changes. It may take some time to get to the bottom of this. When an obvious cause is identified, I will get back to you,

Thanks all and have a great New Year!

All houses must be Bonded to the ground rod with a minimum#6 AWG copper wire.

This means running a bonding wire from the copper water pipe to the ground rod, and also from the power panel to the same point, either at the ground rod, or at the connection to the copper pipe.

Before bonding was required, if a water heater element went bad, it would introduce voltage onto the phone wires, causing phone installers to be shocked, and putting a very loud hum on the line.

Sounds to me like you have 2 possible problems.An unbonded system, and a bad heater element.

Check the amp draw of both elements when they are on to determine the bad one.Voltage readings of the elements can be deceptive,because the voltage can feed thru the water and give voltage to ground on both sides of the element.

Betcha this fixes it.

HTRN