Fusion Energy

Ah, your link asked me for a password and account number.

Was this the story you were referring to?

They sure do some wonderful Science at Lawrence Livermore.

Once I saw that mirror-ball, I knew they were mocking us.

A g a i n.

I always suspected the first and second laws of thermo-dynamics were false.

Soon enough, cold-fusion will prove it for good.

Woops! That mirror ball is just the lingerie.. Ze chamber must be prepared with "shields that can block the copious neutrons". To creep up towards ignition.

Ignition ? !

What ignition - It's cold fusion !

You wrote "What ignition - It's cold fusion !"

Where is it written that all the focused laser energy is cold?!

L.J.

"What ignition - It's cold fusion !" NO!!!!

Why do you suppose the Lawrence Livermore Labs installation is called the "National Ignition Facility"?

Because there's only hot fusion ?

Cold fusion - with the world's hottest laser to light it!

This is a big vacuum container, the flanged ports are a clear indication.

But what are the mirrors for?

RHABE

What pathetic drivel. You actually disbelieve that things tend to fall apart when left alone and in the conservation of energy. I doubt you even know which of these ideas is which law of thermo-dynamics. These laws have been observed to be one of the fundamental laws of nature.

Now as far as cold-fusion; when errors in experimental data acquisition occur, wrong conclusions can ruin reputations. Had the chemists Fleischmann and Pons maintained their original claim that they didn't know what was happening. That the Physics for what they observed was outside of their expertise, they might have retained a good name for themselves and cold-fusion research. Instead we now have a vast amount of money poured into a research endeavor based on unsubstantiated results and a world that is starting to disbelieve Science.

1. You are not the first to admit it.

2. Much the same is now argued about the new LHC research - that it's a first-class hoax to extract billions in research funds for years to come, with no feasible goal (Higgs Boson? - gimmie-a-brake, please !) in site.

3. As in the Cold Fusion case, it just may turn out, that only after many years of billions spent on staff salaries and wasted resources, it will decay into a long whisper of apologies and excuses.

4. It could actually be a latent, modern form of retirement-plan, for bored scientist - couldn't it ?

This is not an accusation in any form or shape - It's just my thoughts on the matter.

"that only after many years of billions spent on staff salaries and wasted resources, it will decay into a long whisper of apologies and excuses."

There is a hanger-sized building at PPPL that houses the corpse of a dead project worth many millions of dollars. I've examined it closely but can't recall its name. I do remember that the reactor core resembles a donut that's been abused with a rolling pin. (maybe you can fill in the blank)

It was plagued by cost overruns and missed deadlines to the point where it was finally killed. Now it just sits there gathering dust and acts as a grave marker for government funded programs where problems are rarely solved by focusing talent but by throwing lots of money around recklessly until some of it sticks.

This is common to government funded programs and I am certain our audience can come up with plenty of other examples.

It wasn't always like that. Once upon a time, managerial talent, organizational genius and engineering creativity walked the halls of Lockheed in a man named Clarence "Kelly" Johnson.

Creator of the famous Lockheed Skunk Works and catalyst for some of the most profoundly cost efficient and effective aircraft ever to take to the sly.

Johnson's trademark was to tell government officials "Get the Hell out of here!" complete government projects ahead of schedule, under budget and with greater performance than asked for. The F-80 was done in 183 days! The P-38, the F-104, U-2 and SR-71 are but a few of his babies.

The fusion industry needs such a person now. Alas he or she is nowhere to be found and the results show it.

L.J.

I had the opportunity to visit the fusion lab in Los Alamos 30 years ago. About 20 years ago I was asked to help solve some problems with some equipment at the fusion lab at UT Austin.

They keep working on it, and eventually they will get it done, perhaps sooner than later.... Then I will be out of a job as there will be much less need for getting oil and gas out of the ground.

As I often say here, there is a technology solution for most every problem. This one solves a lot of problems at once.

This will never yield useful energy.

The whole system is designed to research into the very first moments of a fusion reaction.

This seems to be needed for further refinement of nuclear weapons.

There will not be any chance to get energy out of the system - where is the cooling? Or the particle and gamma-ray to heat conversion?

How to feed multiple capsules if the very first is damaging/vaporising the reflectors?

You can simply deduct the military motivation by looking at the time that was needed to allocate funding: nearly immediately, one nation only.

And look at the funding of ITER - nearly a non-ending history with many nations included.

And look to the (not much talked about) French equivalent to NIF - same story.

I wonder if we can extract some info about a similar Russian and Chinese system?

RHABE

Research into tactical neutron device?

They perfected fusion bombs in the late 1960s, and neutron bombs in the late 1980s.

What else is there to research ?

"What else is there to research ?"

Nobody will tell me! Better let is as it is.

RHABE

Are you seriously proclaiming that ignorance is a good reason to not do research!?!??

So you think that we know everything that can be known about fusion. I presume you can claim this because you know everything about fusion. So answer me this simple question, why are stars formed in different sizes? Being an expert on fusion, you must know that this is how stars produce power. Take your time to think about this. It's not as simple as you might think. I warn you to not jump to the idea that stars collide to make bigger stars. For completely different sized stars have been formed in the same areas of space without collisions.

Basically, a great mass will collide to create short-lived and very bright stars (such as Sirius), and smaller mass will collide to ignite long-lived, dimmer stars (such as Sol, our sun). Gravity there is the constant, acting upon the initial mass involved, and this variant ratio is the key-factor for the length and intensity of the element transmutation to occur, and of course the resulting fate of the star, be it a "Yellow Midget" like our sun, or a "Blue Super-giant"t like Sirius. One is likely to end as a "Brown Dwarf", another, bigger one will end as "White Dwarf", a bigger one as a "Neutron Star", and yet an even bigger one, as a small "Black Hole".

As you mentioned, the massive remains of exploded giants, will collide to ignite smaller, dimmer stars. These are called second and third-generation stars. Our sun is classified as a Third-Generation Yellow Midget.

Of course, it may be more complex in detail, but this, in a nutshell, is the sum of it.

So, can we confine a sphere at 14 million degrees (with the pressure associated) for years, on a stable basis ? - You tell me.

Right. Apologies.

So, can we confine a sphere at 14 million degrees (with the pressure associated) for years, on a stable basis ?

Maybe, maybe not. You see that's the glory and the frustration of research. The questions that need to be answered can only be answered sequentially. Fortunately we can often take another route than originally planned when we find something doesn't work. Like maybe we won't need to confine it.

How then would you control it's output to produce some viable energy ?

You don't seem to follow my point. Let me try a Socratic approach and ask you a question.

What will be the topic for your great great grand daughter's doctoral dissertation on network theory?

I doubt the world will be kept intact that long.

Because of Fusion Bombs that is.

Your reply is besides the point. There is no viable way to down-scale fusion in general. The phenomenon requires the pressure only obtained by the mark-temperature of 14 million degrees - which is why fusion-bombs are triggered by fission - to cross that temperature threshold.

Controlling or confining the chain-reaction later, is a whole new contradiction of terms.

Physics buffs know it - which is why they dubbed cold-fusion a hoax

But fusion has been found to occur at temperatures well below 14 million degrees. The technique is known as muon catalyzed fusion, not the farce known as cold fusion. It also is not productive in producing a net amount of power. It only happens with a moderately exotic particle present. But who knows, one day....

Isn't that the purpose of those 192 lasers? -to produce the required temperature and pressure without the fission and without a container. Since it is done in a vacuum, once the material in the fuel capsule has fused, the reaction stops. There is then time to extract the energy before introducing and igniting the next capsule...

As you said: once the material in the fuel capsule has fused, the reaction stops.

I thought we wanted a stable, controllable, chain-reaction, in order to produce usable energy

"I thought we wanted a stable, controllable, chain-reaction, in order to produce usable energy"

Of course we would like that, but currently the only way (I'm aware of) to control it is to limit the fusible material available. As illustrated by switching mode power supplies, if it can't be continuous, then repeated pulses will do the same job. The conversion from fusion to heat and then presumably to steam will smooth out the pulses, just like the capacitors in SMPSs.

If by This, you are referring to the National Ignition Facility at LLLabs, then of course it will not produce useful energy. It is a research facility. It is in a suburban area, where the public drives by every day only a few hundred meters away.

Any fusion reaction we can produce here on earth will only have a few moments, whether it be for peaceful or military uses. Generation of useful energy for peaceful purposes will require repeated injections of very small amounts of new fusible material and subsequent ignition.

Nearly immediate funding? I believe it was about 20 years ago that I took my class of high-school physics students there to see the first almost-complete laser. It had been under construction for some years at that time.

There is no doubt that the military is keeping a close watch on progress at NIF, but to say that its purpose is entirely (or even mainly) military, is short-sighted and/or alarmist.

"Nearly immediate funding?"

There is an ongoing history from the 1.5 m diameter CO2 -lasers at Los Alamos to the now shooting NIF.

All of this is entirely US-funded.

And there was never a hesitating in funding.

This is not a close watch of the military - this is a military program with a civilian veil around. (My opinion?.

The fusion energy this close (a few centimeter) to the fusion target and no possibility to extract a considerable portion of this energy????

The final focusing optics spoiled at any shot - no concept known how to change this????

Why short sighted? Only realistic.

Why the struggle for funding for ITER?

Why the similar system in France? (Also completely national)

RHABE

Hi y'all,

I believe that up to now, the US Military and the US Energy Dept used underground test explosions of of selected Thermonuclear devices from the stockpiles in order to check the potency of the Tritium (since it isn't manufactured by any of the nuclear weapons lab anymore).

Now with this device at Lawrence Livermore, perhaps there may be a newer way, less destructive method to check the validity of the Tritium in the stockpile "specials" without resorting to explosions????

All-in-all I'd love to see reliable Fusion Energy power plants become a reality very soon in out future...the potential of pulling us back from the brink of Global Warming would be enormous. I just hope to be alive the day when the first commercial power generation plant goes active on the grid!!!! For the past 30 years I've watched this fusion research do baby steps all along the way, so maybe there will be some giant leaps forward now????!!!!!!!

Just a thought..........

BTW, is Princetown U. Fusion program still viable? Haven't heard anything about that program in the past few years......

"underground test explosions of of selected Thermonuclear devices"

Not allowed any more.

To check the Tritium is not a problem, it has to be purified in regular intervals as the radioactive decay is going on. And spectrometry will give indication is ok or not.

There was an article in SciAm about the aging of the neutron-flash tubes - this is one of the problems of ageing nuclear weapons.

I agree totally to your statement that fusion research is too slow and any step forward may be a part of a good solution to many energy problems.

RHABE

Fusion bombs are not something which can be duplicated in a prolonged, continuous, and controlled chain-reaction.

No one has the technology to confine such a sphere with an ambient 14,000,000 degrees Celsius, for years, and in a stable state.

Not to mention the heat-exchange system required for energy production...

It may be an enticing dream, but not very real.

Luddites unite. We have nothing to lose but our hopes and dreams. Pessimism is overrated.

The whole idea is to avoid bombs! And it won't be continuous. Each (tiny compared to a bomb) fusion reaction will last a very small fraction of a second (I don't know whether it is of the order of microseconds, nanoseconds, picoseconds, or...). The energy thus produced will be absorbed over a much larger fraction of a second, and converted into heat.

From that point on, it's a standard electric power generator.

"It may be an enticing dream, but not very real."

Words to that effect were common in the '40s - referring to fission nuclear power plants.

I believe they also said the same thing about space travel, supersonic flight, aircraft in general, anything traveling more than one mile per minute, rifle projectiles with muzzle velocities in excess of 2000fps, and so forth back through history. Every time something has been declared impossible, someone else has gone and done it.

To quote Clarke's First Law, "When a distinguished but elderly scientist states that something is possible, he is almost certainly right. When he states that something is impossible, he is very probably wrong."

Had anyone taken the "toys" of Hero of Alexandria seriously in the first century A.D., by now fusion would be old tech and we'd be arguing about vacuum energy, or something else we've not yet even dreamed of! Ladies and gentlemen, nothing is impossible. We just don't know how to do it yet.

The fact that many thought-impossible dreams in history eventually became real, doesn't mean that every such dream is possible.

Some entities in physics are purely virtual and although they have a mathematical description - does not mean they truly exist in our concrete reality.

Wormholes, traveling back in time or jumping to the future, are not real, and yes, let me boldly presume they never will, in spite of their pseudo-existence in theory and mat.

Reversible states and the perfect gas exist only in Thermodynamics class.

I suspect Moose is arguing as much from a philosophical perspective as from a practical one.

Pursuing impossible dreams has had a profound benefit if for no other reason than accidental discoveries made along the way.

Besides, if one doesn't try, how does one know?

The fun is as much in the doing, as in the result.

L.J.

Hi,

in usual developments you are right with your statements. Any progress needs pushing the frontiers and limitations.

But in the device that is used by NIF - that is damaged by the first shot - there will be no useful energy extraction possibility.

If we are lucky and if the real civilian fusion projects get enough funding and if we have enough good scientists and engineers then we have a chance to get the ITER and its successors working.

The world is not far away of real fusion reactors. JET has burnt for seconds. ITER may burn much longer, necessities of liquid Lithium wall blanketing will be studied.

So in total there will be a good chance.

Military installations and research facilities should be declared as such.

Funding may be easier if there is no military camouflage disturbing our energy research. Our = worldwide!

RHABE

I just love this type of falsely focused logic. It reminds me of a carnival barker.

Yes, many things previously thought of as fantasy have now become reality. Many things we believe to be impossible today will become real in the future. We certainly should encourage our dreamers for without them we will never grow. But for each fantasy of the past that became real, there are thousands of past fantasies that did not and can not become real. To think that anything considered can be eventually be realized is a level of optimism that will surely disappoint everyone.

The breakthrough that they're talking about is that they are not having the problem they expected with plasma. "Dr Glenzer's team discovered that the plasma can actually be carefully manipulated to increase the uniformity of the compression."

I don't know much about plasma myself, but having a technology to "carefully manipulate" the plasma is interesting. What other applications might come from that?

As for the "ignition" he says it will happen this year. So they must have someone building those shields for the flood of neutrons, since there is nothing in place to convert into a useable energy source.. Wonder what the shields are like.

Its nearly 25years since the movie, Back to the Future I featured a "Mr Fusion" portable fusion reactor, admittedly it looked suspiciously like garden waste mulcher painted white. Sorta seemed to work that way too...

Before anyone gets their DNA in a twist, yes I know it was only a Hollywood movie (ferchrissake!), however this concept was predated by the Nautilus of Capt Nemo from Jules Verne's "20,000 leagues under the sea" fame. His vessel was "nuclear" powered though Jules didn't mention fission or fusion. (not that I recall, read the book 30 years ago)

Persistence of research is what makes science fiction, science fact. (not to be confused with science fraud aka global warming)

It's the incremental steps uncovered in research, that makes understanding of the complex processes involved easier to comprehend. Unless some benign Uber intelligent ET, gives us the leg up we need to make the Mr Fusion reactors. We will have to keep doing this the hard way.

Perhaps if there was a suggestion that a fusion reactor could be fueled by that horrible greenhouse gas "CO2", then we could get some seriously proper funding?

GA. This is the first post on this thread that made some sobering sense to me.

Thanks Vermin. Here's a link to the fusion page at Lawrence Berkeley.

RE: HEDP: "This R&D is synergistic with planned experiments at the National Ignition Facility.... Ignition (efficient fusion) in laser IFE targets, and validation of capsule gain (ratio of fusion energy output to beam energy input) and capsule hydro-coupling efficiency, are expected to increase enthusiasm for the end product of our work."

You are clearly correct. The ignition experiments are not production-oriented. At best, if successful, they might 'increase enthusiasm' and help to raise funds for the energy production research.