Washing Machine Solenoid Question

Timer from the door switch? which dissables it after say 30 mins or whatever is appropriate?
Del

that's a toughie, I considered using rainwater once but discovered there is a built-in pressure reducer for cold water at mains pressure which will increase the fill time with gravity-fed hot water. Also, as you will be aware they (hot and cold) should not be mixed directly due to the remote risk of contaminating the drinking water with dirty hot water and the guaranteed back-feeding of your hot water system due to the pressure difference. (Those one-way valves take some pushing open if you are thinking of using one to overcome this, hot water pressure may not be enough).

To meet your requirements would need external solenoids to overcome this. However if you take onboard the marketing, colder washes work with new powders.

Finally, it's a new machine even though the company has gone into liquidation any warranty would be invalidated by such modifications, you probably bought it through a third party who would likely honour a warranty.

This will not be much consolation but I just looked at new washing machines in a large store (Comet) and NONE of them had a hot fill input.

Looks like the manufacturers have decided that this is a feature which they can delete to save on build costs.

Sales person's comment was that the hot fill never really worked anyway due to the time for hot water to reach the machine - which is probably true in many cases but not yours.

For a cheap way out why not plumb in a mixer to the machine. Trial and error could get you to the temps you want. Then you're good to go all the time. You're still mixing, but at the ratios you want.

I'd leave it alone. The machine wants to heat it's own hot water, so you can have choices of temps at wash and rinse. One way or the other you will be paying to heat the water. Keep it simple. Less hoses to worry about. Easier maintenance on an unmodified machine.

USe the trigger for the built in water heater to operate the hot water input solenoid, then cap off the water heater assembly. . Easy-peasy, Robert is the male sibling of one of your parents.

The heater probably only turns on when the machine is half full: it certainly would not be a good idea to turn it on with no water in there.

But, on reflection, if the signal turns off the cold solenoid and turns on the hot one, this will get you up to half the difference between hot and cold. And/or will regulate to a lower temperature if selected.

As noted by another poster its a very bad idea to have both solenoids on at the same time: your mains cold water will force its way up into your hot water tank.

You need to try and find out what signals you can tap off of in the machine, maybe you can find some signals that are only related to the fill for the pre-wash and main wash.

If you cannot find anything, maybe you can find something that is active with the rinsing cycle(s) that can turn off the hot water solenoid.

If you can find nothing to help then you need to time the various programs and as someone else has already suggested, set a timer to turn off the hot water solenoid once the wash cycle(s) are finished. A programmed PIC can handle all the sequences if you are into hardware design and PIC programming....

Although in reality, I suspect that even using hot water for all cycles (including rinsing) that use/need hot water will still be cheaper than heating up using the built in electric element, as the manufacturer designed.......

As an aside, I always plumb my washing up machines into the hot water as hot water from a proper heating system like gas or oil is far cheaper than electricity to heat water.

Everyone tells me (including the sales people) that the machines get damaged by this....well I have never had any damage in 30 years and 4 machines, maybe because I buy good machines, who knows.

But the cycle times are reduced and the plates are always well clean even when only using the short glass cycle (40 minutes I believe).......in fact 90% of our washing up is done in the glass cycle.....I can heartily recommend it.

Remember also that a lot of washing detergents are now for low temperature 30 deg C and it would be even more difficult to add cold to reduce the temperature.

Would you consider changing the coolant in your refrigerator? I suspect not, so why try and change the internal workings of your washing machine?

Tony

UK

you will find that the company that make most of the printed circuit board for most of the leading washingmachine manufacturers is a Russian group called MINISEL.

The cuircuit board that you may have in your machine would be a, 1400 85dx-45dx85sx board.

But you will need to understand Russan to be able to gain any information from this company.

The basic reason for deleting the hot water feed to washing machines and the like is efficiency; the machine only heats the amount of water it actually uses.

When the hot water supply is used to feed a machine this same volume of water has to be heated, together with the water which is left in the pipework after the solenoid valve shuts, which is then left to go cold.

At the next usage this cold water will go into the machine, followed by whatever amount of hot water is required to bring the water to the required volume; the machine will then check the temperature and heat the water again if necessary to get to the required temperature.

There's also the scenario as previously described where the required temperature is lower than the temperature your hot supply delivers at; again more energy used than actually required.

I think I'd leave it alone!

From the original post:-

The machine will receive hot water straight from the hot water cylinder within seconds at the right temperature, as it is a very short run of pipe work.

No...the basic reason is the manufacture saves the cost of a solenoid.
His excuse is water regs, simplicity of install, efficiency, blah blah blah...
Del

Ah, the great "they're all out to rip me off!!" conspiracy theory! No defence against that..........

What???
Do you know anything about manufacturing?
There is a constant drive to reduce material and labour costs, if this can be disguised by clever marketing men then all well and good.
I never said they're all out to rip me off...
They are all out to compete with eachother in a a crowded market where the end user in increasingly less knowledgable and discerning.
I actually find your post pretty offensive, as I am always willing to defend by viewpoint.
I'm also willing to concede when I'm wrong.

I can only assume you were educated here ?
Del

Don't worry Del, we got him on the run, back to his nick name!!

If you have never bought something/or paid for a service that did not turn out to have a "minus" point (or three), then count yourself very lucky indeed (or very young, or both!!)

There are enough firms around that practise "ripping off" the public, you can read about them (or see them on TV) almost any day....

Just take a look at the locksmith ripoffs in the USA, UK and Germany for example.....(and probably other countries too!).....to name but one.....

I can believe that...

Washing Up Machines.

In Germany at least ( and I am pretty sure for most places in Europe too) the cost difference in heating water via the central heating and electricity are quite substantial. For people with a solar system, they would be even more significant....

For very small amounts of water, local heating via electricity is useful, like kettles for example. But above a certain amount of water, it pays to use a cheaper energy source. The break point depends upon your local prices for different energy types...and of course how much water remains in the pipes between the unit and the heat source. This is a good reason to use high water pressure (Germany has around 4 Bar usually) and smaller bores of pipes to reduce this to (in my case) around 0.5 liters.....also my pipes are all very well insulated, both hot and cold pipes!!

But even slightly warm water will significantly reduce the amounts of electrical energy required as well as speeding up the cycle (on most machines at least!).....

You really need to do the calculations for where you live to decide for yourself if its worth it or not!! Here the cost differences are significant, especially when looked at on a year to year basis.....but I would still do it to save time, even if the savings were insignificant or even non existent!!

I am sure that some good savings could be made for washing machines as well by supplying hot water via the heating system, which is why many machines are built here in Europe with both a hot and cold water connection, the best method of all I feel......!!

Does the US not have such machines? Perhaps the next time you should buy one of these........

To summarise so far.

Some of you are saying it is to do with water regulations. and some are saying it is to do with costs.

First. Water systems, If you were to have the cold water mains connected to this appliance then the water pressure would vary throughout the day, Depending on how many people are washing their cars etc, So if you were to use the machine in the middle of the night then you would get the full water pressure that could be up to 100psi. which would back feed into the hot water tank if non return valves are not fitted.

If you were to use this appliance at 10 in the morning then the water pressure would be reduced to something like 30 psi.

If the pipe work to the hot water tank and the machine both came from a header tank then both the hot and cold water systems would be at the same pressure, which would avoid the feed back situation.

But if both solenoids are open at the same time then you are making a cross connection of both water systems. Which is not allowed by the water regulation.

The hot and cold solenoids should not be operating both at the same time, the cold should not be operating at all on the fill cycle.

Secondly the cold fill only may be a way of cutting down on components, or it might be that they expect you to use low temperature washing powders. If this is the case The water from the tank might be to hot for the bacteriological enzyme's and kill them off.( I do not know about that).

In a design situation, it would be easy to add a hot fill solenoid to the machine. It would add to the cost, which drives up the purchase price making it aless attactive proposition compared to other machines.

Given that the machine is brand-new, any modification to it would invalidate the warranty, which may be of some value.

Any modification to accomodate a hot valve would need to address the issue of its attachment to the machine's control system, be it cam-timer, mini-PLC, circuit-board with PROM or whatever, such that the hot water valve was open, and not the cold, during the appropriate parts of each wash programme. However, should the OEM have designed-out the use of the hot inlet valve from the programme, the time spent in doing the proposed modification runs the risk, if it is valued, of exceeding the purchase price of a replacement machine. Many washing agents these days are designed to operate at temperatures well below the temperature of a domestic hot water system, which is sort-of-why the hot inlet valve is no longer needed.

So, on balance, the recommendation is to leave it alone!

My background is in hospital steam sterilisation.

These steam sterilisers operate at a temperature of 220degreesC. in a vacuum chamber.and the items are in this chamber for 30 minutes, the machine will run for over 45 minutes to ensure that a vacuum has been achieved before sterilisation takes place, of the linen and metal utensils inside. The whole process will take over an hour to complete.

Your hot water cylinder should be kept at 60 Degrees C.to kill off any bacteria in the hot water system, even the associated pipe work. The hot water outlets should reach 60.C. within 3 minutes of use.

Normal human bacteria will live up to 48 hours when off of the body.

So if you take off a shirt and give it a quick wash at 30 degrees, then the shirt will still have bacteria on it, unless it has been stored for 48 hours.

If you were to use a higher temperature then the Bactria has less of a chance of surviving the wash.

If at 60 degrees the enzymes in the washing powder are also destroyed then there is no point in using this powder in the first place.

If at 30 degrees this powder destroys the Bactria in the linen somehow, then use it?.

I personally have not seen any proof of this being the case.

Some folks just won't leave well enough alone. If you must modify this machine, you are going to have to purchase another solenoid valve with the pressure hose fitting on it. Then you are going to have to mount it somewhere it will not get broken when the machine is dancing around in spin. Take the wire from the solenoid that is for hot water and put it on the new solenoid, and put the feed hose from the old solenoid to the new. I would cap off the old solenoid port to be safe. Then you will need to find the circuit to the hot water heater in the washing machine and disconnect it safely. If your machine has a computer control, and will go go fault error when the hot water heater is sensed to be disconnected, all is for naught. I would do that first to see if this endeavour is even plausible.

The Back of the washing machine has some knock out points for fitting another solenoid,but there is not a hot solenoid so you cannot take a wire from it as it dose not exist.

the cold water inlet has 3 solenoids. one for the main wash and all subsequent rinses, one for the pre-wash. and one for the condensing tumble drier. So no hot at all.

Thank you for your input to this question.

Sorry, but it is completely wrong to suggest disconnecting the heating element, it is still needed for:-

a) when the water is not supplied is not hot enough for the program in use.

b) during the program, any heat lost from the water needs to be replaced, eg. temperature must be maintained..

In fact some machines will sit and wait for the water to reach the temperature needed, so if the water has cooled a little, the program may never end.......

Anyone wanting to add hot water to any programs needs to be aware of a few simple concepts that will also preclude the computer problem(s) you mentioned quite simply:-

1) Simple non return valves in both hot and cold connections (outside of the machine of course!) will stop any possible cross feeding, this are generally included on machines with two water connections (H + C), they should not be forgotten for this modification either, but correctly programmed, there should be no possible cross feeding anyway.....

2) The mechanical/electrical arrangements for the new solenoid must be made external to the machine, thus not involving any possible loss of guarantee, nor will the extras then "dance around" when the spin cycle starts. A long rubber hose (as already in use), will take up the movements quite adequately, as they do already on millions of machines around the world.........

3) Of course the changes and additions must be made in a fully safe manner as well, but that should not present any problems to an average DIYer.....I personally would make all changes (if I wanted to connect in this manner, which I don't!) completely external to the washing machine and only use a timer, rather than sensing actions inside the machine.....but each to his own....

I re-iterate, the original water hose should be used to supply both the hot and cold water through from the device that decides what is required and when!!!

Anyone scared/wary of the mains (110 or 230 volts), could use 12 or 24 volts DC solenoids and buy a finished enclosed power supply for example!!!

Not in Washing Machine but in Photo processors [Kodak] I have worked on had Auto-Temp mixer fitted which controls the temp of mixed solution to the set-point.

Have you noted any such device fitted?

I hope there will be 2 types of Solenoids & water pipe one red & other black or natural colour.

The hospital Steriliser chap he again.

in my last posting i forgot to mention that if you do decide to abandon the idea of fitting a hot connection to this machine, then the redundant hot water pipe will need to be drained down or removed to comply with the water regulation for the U.K.

If this pipe is left in place then any water in it will stagnate and contaminate the main hot water system. This redundant pipe would be classed as a "DEAD LEG" and as such should not be over 1 foot long so that any bacteria that starts to form in the pipe can be washed-out by the normal use of the hot water system.

There may be another reason as to why all modern European machines are no longer fitted with hot water connections. This is because of the soap dispenser unit?.

The soap dispenser is fitted up as high as it can be under the inside of the worktop, with the water inlets to it situated on it's underside. According to the water Bylaws at every place of use there should be an air gap, a type A or type B air gap. these air gaps are for water syphon-age prevention. example the bath is full of water and you have a shower head that has a flexible hose to it. this shower head can be left in the bottom of the bath when it is full with both taps running to obtain a nice temperature to wash your hair. The water supply is turn't of and a neighbour turns on their tap putting a suction on to the shower head then this starts to empty the bath through the shower head, No air gap.

As these machines have bottom feed to the soap trays the water level in them has to rise to be able to run into the soap outlet and at the same time it will also flow over in to the cold pipe once again making a cross connection.

So to avoid this situation the manufacturers rather that completely redesign their soap tray to include an air gap have done away with the hot feed.