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The Latest Hydrogen Boondoggle?

03/27/2010 8:45 AM
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#1

Re: The Latest Hydrogen Boondoggle?

03/27/2010 10:58 AM

Garthh,

This lacks any quantification about how much Hydrogen each "cd" can hold.

We all admit that Hydrogen has a higher lower heating value per pound than Gasoline or Natural gas:

Hydrogen = 51,532; Nat gas 21,300; Gasoline 18,000-19,000 btu/lb.

but the density of the hydrogen is only 0.0007 lbs/gallon at STP; Natural Gas is 0.005 lb/gallon; gasoline is 6.0 lbs/gallon.

How many lbs of hydrogen can each cd hold?

When I see a Tanker truck that is carrying Hydrogen compressed, I know that I would need another 20 or so just like it to get sufficient "fuel Hydrogen" to make the same amount of miles driven as a single tanker truck of Gasoline. While the "CD" technology appears on first look to consume less energy than compressing bulk hydrogen to 3000psi so that we can get sufficient btus/ft^3; I question how much Hydrogen each can hold, and also the energy required for the Laser insertion/release?

Based on my definition of 'commercial" being "having a profitable advantage over competing technologies" I don't see this as being "commercial" for Transportation. And I question at what current demands such a process would be sufficient for driving a fuel cell?

Its Gee Whiz, all right, but in the absence of quantifiable numbers, I can't see how it overcomes the "energy density" problem I have described for other fuels.

How do You see it? milo

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#2
In reply to #1

Re: The Latest Hydrogen Boondoggle?

03/27/2010 11:16 AM

Exactly correct, there is not enough info to make any real comparisons.

Describing it as a transportation fuel is a bit of a leap. [ Though the fire after an accident would surely be spectacular]

the best case I could imagine would be for energy storage in conjunction with solar or wind.

I pulled it off the renewable energy newsletter from GS

Storage [of hydrogen & energy] being one of the key issues for any of the non petroleum energy systems, I'm always interested in new schemes...

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#3
In reply to #2

Re: The Latest Hydrogen Boondoggle?

03/27/2010 7:01 PM

This is featured in the current issue of MIT's Technology Review magazine bottom of page 20.

http://www.horizonfuelcell.com/portable_power.htm

Portable electronics, like a bunch of walkie talkies or a couple of laptops for a team out beyond the grid...

milo

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#4
In reply to #3

Re: The Latest Hydrogen Boondoggle?

03/27/2010 7:56 PM

For everyone following along at home:

http://www.horizonfuelcell.com/portable_power.htm

any guesses as to the make up of the water activated cartridges?

a little less than 1/4 of a kwh per cartridge

certainly good for long term storage of emergency communication equipment [cell phones]

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Power-User

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#5

Re: The Latest Hydrogen Boondoggle?

03/28/2010 6:15 PM

Highly unlikely, less than 1% in my opinion

The sheer precision needed and complexity of the storage/retrieval device argues strongly that the referenced 'hydrogen storage system' is perhaps a speculative process that will never be developed beyond bench scale proof of concept stage--if it ever gets that far.

Pressure cycling metal hydride or cryogenic storage are presently the only potentially viable storage methods, and both have very serious draw-backs that will preclude their use in light passenger vehicles (autos).

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#6

Re: The Latest Hydrogen Boondoggle?

03/29/2010 9:30 AM

As usual Milo nails it. One of the assumed advantages of Hydrogen is the fact it is so light, but when you start adding in the weight and volume of the required storage equipment, things start looking pretty bad, add in the fact you need four times the storage volume to compare with gasoline or deisel and things look even worse. Rockets are able to use hydrogen efficiently because it is stored cryogenically and the equipment to liquify it is stored on the ground and let's be honest, NASA has never actually had to make a profit either. Neither by the way do the academics that are feeding at the public trough doing this research. So the cost of the liquification systems is not looked upon as a big deal for them. These costs however are not trivial and back here in the real world, the consumer will eventually have to pay them as a pass-through. that will be the death knell for these technologies.

The question isn't can it be done, the question is, can anyone afford it?

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