Methane Gas

Kyzine would be the go to guy on that.

See this link

Alternate Methods of Emergency Housing as it Relates to the Crisis in Haiti

I am not familiar or misunderstand what you are asking? Is this methane being produced by an anaerobic digester? Is the plant a primary or secondary or other? If it is, as I suspect for Haiti, a primary plant with a settling tank and the sludge from that settling basin directed to an anaerobic digester, the methane will be produced in the digester and vented, flared, or reused at the plant. Usually the digester is dumped to drying beds and the drying beds are then tested along with the land for suitability to spread. Alternatively, the drying beds are hauled to landfills or disposed of according to criteria. Methane production is generally a slow microbiological process and the only requirement in sewage is to assure its anaerobic. Secondary digesters are sometimes installed after aerobic digestion.

Perhaps this will help better understand what I am proposing to do. Here's the flow line: People poop and pee into A CUSTOM TOILET. It is nothing more than a modified toilet seat to fit air tight over a 5 gallon bucket. A lid is put on a bucket when full and the buckets are loaded onto a truck and brought out to the country. Here the poop is unloaded into a bladder. The bladder is made by gluing EPDM rubber to make a pillow. Ther are several inlet systems to load effeciently without losing gas and a disharge valve. The idea is to let it sit there and then after a certain time - 6 to 8 weeks, (Longer not a problem) then the discharge is fertilizer. The gas is removed and put into propane bottle size tanks to be used for cooking. Are there any major flaws in the design?

This proposal is different than I envisioned. But it has merit to a point. I would suggest using a series of holding lagoons instead of a bladder. The bladder sounds complicated and messy with a lot of handling issues. I am not sure how you maintain/fill/unload/keep anaerobic such a system. I have zero knowledge of this type of system.

You might also want to google humus or composting toilets but they may be too expensive for Haiti. The lagoons or holding pond would likely have a high rate of evaporation and could be discharged to the next in line and then possibly to a wetland that could assimilate the flow. These lagoons are generally designed for 120 day retention prior to discharge. Here is a site with some info you might want to consider if you use a lagoon. Search google and you will find lots of helpful info on some proven systems.

Thanks so much for your reply. The lagoon is out. I am after the gas and the fertilizer. I have designed a unique way to dump the 5 gallon bucket of poo into the digester. Actauuly will probably have one inlet every 4 feet so a bunch of guys could unload 150 buckets in a shift. I don't think it will spill at all but is a dirty job. I called Mike at Dirty Jobs for this one. LOL So I am back at square one I guess. The bladder is easy to make and should costabout $1.00 per sq, ft. Materials. Thats not that much a concern. Its just how many bladders would I need if I were to introduce this as a sewerage treatment for the homeless in Haiti? This is determined by the length of time it takes to complete the cycle where the gas is gone and the sludge is now fertilizer. Now I can do a new batch. Is there anybody that could help with this design? I am not a methane specialist and am introducing a tent/house and want to include a toilet is all.

Mike Rowe had an issue of Dirty Jobs at a dairy. They processed the cow poop for methane and fertilizer, all fairly simple. The farmer ran everything on methane.

Instead of bladders, consider pits covered with plastic sheeting. Have the filler pipe set below liquid level and taped to the plastic, so you don't loose gas. The gas will rise to a collector at the top, peaked like a tent to shed rain.

When the batch doesn't make methane anymore, dig another pit nearby and use that dirt to cover the old one. Plant a fruit tree or something on the spot.

I think you can use old refrigerator compressors to pump the methane into propane tanks. You'll have to cool the tanks to liquefy the methane. Start with the plastic right down flat on the pit, so there is no air in the methane. As the methane bubbles up, the plastic will rise, then you pump it off.

I really like your idea. I just might use that too. I heard plastic sucks for outside exposed to the sun. Ok so what's the matter with this: I take any air compressor and the inlet where it sucks in air I put a nipple and a then valve. I first vacumn out the compressor and line to the methane bladder. I then open the valve and turn on the compressor. I think I can get the compresoor tank to 120 PSI. Then I fill a propane bottle. Yes its not 160 PSI but who cares really. Just need more tanks. What would be wrong with that provided there is no spark and the methane ignition temperature without spark is not reached. Like Nitrogen is 900 degrees. What is methane? Just an idea. What do you think. I know I am crazy but don't want to be stupid. I also don't know how they compress methane to make it liquid. Wow that got to be humungous compressor. Did Mike poop out and wouldn't do the poop thing? LOL

Sceptic, thanks so much for the info on liquefying gasses.

So many time baloney gets put out as good information, and we need help keeping it straight.

I guess that info is about the same for natural gas, too. I plan to move to W. Va., where natural gas wells are common, hoping I could put some in tanks for the pickup. Free fuel sure sounds nice.

I will post baloney just in the hopes someone will set me straight, It's how I learn what will work, and what will not work.

Many of the missing nutrients that plants like can be introduced by mixing some plant waste into the digester- leaves, potato peels, corn husks, rice straw, banana plants (which die and fall over after they fruit, and which have very little use after the fruit is harvested).

Any design would be a balancing act between

initial costs

operating costs

dwell time

output [gas]

did I miss any?

You would be amazed at how rapidly vegetable matter "digests" in the tropics- one of the reasons the soils are usually so poor. Inside a black bladder, one would be talking something on the order of a month to turn vegetable matter into black soil (including wood chips, if they are small enough). I' not sure how much gas you can get off a pure vegetable digester, however...

A very rough guide I have seen is 60cu m of material per 1cu m of gas. I'm not sure how accurate it is.

I think this is probably on the high side and that better results can be obtained in most cases even with simple gear.

A possibility is to turn the gas into methanol instead of storing as gas.

Methanol has some problems in fuel systems as it readily absorbs water, which in turn promotes corrosion, hence gunking up of fuel lines, injectors etc.

It has a very high octane rating for "petrol" engine use (I think better than ethanol which , from memory is around 128 octane).

Unfortunately, it doesn't mix well with petrol, so unless you are using it as the exclusive fuel or feeding from a separate tank, you can't simply put it into the petrol tank.

If it is preheated and gasified by using exhaust gas heat, the heat value improves. This is potentially useful for direct cylinder injection engines.

How would you turn the methane into methanol?

liquid fuels have less issues with storage & better density

I would guess it would also be cheaper to remove the unwanted components, from a liquid.

the final step being distillation, the sulfur & nitrogen laden water being used as a soil amendment.

I haven't done more than preliminary research on this.

CH4 + CO2 = CH3OH + CO

This requires a catalyst and additional energy as CO2 is quite a stable compound.

It also requires pressure.

Burning the CO provides heat.

Compress gas to (I think) around 300psi.

Finding the right catalyst is the hard part, although alumino-silicates (clay) look promising. Of course some experimenting is required to find the right alumino-silicate.

After cooling, the methanol condenses out, along with a number of stray organic compounds unless you have cleaned your original gas stream so you only have CH4 and CO2, not the various others such as H2S, mercaptans etc. (H2S is reasonably soluble, whereas CH4 and CO2 are much less so. Mercaptans and most others can be condensed out under pressure.)

That is a rough description. The details will involve gas cleaning, heat exchangers, compressors etc, but it could be done as a batch process with simpler gear.

H2S can be processed to yield S or burnt to give heat and SO2, which can be used to produce H2SO3 and ultimately H2SO4. Probably not worth the trouble in most cases, unless the process is being done on a large enough scale to generate enough H2S to justify the extra plant required. However, sending it to waste will not make you popular with the neighbours or, in a more regulated environment with the clean air authorities.

Normal digestion produces a CH4/CO2 balance around optimum, but this depends on the actual feed.

I got excited,[ I made Biodiesel for a couple of years & being able to make methanol [or ethanol] much closer to the point of use had been a long term goal.

We used methanol as it was easier to use, having less water content than the ethanol we were able to get at a reasonable price. removal of the water from all the ingredients was a key step. any water reduced the yield, by producing soap. Most methanol is made by the steam reformation of natural gas [methane].

Good insight Garth;

'assumed energy input'

Actually Haiti is not a bad model of the 'energy future' for the 1st World.

We done used the free stuff - now what?

Kyzine

You will have to look up what pressure and temperature it takes to liquefy methane. A refrigerator or air conditioner compressor can get up to 250 psi. Not a lot of volume, but a lot of pressure. As the gas is compressed, it gets hot, so you will have to cool the tank. A common trick and safety method is to put the tank in a barrel of water. Check with Mother Earth News on this plan, they do this kind of thing a lot.

As far as plastics go, the black ones are more sunlight resistant. Solar heat may speed up your digester. Plastic is cheap, you'll only be using it once per pit.

thanks so much. great advice.bill

Hi IB,

good thoughts

one hurdle is how to deal with the corrosive compounds in the methane.

It might be more sensible to use the gas as close to the point of production as possible [insert fart lighting joke here] & used the money saved from reducing the transportation on stainless steel tubing & burners

sorry I didn't notice before,

I'll link to the other Haitian Housing discussions

Garthh,

good response and thanks for posting from the shipping container thread.

Guys the above has been discussed at length through out the below threads in CR4...thanks to Garthh's efforts:

The original thread Shipping Container Housing is over 1500 posts long

http://cr4.globalspec.com/thread/49244#newcomments

New Thread as a Compilation:

http://cr4.globalspec.com/thread/52324/Alternate-Methods-of-Emergency-Housing-as-it-Relates-to-the-Crisis-in-Haiti

How to Install & Anchor Shipping Container Housing:

http://cr4.globalspec.com/thread/50522#newcomments

Methods For Installing Doors & Windows In Shipping Container Housing:

http://cr4.globalspec.com/thread/50523#newcomments

Drainage, Sanitation & Other Issues Related To Shipping Container Housing:

http://cr4.globalspec.com/thread/50525#newcomments

Potable Water In Conjunction W/ Shipping Container as Housing:

http://cr4.globalspec.com/thread/50537#newcomments

What Shelter Designs Work Using Corrugated Iron

http://cr4.globalspec.com/thread/50850/What-Shelter-Designs-Work-Using-Corrugated-Iron

Scrap ships as housing

http://cr4.globalspec.com/thread/51898/Ship-Breaking

The new Blog started by Clemson University:

http://www.seed-haiti.net/?page_id=2

Bioneers Forum

http://connect.bioneers.org/forum/topics/alternate-methods-of-emergency

There are several composting toilet designs and odor control as well on the site...need to look carefully, lots of stuff there.

You can spray coat the interior of a container with "truck bed liner" and it is pretty resistann to poop etc...then use PVC/PEX piping to a compressor/cooler if you really want to load into a propane type container.

Or as Garthh said place near the actual user source and pipe into a central kitchen/cooking communal area...majority of Haitians cook outside now with Charcoal or what ever they can find. Haiti will be rebuilt in a differnt manner than now...small local interconnected communities

Please also remember Haiti has one of the highest HIV/AIDS infections in its population ...so there will be lots of Pharmaceuticals in the POOP...needs very care full treatment to kill the drug base....look at the US water problem now with anti-biotics turning up in small amounts in our house hold water and the rise of drug resistant viruses etc.

So composting is not a simple job at the end of the day unless the drug side is put into the equation. Methan Gas idea is OK....just keep brainstroming ideas and you can arrive at a doable system

Geoff Daly NH

Thanks all for your comments. This is very helpful.

I amcurious if anyone out there would be interested in being a consultant?

Money talks and let me see what happens for the $$.

I however think the worst scene is we say screw the gas and just make fertilizer. I would like to see what you all would reccomend for a testing procedure for what comes out as fertilizer. Take it to a lab and what are we looking for exactly.

As part of the end game was to soak the kenaf core with the effluent and then let it sit for a while and then see if the stuff is ready to go in the field. Kenaf has been used to pull out some toxins from the ground and I bet even if we found bad bacteria in the effluent we could still use it for kenaf fields that were being grown for its core and fiber and not for animal or human feed.

Just a little useless information - Whitten kenaf named after congressman Whitten was developed by Mississippi State to be a species of kenaf that did not have leaves that resembled marijuana. They released it to the research community and I have been growing it for the last 3 years. They did not know that the Whitten kenaf leaves taste better than the other varieties. I did a "Mikey like it test" on rabbits and they prefer whitten. Now you have something to talk about and impress your friends and family. LOL

But onthe serious side I believe this plant will be up there with corn because it has a high protein content - we got 34% on the leaves OMG. Now because it has such ahigh nitrogen conet then that why the fertilization program is so important - it loves the nitrogen. Hence the methane sewerage treatment plant is really after the poop for fertilizer and the gas is #2. If we get gas for cooking then that's cool.

I am changing the model now because I think it could go BIG and I had these visions of 5 gallon buckets of poop falling off the truck. I am now planning on geting containers. Lining the floor and wallswith EPDM rubber. 33 cents a square ft. Making an inverted EPDM cover so when the gas fills the "bladder" I can see it by looking inside through an access panel in the roof. I will keep this centrally located to the people. The shipping container should protect against some wise ass sticking a knife in the bladder. So the container gets traucked out to the country and the fertilizer unloaded ina laggon and kenaf is deposited in there as well. The toilet now has a 64 gallon EBPDM rubber holding tank. Has an outlet slide valve like RVs. It is then pumped out into a 300 gallon vacumn powered pump. The PTO of the tractor operates the vacumn pump. When full the tractor and trailer with the tank goes to the ciontainer and unloads. If we get gas people just use it right there and cook with it. So a poop shipping container becomes a fixture in every little tent village.

Hello inventor bill:

I am sending this site that will open up elaws for Ontario Canada where I live. If you search reg. 267/03 it will open more connections. Open the first one. Reg. 267/03 is the regulation governing the use of sludge from many sources including human waste. It is written in legalese, a language few lay people understand. Ignore the first 75 pages or so to section IX and the schedules 2 and 3. These sections relate to the type and frequency of sampling of both soil the fertilizer is applied and the new fertilizer itself. In Ontario we go through lots of hoops to dispose of sludge. The rules are intended to minimize any environmental impact and to assure the land and fertilizer is capable of being spread. Some sewage contain metals and endocrine disrupters referred by skine. Over application can ruin the land if the criteria is critical. I am not familiar with tropical land use nor kenaf ( I did check wikapedia - kenaf). Kenaf sounds promising but not for us in the great white north.

I am not sure if this helps but it may clutter the requirements you face. I doubt if Haiti has any rules in this regard or if they do likely not enforced. Sorry, but I am retired due to medical issues and not available for consultation. There are hydrogeologists that specialize in sludge use and spreading on agricultural land. If you cannot locate one locally, I am sure I could find one here with experience.

One of the issues I have with over-regulating the disposal of sludge is that it drives up the cost, and possibly drives the disposal into even less environmentally-favorable means (like inceneration). Yes, there are dangers; but I suspect most of these dangers arise from the fact that human waste is mixed with industrial waste in the collection process. In the case of Haiti (an a few other places with which I am familiar), using sludge for fertilizer makes a lot of sense because it is a relatively inexpensive disposal method, the waste stream is not as likely to be contaminated with heavy metals, wayward medicants and other such undesirable stuff (mostly because a lot of these things just don't exist in these communities), and the soil is in dire need of assistance. The collection method currently proposed offers further protection against contamination by mixing with industrial wastes (like what is flowing in the rivers)...

Forcing first world standards on third world environments is not practical. They can't afford it.

Hi Kevin,

Just want you to know that kenaf needs 55 degrees or warmer soil and it will grow. Depends on what you want to use the plant for up North. Its about the $$$. If you want to make some animal feed and like the taste of the leaves for salad or a spinach then go for it. Get whitten kenaf as these leaves have a unique taste and are not bitter. I would imagine you would get 3 to 4 cuttings - keep taking the tops off - where Haiti will probably get 10. I am hoping to get someone to plant some. Goto www.kenafresearchfarm.com and get some Whitten kenaf seeds. (named after Congressman Whitten who got the funding for University of Mississippi who developed it.) Just was released in 2005.

bill

This is starting to sound like a plausible alternative to conventional sewerage systems relying on buried infrastructure, and probably much more appropriate to places like Haiti. (The truck is called a Honey Truck). Properly instigated, I see a significant reduction in water consumption for washing waste away. Real potential practical solution- which means the UN, USAID/FEMA, et al will reject it out of hand. This means you need to get the idea into the hands of Geoff's network if it is going to go anywhere...

Thanks. So are these groups really all that bad? I don't get out much and follow anything but my next thing and don't care too much for politcs - except if there is an election for king then I might run. I am new somewhat here. What is Geoff's network. I take it its the good guys. But don't know much because I don't get out much.

Hi bill,

have a look at some of the threads I linked to& it will become more clear.

On the big arse thread, maybe the last few pages [assuming you view in flat] should be plenty.

I have opinions, but they are beside the point, you should draw your own conclusions

Kevinm,

I believe one method of scrubbing Co2, N2 and H2S in power plants today is to run the gases thru a spray of Calcium Hydroxide, Calcium Carbonate and Limestone mix solutions. They will precipitate these nasty gases out, not 100% unless you spend mucho money. Should clean up a lot of the off gases. Get left with a useable type ferilizer (wet or dried) mixed in with regular organic vegetable waste for food processing plants (Mangos, Bananas, berries etc plus house hold food wastes)

Haiti also has quite a few chicken and pig farms...use the poo from them mixed in and the Honey truck stuff from the toilet/cpmposting units at each community. There is a basic design within GlobalCon whereby the off gas would run a small electrical generator...like you see at landfills.

If all done in a blackened external (for heat assistance) environment would degrade quite quickly if O2 and any excess CO2 from the generator was pumped in through sparging nozzels...even use discarded 100,000 horizontal propane tanks on rollers rotating very slowly say 1 rpm?

I can also add that cooking corn with lime increases shelf life of the resulting masa or tortillas

the smaller & more local the solution, the easier to implement

burn the gas outside or in well ventilated places, using very simple burners, stainless would be nice, but not required.

I'm sure we could extend this line of thought

I woke up with this one:

For Haiti only probably. If something like 8 cubic feet of methane at around 600 BTU/cubic foot were enough to bring a 1/2 gallon of water to a boil and keep it there then I could probably "bottle" it in a PVC pipe with a valve and a u shaped pipe with holes in it for the burner.

Also when crunching the numbers I decided the "honey truck" although I love the name and would work GREAT but canned it because I want the benefactors of this system to get an eventual return on investment by selling the gas. If the gas cost 25 cents for a meal like in the above there might be the following cash flow.

1 million people x 2.7 lbs (poop and pee per day per person.)Divided by 7.3 = 36,986 cubic feet of which 1/2 should go to methane 18,493 cubic feet of methane. Divide by 8 cubic feet (2,311 - # of meals that could be cooled with 8 cubic feet.) and sold at 25 cents = $577.75 total income per day. This amount of money was not enough to buy the gas and pay the help even at $3.00 a day. So.... what's the matter with this?

Inside a 4 inch PVC pipe (Shaped in a vertical loop) there is a "chain" and it it has on each link of the chain a half circle plastic blade. As the bicyclist peddles he moves a gear that moves the chain. It takes poop out of the storage tank (below where the seat is )and brings the poop and deposits it into the shipping container where the poop makes methane. This a Rube Goldberg but it does save on the diesel to run the tractor that runs the vacuum pump and tank on the honey truck.

Once again I thank you all for your comments. They are certainly make me think. If we ran the methane through iron sponges, steel Brillo pads, would the hydrogen sulfide change to hydrogen and sulphur? Been told it will. What do you think? Then if I removed that then would I have a safe gas that I could compress into barbecue containers without too much concern about corrosiveness.

Also it was suggested that 1/2 cup of agricultural lime per poop would be beneficial to the end compost as well as knocking down the smell at the source?

For the deluxe model how about this: When you open the air tight toilet seat a button is pushed that activates a fan inside a pvc duct whose inlet is in the rear area of the seat but in the holding tank area and sucks the fume out.I don't think this has to be a powerful fan either, Say something like a fan that runs of a 12 V for a car. A small solar charger could keep the battery going.

As a back up and as means of purposeful entertainment while waiting for ones turn at the potty a bicycle powering a car generator could also charge the battery. I have seen expensive ones but was wondering if ANY car alternator would work?

Thanks

Bill

Look into composting toilets, they are not complicated. Also look at the MSD, marine sanitation device, an aerobic digester. It can be made using a drum and pvc pipes.

The msd won't make fertilizer, it digests the poop, and requires a chlorinator to sterilize the effluent.

A composting toliet is slow, but makes good dirt, according to the ads. You can't rush the digesting step, sewage treatment takes time.

US sewage treatment plants add gypsum to the sludge to make it better fertilizer, probably adjusts the ph or something. Sheetrock is made with gypsum, there is probably lots of it being dumped from damaged buildings in Haiti.

When I was operating a sewage treatment plant, I dried the sludge for enhancing soil, which is quite poor here in the Virgin Islands. It took a long time for the sludge to dry, so I started adding tree trimmings and leaves and such to the sludge. It added to the bulk, and air could get deeper into the sludge for faster drying. I didn't stay on that job to really tell how well it was working, but turning sludge into compost sounded good to me.

There was a gentleman out of India who had refined the process to a few barrels and about 2 kilos of routine household waste Daily. This system truly manufactured the digester gas close to home for home use in cooking. The digester is in the backyard and the gas is piped to the burner in the kitchen. For a Haiti solution, it makes sense to utilize his system. Low cost, quick turn around and sustainable! I am interested in digester designs for small, single family farms to combine animal waste, human waste, spoiled feed waste and plant waste such as grass clippings and crop residues. This is a great thread, please keep it going. Gary