Do Electric Lines of Force Intersect?

Excellent! thanks.

Give up , guys...... this is like trying to explain conservation of energy to someone who believes in perpetual motion machines. I fear that Mr. Divekar does not have a clear concept of the meaning of the word "field" in the world of Newtonian physics.

We're seeing more of this in newly minted engineers that have only seen what was in their classes and textbooks; but little of the real world. They are like a computer program that has lost a critical line leaving no alternative path to stability. They miss some important fundamental concept and move on memorizing the answers through the rest of their education without ever connecting with the lost basic concept.

I am reminded of a young hot shot mechanical engineer from a prestigious university with whom I worked some 25 years ago. This fellow had somehow back calculated from a motor rating curve to reach a conclusion that a 1-3/4" diameter shaft with a center hole and a connecting cross hole rotating in air at 3575 RPM able to produce air pressure of 375 psi against a closed wall. (Of course the manager who hired him supported his findings.) This was a sorry sight. The young fellow had a phD in mechanical engineering.

Ed Weldon

Rather unfair to Mr Divekar who is not a young engineer just out of college. He has seen life, is a passionate Indian...so what if he has an opinion different from others ? He is in a quest to clarify his own doubts.

i would urge you to take a look at this comment from him, in fact that whole thread.

http://cr4.globalspec.com/thread/53647#comment557598

kvshridhar -- A closer look at Mr. Divekar's position as well as redfred's comments shows that my initial impression of this thread failed to include understanding of the actual depth of this discussion. I apologise for the harshness that I directed at the initial image I saw.

Sadly I chose to view this discussion through the same lens that I view American popular culture and it's attitude toward science. Perhaps I am like the high school student who having just completed a course of elementary geometry views the idea of non-Euclidian geometry as something to ridicule.

Ed Weldon

This is very decent of you. i hope i didn't offend you in any way.. it was just to put things in perspective.

i must admit that the level of this post is way above my head, but i am learning a lot thanks to you all, especially redfred.... and that super link from mjb...

You are correct in your overall opinion here that most newly minted engineering students will have already grasped these fundamental concepts, but there is something that nags at me with Divekar's questions that makes me welcome his/her comments and perspectives. Regardless of the origins of the slightly skewed analysis that generates these nearly correct analyses, I find it rewarding to at least attempt to explain the confusion. But I digress, as long as things remain cordial, I welcome different perspectives from all people. I hope that Mr. or Ms. Divekar is a precocious twelve year old that is now independently grasping concepts that the most brilliant minds from two centuries ago wrestled into submission. How many of us had a clear grasp of the details of electromagnetics at age twelve.

Many, dare I say, most people today do not grasp the brilliant subtle details that Maxwell assembled into his elegant array of electromagnetic equations. (Yes, most of the "hard work" was done by other titans like Faraday, and Gauss. But Maxwell elegantly linked these empirical analysts into a unifying mathematics.)

I personally find it both rewarding and challenging to simultaneously present the fundamental engineering doctrines to somebody that "almost gets it" right in front of those that find it trivial.

See my reply #38 to Redfred's post #2. It is not the first time that I correct a (not so) "GA answer". Unfortunately, some guys haste to vote an answer without paying the proper attention to the answer itself.

See, also, my correction (#38) to Redfred's post #2 (the GA one).

I agree that this is GA and have voted so.

But...

Having seen other posts from Mr/Ms Divekar, I am impressed by his/her intellectual calibre.

However, I humbly submit that one cannot generalise all American as arrogant and 'frog-in-the-well'. Many experts in this forum have been very helpful, gracious and willing to educate. I know by personal experience. So have many Europeans, Asians and Indians too of course. It is an international community in true sense.

I have seen many nasty Indians too on CR4 threads, though they hide under anonymity. Doesn't mean all are nasty. I am an Indian too. Now you realise why I am anonymous.

Kindly see that in MOSFETs the electrostatic field and the current path are orthogonal and that is how the electrons get pushed. One side is high impedance and other side is low impedance. Electrons do not bump into each other

I would suggest keep comments strictly technical in this engineering forum - this is to everyone. There has to be a strict discipline. I do keep contributing to Harvard Business Review on Management aspects - where I have raised issues of behavioural aspects- but that forum is different. I do find quality of discussion is of a very high level there.

"I am pained to see the way Americans react.", M S Divekar

Mr. Divekar: Well you should be pained. But not for the reasons you suspect.

What you see in Americans on CR-4 (and the example of my own previous emotional reaction) is a desperate defense of a way of life that is under attack by powers of darkness that seek to reject established science and the scientific method.

Your nation is still in the stages of vibrant growth where most of the population respects the powers of science and engineering and sees them as a path to a level of prosperity they could only dream of. This breeds a widespread respect for science.

Here in the USA we are passing that point and our people, viewing prosperity as a given right and bombarded with sensational media reports on technological failures, are looking away from science toward alternative ways of thinking. This effect is made greater by the power of mass media to sell for great profit products, services and ideas that have minimal legitimacy in science or logic. Our educational systems are in decline in large measure because we view them as not having the relevance to continuing life that they previously enjoyed. A few of us feel compelled to work against that awful tide of ignorance and it will show in our occasional unpleasant attitude.

Many of the questions posed here on CR-4 are simple and include few qualifying details to permit an easy and concise answer. A responder trying to compose an answer that will fit many unknown possible meanings of the question is faced with a big task. When a question touches an area that goes to the mathematical roots of basic physics principles agreed to by scientists many years in the past, it is important that the responders know that the questioner is a thoughtful and respected person who is looking deep into the unknown corners, perhaps even into the realm of the philosophical, rather than some uneducated person lacking basic scientific training. Inquiries to CR-4 by the latter exceed those of the former by many times and that often affects the tone of the replies.

Especially in the case of students a bit of critical suggestion that they review the basics of the science they supposedly studied and mastered is considered appropriate. It takes a bit of discretion not always at hand to avoid hurtful sarcasm.

An OP who doesn't present at least some credentials in the course of posting a topic or question faces the possibility of some lack of respect for his/her position and may well feel insulted by the response they get. I always regret such incidents, including this particular one, when I am a party to the situation.

Your comment about brainstorming is worth addressing. This is a great approach to bringing out creative thinking in a group of interested people. When the brainstorming process drifts into and dwells an area of demonstrably impractical (such as scientifically impossible) ideas it loses it's effectiveness. An exception can be when all parties to the discussion are well enough versed in the relevant science or logic to know just how far outside the "boundaries" their thinking is going. The result can be not just a good idea but also the path to follow to implement it.

Ed Weldon

Ed you have nothing to apologize for this guy shows up from time to time

asking these sorts of questions & proceeds to twist any responses around...

generally picking fights & trying to prove he is right, no matter how wrong he is

Then at some point trots out some inspirational quotes in an effort to belittle his opponents

let us ponder the meaning of an acronym, he keeps bandying about

Metal Oxide Semiconductor Field Effect Transistor

the fields being the topic of discussion.

unlike Ed I could care less [but it would be difficult] about the alphabet soup affiliated with his name. I certainly don't think his classmates credentials have any bearing what so ever on the validity of the original [or subsequent] question(s)

So he's come here for an argument

M S Divekar,

Your animosity towards Americans is surprising to me since you appear to be, at least in most of your posts, an educated person with some life experience and not just a curious or petulant 12 year old.

Links to Google, wiki, and other reasonable sources of information can be very effective and efficient ways to prod posters into reading and learning on their own and at their own pace. I don't understand why you would take offense when a link is provided as a simple answer to your basic question, then later you post multiple links yourself to answer the real(?) question you didn't ask. This seems disingenuous.

No offense to Lawyers, but your analogy is not a good one. Lawyers keep asking the same question different ways until they get the answer they want/need to win the case for their client (or The People), not necessarily to find the Truth or the Facts.

The quotes are inspiring, but regurgitating a half dozen or so when you don't like a response does not really support your position. I respectfully suggest you re-read these quotes carefully in the hope that you might gain something from their deeper meaning.

After reviewing some of the posting history, it seems that the main reasons for unkind responses to your questions are frustration and annoyance. You should not take it personally. Some negative responses should be expected by ANY poster who asks a question that can be easily answered by an elementary textbook or 2 minutes of general web searching. The unkind responses indicate that you did not expend significant effort to answer the question on your own. They are not a personal attack on you or where you are from, like your response seems to be.

It is important to learn where the negative criticism is coming from and to use it to your advantage. This is supposed to be the EE Section of a professional discussion site, so readers are expecting questions to be above a certain elementary level. One lesson seems clear in this case. As a professional courtesy to your fellow members, please try to put a little more self-effort into answering or refining your questions before posting and I'm betting you will receive far less unkind responses.

Best wishes.

Though off-topic, definitely a GA.

You understood my analogy with Lawyers. You when cross questioned can never get annoyed with a lawyer for awkward questions. Similarly lawyer does not get offended with funny answers, but tries to discipline an errand person in the witness box.

I will NEVER TOLERATE anyone at anytime writing to ANYONE- that this man does not understand and that you sit on the pedestal. This happens with Americans- assuming superiority. You are also right about analogy of lawyers that they are cross examining X - to arrive at their own conclusion (may not be the truth). Some of my discussions have started with vague questions- as I am looking for coming up with new ideas- which may get patented- so I may not even mention what my final intention is- it gets evolved as discussion proceeds. BUT NEVR MAKE ANY REMARK - SAYING THIS PERSON DOES NOT UNDERSTAND ETC ETC. I have over 40 years solid industrial background after engineering from one of the top universities and my classmates/ college-mates are CEOs of TOP Billion Dollar American companies - including the alumnus who became adviser to President Obama for Science and Technology.

We need to confine our comemnts strictly / purely to technical subject.

Dear Sir I am shocked at this sudden out burst from you as it is that of a spoilt child that has not got his own way and has had to do some work to find an answer to the question that has been asked.

These people have tried to help you in your research. And have given you the time and their knowledge to help you on your way, And have not asked for anything in return from you.

I myself do not claim to know all of the answers to this post but was interested in seeing where it would lead. It turns out that the question that you asked was not the one that you should have asked. As you have stated that you have already been using the very thing you were asking the question about.

From the beginning of time things have been invented and reinvented such as the wheel that has gone through many changes in it's development. And will be reinvented again and again as nothing is perfect. As new materials arrive we will see these changes.

Being arrogant or spoilt amounts to the same thing you are blinded by what you want to see and not what these people have tried to give you. So please do not tar all Americans or, all westerners with the same brush. For example the quotes that you keep giving are from Europeans. And the financial system that we use is from the romans, so the capitalist arrogance stems from them.

We have all seen how the young whizz kids have managed the banking system. Meaning that they cannot count so they cook the books to make the figures tally up, and then find that they have caused the world economy to collapse because the finance's are not their to cover the banks needs.

We have a saying, If you want anything done ask the kids because they can do anything and know it all. And that is why we are all out of work.

We all get sent down the wrong track from time to time. But it is up to us to open our eyes to see where we are going, Rather than blame someone else for the road we have taken.

I get the feeling that you despise the American way of life because you think that they have got something you do not have. The grass is always greener on the other side. Until you get there.

Believe me when i say take one day at a time and forget about whatever beliefs you have, and try to help everyone you can however you can. Because we are all after the same thing A happy and peacefully life.

So chill out and do not take things so personally. Be happy and unwind.