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Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Miami Florida 33142
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HRV/ERV + HVAC Feasability

06/15/2010 9:16 PM

I am looking at designing a house (who knows if it will ever be built....trying to figure out if building a home I want with my specs is about the same price as buying a similar one without my specs, should I have to move) and have stumbled across the ERV/HRV questions. I understand what their purpose is and what they do (the main idea is that they bring in fresh air into a tight house) and I understand how they vary from one another (one uses the heat recovery, so the intake air is close to the same temp as the outgoing air while the other helps control humidity), but the idea of them seems to be a little contradicting with various other systems in the house, particularly various heating and cooling options that people tend to cut out in order to either save monthly energy costs or to build a little "greener". It should be noted that so far I am almost decided on ICF for my plans. So here are my concerns, I hope you can help.

1) Use of ERV/HRV with radiant heating system: Reason 1 for radiant heating system is so you don't have moving air, yet by adding the ERV/HRV, you create moving air. Seems somewhat contradictory. Reason 2 for radiant heating system (hydronic) is to use less electricity, but then you turn around and use electricity for the ERV/HRV. Reason 3 is to become more "green", to use less resources, or at least waste less, which is commendable, however, I don't know that this combination does that, which is why I'm having the questions. Assumption is that the ERV/HRV uses the same ducts that is needed for the air conditioning, is this correct?

2) Use of ERV/HRV with geothermal based electric heat pump: Reason 1 for Geothermal is because the heating of the water to the required temp will cost less on a monthly basis, because it requires less energy to heat from 70 degrees (I believe that to be the output temp of the geothermal portion) to 100 degrees (heat exchanger requirement) than what it does from 50 degrees (assumed cold water temp for fresh water entering the house) to 100 degrees (heat exchanger requirement). The "Green" portion is that it requires the homeowner to use less energy on a monthly basis. However, you still need a water pump for the geothermal water to get into the house and the ERV/HRV still requires electricity, as does the heat pump (to heat the water and to blow the hot air through the ducts). Does the ERV/HRV work into the same ducts used for the heating/cooling? If so, do the two systems run at the same time, possibly forcing more air than needed into the ducts? The end result of the mixing of the two air cycles is that the hot air from the heat pump will lose some heat from the not so hot air from the ERV/HRV (remember, the air from these systems will be below room temperature) before it even gets to the room, meaning the electric pump will have to run a bit longer to get that final temperature to the thermostat setting in the air return.

3) Use of ERV/HRV with high efficiency gas furnace: Reason 1 for high efficiency gas furnace is that it burns more efficiently than other gas furnaces. Reason 2 is that it is generally a cheap option. The condensation can be used to add humidity to the house, if needed, or discarded if not needed. Again would the ERV/HRV, use the same ducts as the furnace? If so, the same question as above applies. If not, options can be added to these furnaces to help monitor air quality, which I think would make the separate ERV/HRV system redundant and therefore a waste of electricity.

4) Should ERV/HRV require their own ducts? Out of all the various things that would need exhaust in a house, I can't think of any that would be good to link with the ERV/HRV except maybe the bathroom ventilation. Any natural gas/propane or wood burning exhaust, I would expect, would require it's own exhaust so the various chemicals would not leave any residue/creosote build up in that exhaust duct which could be a fire hazard. The same for a stove exhaust, as grease would build up and the lint from dryers could cause a fire hazard. And indeed, any of these things would shorten the life of the ERV/HRV fans.

5) A little off topic, but can geothermal heating produce hot enough water to use in radiant flooring? If so, that would be a great way to recover a lot of costs....not having to pay to heat the water.

I understand that decent indoor air quality is a must, but I wonder if perhaps what we initially believe as lowering our bills is really just allowing us to pay for an additional system. What seems to be the payback of the HVAC and Air Quality systems combined? Is anyone actually saving money running both of these systems combined compared with their bills before? How much of that savings is due to the savings from the rest of the construction (air tight ICF's, SIP's, a lot of extra insulation, better windows, etc.)? Yes, you can call me a critic of new technologies, but I really just want to do what's best for my pocketbook and if a new technology saves the gas or electric company a few bucks (less production needed), it should save me a few bucks as well, as opposed to just shifting cost from monthly to upfront. Which is why I'm asking, because I don't know if it's really needed, which cases it's needed, which cases it isn't; or if it is just something people want for their own comfort level. That way, when I deal with a contractor (with HVAC needs in any house, bought or built, the contractors try to sell ERV/HRV systems) I can better understand whether I need it, or whether I will want it (distinct difference which will be needed to address financial concerns).

P.S. Before anyone starts calling me a critic of efficiency needs and "green" building, let me add that I am a critic of "green Building" because there is no real definition of "green" it is a buzzword for salesmen to use on the simple minded. And, all this would be unnecessary, if, we could make a geothermal steam generator for the residential market (using a heat exchanger and closed loop system with a low boiling point fluid in order to create electricity).

Payless Mini Split http://myminisplit.com

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#1

Re: HRV/ERV + HVAC feasability

06/15/2010 10:33 PM

ERV? HRV? It's acronym explanation time.

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#5
In reply to #1

Re: HRV/ERV + HVAC feasability

06/16/2010 9:40 AM

Aren't acronyms on the Red List?

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#2

Re: HRV/ERV + HVAC feasability

06/16/2010 12:06 AM

I haven't used those terms enough to remember them, but I actually have just such an exchanger (along with a 12,000 Btu/h air-coupled heat pump/AC) in a compact retirement chalet design I have been working on. Coincidentally, the HVAC I have in mind is a Mitsubishi mini-split.

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#3
In reply to #2

Re: HRV/ERV + HVAC feasability

06/16/2010 12:11 AM

I'll bow out now, and let you two talk shop.

Heat pump in AK?

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#4
In reply to #3

Re: HRV/ERV + HVAC feasability

06/16/2010 12:57 AM

Ketchikan is pretty far southeast. It's rainy here (150-200 inches/year) but not often below freezing, and seldom below 20°F. Thus air-coupled heat pumps make sense. Solar, however, is a sick joke.

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#6

Re: HRV/ERV + HVAC Feasability

06/16/2010 11:40 PM

Of course!

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Anonymous Poster
#7

Re: HRV/ERV + HVAC Feasability

06/17/2010 4:32 AM

All these system discussions boil down to some basic questions:

What is the future of your energy resuorces (electricity & gas) and the renewable alternatives (wood chips, pellets, water (in the soil) size of your grounds & wood)?

Do you have water below your grounds in reachable depth? - you can run a sole/water system - with a working figure of up to 4.5 (1KW in = 4.5KW heating energy) - needs drilling of 2 wells to install the sondes - cost money

Is it not better to drain the money in insulation below your house and better windows (which cause 35% of a buildings heat loss!) window framing and roof insulation but save on energy.

This is also possible if you have enough space to put a flat earth heat exchanger as it requires 1.5 times the floor space of your living quarters. But the working figure is a bit worser (max.4) Costs lots of earth moving to a depth of 5feet. But you can still drain heat from the collector when close to 0deg.C. By cooling the house you can recycle the heat by recovering the earth collector during summertime.

The heatpumps can work reversable heating / cooling - but cooling is limited. You fully depend on electricity and radiating floor heating as the intake temperatures to the heating system are low 35 to 50 deg.C max. You might need an added heater in the storage tank.

Air/water heat pumps working figures are well below 4 and getting worse at low temperatures (below 7deg.C no output anymore and you have an electrical heating system.) Needs also radiant floor heating system. You easily can run a solar system support as the heat from solar is just addded to the storage tank. Perfect system for the 48deg. north where I live as the heat pump is not needed durng summer time when we just need heated water.

There are the modern AIR/ Air Heat exchanger systems but most are air duct based which is difficult to handle in my case for estetic reasons (we have a brick exposed wood frame structure and air ducts would not firt the concept) also these can be combined with earth heat collectors to warm up the incoming air (just some UVP pipies around the foundation and enough heat is provided for the heatup of the newly incoming air. Nice system but more expensive than the air water heat pump. Als full electricity based. Needs to be adopted to time of the year.

But as electricity can also not be considered a "fail safe energy source" For my house I will use air/water heatpump with radiant floor heating - a solar system on the roof. For the even of electricity blackouts we have a standard wood stove as backup ableto heat the main part of the house ( not a modern pellet based unit as this needs electricity to run the pellet feeder, but optional piping to integrate such a stove into the heating system as this would reduce the electricity cost down to 30% of the initial cost - but the investment in to such an oven is 2 times the price of the standard unit and when you build money is a driving force..)

THe insulation under the roof is 200mm, below the roof tiles 60mm, inside the roms on the upper floor between roof and gipsum board another 30mm, the house is covered in 160mm of insulation on top of 10 inch bricks, below the house foundation is 200mm Styrofoam layer, we use tripple glased windows and fat 4 inch internal insulated frames with 3 gaskets (cost markup between double glazing windows / 75mm frames with dual gaskets only was around 15%). As this is a way to reduce heat losses this money well spend..

(The smallest wood stove I can buy provides nearly twice the heat capacity I will need to heat the house! We had to reduce the heatpump by one step as the initially planned pump was too big!)

PS Gas and oil based systems we did not consider as these resources are unpredictable in their development (heating oil in Europ went up by a factor of 4 in the last couple of years and the gas prices are still linked tot he oil prizes here in Germany.) We did not really look into photovoltaic as the return of investment is despite of governmental support not easy to realize due our personal situation (building the house in the later ages... and the investments are too huge.

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#8

Re: HRV/ERV + HVAC Feasability

06/17/2010 9:17 AM

1) ERV/HRV - good things for ventilation of the home and energy conservation. The better units with higher heat recovery percentages are more expensive. Great for a 'tight' envelope - keep air circulating where normally it would not. You want a minimum of 0.35 air changes per hour - far less than the normal stick built house has but with a concrete and block home with stucco finish it is normal.

The HRV/AC ducts are not the same - different functions to different locations.

2) If you have hydronic radiant heating and use fan coils for the AC you do not need AC ducts (only HRV) fan coils could also be used as rapid heating which one shortcoming of hydronic floors.

3) HRV/ERV generally would go different places than heating/AC duct - two very different things. A HRV system will save you 50 to 75% of the heat/cold in the air to be exhausted - big savings for small power.

4) GSHP is expensive due to the cost of the ground loop or wells. I liked the idea but even considering a high escalation of electricity costs my break even point was out in never never land. I ended up with a high efficiency ASHP unit. The new Eco Cute CO2 based ASHP units are even good for lower ambient temperatures.

5) With a hydronic system and fan coils you can use a wood fired gasifier boiler - efficient and clean.

6) Get kitchen grease in a HRV system and the whole house will stink.

7) My hydronic floor heating system (using an ASHP air to water unit) operates at 35 deg C. The higher you push the water temperatures the lower the COP goes

I agree with you on the definition of 'green' - it means a million things to a million people. What I did and would recommend - Izmir, Turkey:

a) Max insulation - ceiling, walls and floor - worry about not letting heat leak out through the slabs, balconies etc

b) ASHP - air to water unit to supply the hydronic system but gas may well be cheaper. This provides the no air movement heat.

c) HRV/ERV - totally independent system

d) Good windows - double glazed - PVC or similar frame - argon or krypton fill

e) solar thermal water heating - possibly make the roof orientation correct to add solar PV later in the event it becomes attractive.

f) orient the home to utilize natural breezes if possible. I didn't use the AC system last summer and plan not to this year either. We sit on a hillside above the bay and natural breezes help. İt is 35 deg C outside today and I just took a nap in an attic room - not cool really but not hot either.

The word 'geothermal' confuses people. What you are talking about is a ground coupled heat pump - or ground source heat pump. Geothermal is a different animal. Very few locations have this possibility. The way the industry uses the term is confusing.

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Anonymous Poster
#9

Re: HRV/ERV + HVAC Feasability

06/29/2010 9:19 AM

29 June 2010

You pose a lot of interesting questions about HRV versus ERV use.

I researched this topic (and related topics) many years ago.

HRVs and ERVs serve to get fresh air into tight houses, without having to open windows.

Typically, HRVs are useful for very tight, extremely well insulated houses.

A lot of conventionally built houses are sufficiently leaky / drafty, so as not to require much more than exhaust fans in the bathrooms.

The fans powering an HRV are so weak that they are overwhelmed by the air flow force of a conventional air handler in an air conditioning or heating system, so the HRV ducts should NOT connect into the house ventilation ducts.

About 22 years ago, I made a homemade HRV, which I used in my house for the next 16 years (then I moved). The HRV recovered about 70% of the heat from the exhaust air, which made the incoming air a fairly pleasant temperature, even in the dead of winter. (To get the "recipe" for this design, see the below link).

At the time, I had a 2 story house with a basement. I exhausted air from the two upstairs bathrooms and the upstairs hallway, and introduced the incoming (pre-heated) air to the basement. That seemed to give a fairly good supply of fresh air to the house, except to any rooms with closed doors.

In my current house I did NOT install an HRV. I use prolonged use of exhaust fans, and opening selected windows (just a crack) to feed the exhaust fans. That seems to provide a fairly continuous supply of fresh air, but is a bit drafty in the winter. But it rarely gets below +15 degrees F. where I currently live, so it is tolerable.

For a source of information on infiltration, HRVs and ventilation, I have some documents you can access on-line. It includes an electronic copy of a book I wrote 20 years ago (Energy Conservation in Housing), with updated information I have added in recent years.

All the text data is on a Google site, but it has the links to the Yahoo site and a "Multiply" sites, to see some photos and videos.

http://groups.google.com/group/Energy-Conservation-in-Housing

On the top section of this web display is some text information with links to the Yahoo and Multiply sites. On the bottom section of this display is the actual PDF and Word documents.

Good luck.

Dave Meinert

+++++++++++++++++++

Brief excerpt from the book, Energy Conservation in Housing, page 19

In many houses there is a significant amount of leakage of outside air. The outdoor air leaks into the house through any crack or crevice of the wall, floor, or ceiling or the air passes directly through porous wall sections. This leakage of outside air into a building is referred to as infiltration. When driven by even mild winds (fifteen miles per hour), a conventional home can undergo one to four complete changes of air in one hour.1 Infiltration makes a house feel drafty and uncomfortable in winter and significantly increases the heating bill, since heated air is forced out with infiltration. Exfiltration is the term describing heated air forced out of a building.

By contrast, a well sealed home can undergo one air change in two hours (one-half air change per hour). With the use of a continuous vapor barrier surrounding the living area and properly sealed doors and windows there can be less than one air change every 12 to 24 hours (less than 0.1 air changes per hour).

In the early years of energy efficient buildings, reduction of infiltration and improvement of the level of insulation made homes far more economical to heat. Before long it was found that there were side effects of having a home extremely well sealed. The first effect, obvious within hours, is the tendency for water vapor to collect inside the home. High water vapor content in the air can be suspected when moisture condenses on double-pane windows. Other side effects occur over time as the occupants breathe contaminants and germs trapped in stale inside air.

Such indoor air pollution is typically worse than outdoor air quality.

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