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Voltage Differences Between Greece (Athens) & Canada (Toronto)

07/02/2010 11:29 AM

I would like to bring some of my electrical (home appliances) devices and use in Canada.

In Athens we use 230 Volts AC (one phase & neutral) 50 Hz.

They will work in Toronto if I choose to connect them with the system there, 240 Volts AC (two phases) 60 Hz ?

Thank you

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#1

Re: Voltage Differences between Greece (Athens) & Canada (Toronto)

07/02/2010 11:51 AM

A lot of manufacturers design their products with the varying voltages in mind, so I suppose it depends on what type of electrical device you're thinking of using. Some blenders, for example, will run on the different voltage; however, the motor might overheat based on whether it was designed to run on it or not. For the a lot of the basic appliances (hair dryers, blenders, etc.) it's recommended that you simply buy it there, in order to avoid electrical damage.

Either way, voltage converter plugs can be found at just about any hardware store for fairly cheap (just be sure to get the one with the higher rating than your device or you might have a bad time with electrical malfunctions ). Another point to keep in mind, is that some electronics require less electricity to keep going (i.e. stand-by mode) then to start up, so if you're planning on starting up a laptop for example, it's recommended that the voltage converter accounts for at least 120% or more of the products listed wattage.

Here's a link to the converters wiki page:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voltage_converter

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#2
In reply to #1

Re: Voltage Differences between Greece (Athens) & Canada (Toronto)

07/02/2010 12:13 PM

Thank you for your reply.

My question is specific. A device with rated Voltage 230 AC , one phase , 50 Hz Will work in Toronto if I connect to the Voltage which is available at homes 240 Volts , two phases , 60 Hz ? (usually for the connection of a cooking stove).

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#3
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Re: Voltage Differences between Greece (Athens) & Canada (Toronto)

07/02/2010 1:05 PM

It's my basic understanding that the only differences that would matter would be the one or two phase vs. three phase..

"Induction motors designed for two-phase operation use the same winding configuration as capacitor start single-phase motors."

"...a two-phase system allowed electric motors to provide torque from zero motor speed, which was not possible with a single-phase induction motor (without extra starting means)."

As for the 230/50 and 240/60 conversion, refer to my previous post, though to rehash, if it's designed solely for the one type of current that you're currently getting in Athens, it'd be best to get a converter with a build in surge protector.

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#5
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Re: Voltage Differences between Greece (Athens) & Canada (Toronto)

07/02/2010 1:36 PM

Basically my worries are , what will happen if I connect a device rated 230 Volts AC 50 Hz (one phase, with neutral) to the Canadian voltage 240 Volts AC 60 Hz (two phases, without neutral)

As an example, one of the devices is a 220 ~ 240 Volts AC, 50 Hz (one phase with neutral) 2000 Watts, Induction hob (small stove).

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#50
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Re: Voltage Differences between Greece (Athens) & Canada (Toronto)

07/04/2010 1:59 PM

Generally speaking, all properly designed devices that are not frequency dependent should work.

If a device has been basically designed as a 220 volt device, the higher voltage/Frequency could theoretically cause damage.

A simple 110 to 220/230 volt isolation transformer should work for almost anything (anything not needing 50Hz)....as long as you do not overload the transformer.....

The 60Hz means that some transformers are slightly more efficient than at 50 Hz, how much this can affect a device is hard to say.....as only the original designer of each device will actually know.....

If you err on the side of a 220 volt at 60HZ final output I do not think that a 230 volt device will have problems....

This will also be perfectly safe with regard to grounding issues and the like.....

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#59
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Re: Voltage Differences between Greece (Athens) & Canada (Toronto)

07/05/2010 7:07 AM

Thank you for the technical details.

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#20
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Re: Voltage Differences between Greece (Athens) & Canada (Toronto)

07/03/2010 9:23 AM

It depends on the cooking stove.The heating elements will work just fine,if they are resistive type, not inductive type, but if they are controlled electronically, there may be a problem, depending on how the power for the controller is derived.IF the stove clock is line-syncronised,it will run fast due to the higher frequency.The problem is no so much voltage as the frequency.

There may also be grounding issues because of the single.vs 2 phase power systems.Most ranges require 2 hots, a neutral, and an equipment ground to the chassis of the equipment.

Hope this helps.

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#45
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Re: Voltage Differences between Greece (Athens) & Canada (Toronto)

07/04/2010 7:09 AM

Thank you for the reply and the help.

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#4

Re: Voltage Differences between Greece (Athens) & Canada (Toronto)

07/02/2010 1:25 PM

A common misconception...

The 240 volt consumer service in use in North America is single phase and not 2 phase. True 2 phase requires 3 or 4 wires and is not used anymore here in NA.

The residential consumer single phase services in use in NA consists of 2 x 120 volt windings connected in series with the middle point grounded and called a neutral. In Canada, years ago, it used to be called a "common", which perhaps would be a better name for it as it is not a true "neutral".

The two windings are in phase, not 180 degrees out as some think, and their polarity is such that the voltage across the series pair is additive, hence the 240 volt potential.

Many will argue the statement that they are in phase. They only look to be 180 deg out of phase when referenced from the middle point of the series connection of the two windings.

IMHO... Thinking otherwise shows a failure in our trade and engineering education systems.

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#6
In reply to #4

Re: Voltage Differences between Greece (Athens) & Canada (Toronto)

07/02/2010 1:54 PM

Thank you for the reply.

I am away from Canada for 22 years. So I do not know if something changed in the mid time. I remember the stoves in the kitchens was connected to 240 Volts AC. Now I am planning to return to Toronto (from Athens)

and I was thinking if I can take with me, some small electrical devices (220 ~ 240 Volts AC, 50Hz, one phase + neutral and connect them (in Toronto) the way I am trying to express above. What is your opinion.

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#7
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Re: Voltage Differences between Greece (Athens) & Canada (Toronto)

07/02/2010 2:20 PM

The cost of providing 240 volt convenience outlets where ever you end up living will be greater by far then the cost and inconvenience off replacing the small appliances. If there are some of these appliances that you just have to use, buy a travel converter. Cheap and readily available.

On a 60 Hz system, your 50 Hz motors will run a little faster. there are many msgs on this system talking about these issues. The search function on the right is easy to use and quiet productive.

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#8
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Re: Voltage Differences between Greece (Athens) & Canada (Toronto)

07/02/2010 2:45 PM

I understand your comparison and the difference of the motors r.p.m. Perhaps the cost will be small (I will do the work) for about two plugs (240 volts) . The point is, the voltage supply (240 Volts AC) in Toronto is suitable for such connection of the Europeans el. devices ?

Travel converters perhaps there are practical in case I use them with devices with 120 volts AC.

But I do not have any, here in Athens.

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#14
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Re: Voltage Differences between Greece (Athens) & Canada (Toronto)

07/02/2010 10:52 PM

A center tap on a transformer winding ALWAYS provides a 180 degrees phase shift in reference to the tap. Did you try to run these parallel?

Doesn't work just because of that.

(use a good breaker if you try it)

Only when you separate these windings completely, you can use these "in phase", but you will need to work with 4 wires too.

(many transformers don't even have that possibility) Once you use the center tap as ground, common, neuter you definitely have 2 phases, which are different from the 2 phases you described.

The difference is the phase shift and that the phases are not generated from different generator poles or windings, but created like a push/pull transformer.

The original 2 phase net had a 90 degrees shift and has been used to create a rotating magnetic field in motors.

The 180 degrees, created in the single phase with center tap doesn't create that field in most common motors.

Please check your statement carefully - I wonder what others think of it. I actually don't care how you call it but there is 180 degrees shift between the "phases or taps". (that is opposite of in phase) Just as we have a left ear and a right ear referring to the center position of the nose.

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#16
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Re: Voltage Differences between Greece (Athens) & Canada (Toronto)

07/03/2010 2:03 AM
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#22
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Re: Voltage Differences between Greece (Athens) & Canada (Toronto)

07/03/2010 9:33 AM

Thank you, I will take a look..

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#29
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Re: Voltage Differences between Greece (Athens) & Canada (Toronto)

07/03/2010 12:07 PM

..>>IMHO... Thinking otherwise shows a failure in our trade and engineering education systems<<..

I am not discussing whether it should be called single phase or 2 phase. Let us agree that there is a L1 and L2, right? and a common neutral in the middle of the winding. Named N (center, O or whatever you like).

The article you refer to is completely irrelevant to the case. Did you read it yourself too?

I am not going to spend too much time on trying to convince you, but I TAKE RESPONSIBILITY to point out CRAP AND MISLEADING INFORMATION.

In PHASE in this case means POLARITY, measured over half a cycle. Otherwise this will probably will become a new Nope - (because AC has no polarity ?)

. The issue of phase shift between Voltage and current is a totally different matter. The illustrations in the article should not refer to batteries and phase shifts - the writer should know better before publishing that. And when using one load between L1 and L2 there cannot be this kind of shift - different from L1 or L2. What you talk about is PF - power factor, cos phi or whatever you like. This should be close to 1 and make no sufficient differences in readings. Respectfully. D

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#35
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Re: Voltage Differences between Greece (Athens) & Canada (Toronto)

07/03/2010 2:06 PM

Well obviously no discussion is going to get you to see this... it is a simple fact of physics.

Enjoy...

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#47
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Re: Voltage Differences between Greece (Athens) & Canada (Toronto)

07/04/2010 10:30 AM

"The article you refer to is completely irrelevant to the case. Did you read it yourself too?:

How can you say that? It IS DIRECTLY aimed at the understanding of measuring 2 AC voltage sources connected in series, which is what we have here in North American homes. I prefer the term 'split phase' for this system, as it is a single 240V, single phase source, split into two halves by the center tap on the source transformer.

To the OP: As illustrated by one other poster, the 240V source is NOT normally available for plug-in devices in NA kitchens. The outlets available are all 120 V. It would be theoretically possible to use a transformer to step up the 120V to 240V, but outlets are normally limited to 20 Amps, and your 2000W device would require about 17 Amps at full power, so anything else connected to the same circuit and you will blow the breaker. For that reason, most 120-240V transformers intended for this purpose are no larger than 1600W, in my experience.

You would have to either read the nameplate or contact the manufacturer to be certain whether the 50-60Hz change is a problem. I doubt if it would, since capacitors need to store charge for less time at 60Hz than they do at 50 Hz. The electronics of the hob almost certainly converts the 240V AC to DC to power the high frequency oscillator, so you would have less ripple in the DC here than in Greece.

I am a big fan of induction cooking! Unfortunately, it is not well known here, and so the units are very expensive. Within the last year, I replaced our radiant cooktop (hob), with one that is half radiant and half inductive. It cost me nearly double what the radiant unit cost, but is well worth it. My wife still uses the radiant half, since we don't have magnetic utensils in certain sizes, but I use the induction half almost exclusively. As soon as I can find the desired sizes and shapes of magnetic cookware, the radiant half will become a cooling area except when we need to heat more than two things at the same time..

Do use the internet to find sources for replacement units once you get here. Don't bother bringing the one you have on hand.

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#58
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Re: Voltage Differences between Greece (Athens) & Canada (Toronto)

07/05/2010 6:47 AM

Thank you for your info.

I am also a big fan of induction cooking.. has only benefits compare with any other way of cooking. Long time ago I was discussing the induction cooking with "Andy Germany" he is positive too..

In Athens a while ago I bought 4 individual units, about 50 Euro each, including in the carton 3 cooking utensils also! (2000w each) and me and my family use them happily in my kitchen, one beside the other in line.. on the counter, until now without any problem. I will never go back to any other way of cooking.. All the good utensils manufacturers offers some magnetic cookware. I use "Tefal"(Equinoxe & Privelege) and "Lagostina"(Nuovo Domo) , pretty expensive but good quality. Also "Fissler"(New Profi & Novogrill Snapfix) "WMF"(all). At "IKEA" I found some more in several sizes, (minimum bottom size is 12cm) in a good prices. Also take a magnet in your hands and go around the shops with stainless steel cookware and in general similar utensils. Test the stainless steel pots, which one is "catching" the magnet (at the bottom). 99% is good to use with the inductive stove.. You try the pot briefly – for a few seconds - at home with water and if it is not reacting, simply you return it.. It is still new!

I believe it is not a problem to bring my inductive units (they weight less than 3 kg each) and I will power them using - at Toronto - the L1 & L2 from the electr. panel. According the capacity (Amps) of the supply line.

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#60
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Re: Voltage Differences between Greece (Athens) & Canada (Toronto)

07/05/2010 10:44 AM

Yep - Andy is the one that got me started too, about three years ago.

I'm not familiar with any of the brands of cookware you mention. One of these days I've got to go to "IKEA"; one opened a year or so ago in our area, and we went once, but we were too early (they weren't going to open for well over an hour), and we've never gone back.

As long as you understand that you will have to hard wire them (no plugs), or install new plugs and wiring, it should work. I have no idea what the building codes may say...

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#61
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Re: Voltage Differences between Greece (Athens) & Canada (Toronto)

07/05/2010 11:27 AM

These cookware brands are leading and well known in Europe. I am sure if you check in the internet you will find the way to get them from somewhere in your area.

If I can help do not hesitate to ask.

I am wondering too, about the building codes.. Most likely they will not allowed ! Perhaps I will connect a very short cable with a 240v plug at the one end and the other end I will connect it, where the Apt. normal stove in the kitchen, is connected (behind the stove). Not easy for anyone to see the connection. I am away from Canada about 22 years, so I do not remember exactly the "things". I believe when I return to Toronto, I will figure out the right way to do it.

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#63
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Re: Voltage Differences between Greece (Athens) & Canada (Toronto)

07/05/2010 12:19 PM

I think that you will definitely be in trouble with building codes if you wire as you suggested.

The only thing I can offer is to take some European plugs and sockets with you so at least no one can plug a 110 Volt appliance into the 240 volts.....

I still feel that my method was best with wiring a 110/220 transformer in between.....

But common sense tells me that your best bet is to sell them all before you go and buy new ones in the USA for 110Volts, they also have induction stove tops for very little money.....why carry them?.....why screw around with the mains?....

Think out of the box!!!

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#65
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Re: Voltage Differences between Greece (Athens) & Canada (Toronto)

07/05/2010 12:32 PM

I agree, except for the 'very little money' part. I had to pay nearly 2 grand for my (built-in) cooktop. That's partly because my wife insisted on white color - the vast majority are black.

She also would not accept individual units. We are both short by US standards, and the extra height of ones that sit on the counter instead of in it, makes it difficult to see inside the pots.

I have to admit I've been leery of buying a cheap one on the internet. Maybe I need to do just that, for an extra surface... We could use that in the patio as well.

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#68
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Re: Voltage Differences between Greece (Athens) & Canada (Toronto)

07/05/2010 1:25 PM

They are really great, you can cook anywhere where mains is available. We take a double one camping as it adds very little extra heat into the caravan, even on a hot day!!

My wife is not particularly tall, so when we redid the kitchen, we bought a unit that was about 8 inches lower than the standard units, JUST for the induction hobs.....it also has two wide drawers, one of which holds 2 x double units and 1 x single.....

We planned it most carefully as we also did not want to part with anything up to €4K......we are also not rich!!! They have become much cheaper, but are not portable....eg. when we do not need them, they sit in the drawer....

The units have turned out to be very reliable, only one had to be returned/replaced within 6 months of buying......since then no problems.....

At around only €80,- per double unit, we can buy a lot of replacements with €4K!!!

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#66
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Re: Voltage Differences between Greece (Athens) & Canada (Toronto)

07/05/2010 12:41 PM

Where have I heard this before?

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#67
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Re: Voltage Differences between Greece (Athens) & Canada (Toronto)

07/05/2010 12:57 PM

Previously I was mention to use male and female plugs design to be use only for 240v in Canada, so nobody can plug a 120v device to this socket. If I remember well, are easily available there. No need to bring plugs from Europe.

Also the connection will be done at the stove in the kitchen, not at the main el. Panel.

If I find out that I can find in Toronto these devices with good price, yes no need to take them with me from Athens.

I see your point of view and I possibly agree, under other circumstances. But as a senior citizen in Greece at the moment (later in Canada too), I have plenty of free time, but unfortunately I do not have plenty of money..

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#49
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Re: Voltage Differences between Greece (Athens) & Canada (Toronto)

07/04/2010 12:24 PM

The article I posted IS this issue...

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#53
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Re: Voltage Differences between Greece (Athens) & Canada (Toronto)

07/04/2010 2:23 PM

One minute I hoped that the very diplomatic answer of Tornado would have closed the discussion. Like I told and agreed, lots of your statements are good in that post.

The only problem is the definition of the reference point:

1. In each 120 V outlet of the house there is a phase L1 and/or L2, and a Neutral (common or ground) When measuring the 120 it is referred to the neutral.

2. Faults, be it currents or voltage are also referred to the ground which is normally at Neutral level.

Indeed, if you split the wires @ the center tap, you can eventually create 2 separate windings that are resp. in phase or 180 degrees shifted, depending on how you

combine the measuring points.

Problem 1: these wires are not split: the center tap comes to the house as 1 wire.

Problem 2: Be careful with your oscilloscope to check the phases. You'll need a 2 channel scope for it and many (most) come with a common ground.

When lucky it will only destroy the potentiometer probe.

I don't now how you get your power delivered, and maybe that is the base of our misunderstanding, but this is the only system I have encountered in the US, for residential powering.

No hard feelings and I hope you'll find the strength to forgive me when I keep a neutral (common) as reference. Far from the clouds and close to the ground.

I try not to make it that complicated, so that we do not need an engineer to understand us, but that the electrician and also the code inspector find the way in the wiring.

I may be wrong but the concept of the power transformer, doesn't leave you the possiblity to wire your 2 coils in phase, unless in series to 240 Volts. And if our horizon ends here there is no need for discussion.

-----------

from wiki:

Here is some detail on what is going on at the pole:

The transformer's job is to reduce the 7,200 volts down to the 240 volts that makes up normal household electrical service. Let's look at this pole one more time, from the bottom, to see what is going on:

There are two things to notice in this picture:

  • There is a bare wire running down the pole.
    This is a grounding wire. Every utility pole on the planet has one. If you ever watch the power company install a new pole, you will see that the end of that bare wire is stapled in a coil to the base of the pole and therefore is in direct contact with the earth, running 6 to 10 feet (1.8 to 3 m) underground. It is a good, solid ground connection. If you examine a pole carefully, you will see that the ground wire running between poles (and often the guy wires) are attached to this direct connection to ground.
  • There are two wires running out of the transformer and three wires running to the house.
    The two from the transformer are insulated, and the third one is bare. The bare wire is the ground wire. The two insulated wires each carry 120 volts, but they are 180 degrees out of phase so the difference between them is 240 volts. This arrangement allows a homeowner to use both 120-volt and 240-volt appliances. The transformer is wired in this sort of configuration:
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#54
In reply to #53

Re: Voltage Differences between Greece (Athens) & Canada (Toronto)

07/04/2010 6:13 PM

This argument is mostly semantics and point of view. The 240V is clearly single phase. Whether the two 120V halves are in phase or 180° out does indeed depend on your reference point, and for most 120V purposes, ground is the logical reference point. For safety, I nearly always run my 'scope on an isolation transformer, so if I am careful, I can connect the 'ground' side of the 'scope to one side of the 240V, and show that either 120V pair has the same phase as the 240V. They are just halves of the 240V.

However I have to argue one point: You say there are two wires coming out of the transformer and three going to the house. If that were true, you would have no guarantee of 120V between ground and either side of the transformer. Your transformer diagram is correct; the center tap is grounded. There are indeed two wires going into the transformer primary, but there must be three wires coming out of the secondary.

Here's our transformer:

The 240V wires go to the two ends of the lower crossbar, and the ground goes to the right of center on the lower crossbar. The ground wire going down the pole is almost impossible to see, as it is enclosed in a wooden 'U' all the way to the ground. It can be seen as a vertical light-colored streak intersecting the right brace at the bottom of the picture.

Neither of our high voltage lines is ground. That way they can use any pair of the three-phase main transformer wires to bring power to individual neighborhood transformers like this one.

I'm surprised at your labeling showing the upper HV line as the distribution line. I'd think it would be preferred to have the upper wire be ground, both to protect against falling branches and lightning.

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#55
In reply to #54

Re: Voltage Differences between Greece (Athens) & Canada (Toronto)

07/04/2010 6:57 PM

I agree with your post.

There are many safety reason as to why the ground mid point is the logical reference point. But, when it comes to talking about the phase relationship of the sources, semantics has nothing to do with it. Safety concerns aside, the only proper way to analyze the phase relationship of these two sources is as I pointed out.

As to the high voltage side, yes, one of the high voltage terminals on the transformer is in fact tied to the utility primary neutral and normally tied to the secondary neutral and then grounded. This system has become the standard for utilities in North America.

Of course... this is all IMHO.

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#56
In reply to #54

Re: Voltage Differences between Greece (Athens) & Canada (Toronto)

07/05/2010 3:27 AM

You are right again about the 3 wires. L1, L2 and a Neutral/ ground.

I see your transformer has 3 insulated connectors on the drum for these. And most of the time, if installed correctly the ground (metal) of the drum is also connected to the center tap. Some transformers have that fixed internally and have just some bolts on the drum to use that ground or neutral.

I found an interesting piece of video about how it really looks like. In case one might be interested.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tUO3o5JTGhQ

It shows what I meant with the coils of L1 and/or L2 are not easy to separate. Hasn't the US a 120V net as residential standard, easy to use as 240V between L1 and L2,without the neutral/ground. And not to use with L1 conected to L2 without significant dangerous shorting current short cuts.

""to one side of the 240V, and show that either 120V pair has the same phase as the 240V. They are just halves of the 240V. = correct, but that is explaining a 240 net

compatibilty.

RESPECTFULLY YOURS, D

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#57
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Re: Voltage Differences between Greece (Athens) & Canada (Toronto)

07/05/2010 3:45 AM

Great video!!

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#62
In reply to #56

Re: Voltage Differences between Greece (Athens) & Canada (Toronto)

07/05/2010 11:58 AM

Yes, all of the connections to the transformer are insulated. There appears to be an uninsulated lug mounted on the drum just under the center low-voltage tap, but it is unused. It looked again, and took some more pictures, but the sun is just too bright and in the wrong position right now. I can not see any ground (or any other) connection to the drum. In fact I can't see any ground wire come out from the end of the wooden U channel at all. I'll go back when the light is different.

You can't see it in this photo, but both of the high voltage connections are insulated as well. For whatever it's worth, this transformer is nearly 50 years old. I've lived in the house 40 years, and the transformer's overload light has been on for most, if not all, of those 40 years.

"to one side of the 240V, and show that either 120V pair has the same phase as the 240V. They are just halves of the 240V. = correct, but that is explaining a 240 net"

Once again, the arguments here are indeed mostly semantics. The transformer shown supplies 4 houses with three wires each. These three wires are connected to the two ends and the center tap of a 240V transformer winding, with all houses connected in parallel. Does this constitute a net? Is this a 120V net or a 240V net? In my opinion it is both. My Oven, my cooktop, and my milling machine all run on 240V Everything else runs directly or indirectly on 120V.

Neither you, nor North, are 'wrong'. You are simply seeing the correct information from different points of view. I tend to agree with North's point of view that the system is effectively two 120V sources connected in series, and to get 240V from those two sources, they MUST be in phase with each other. Your point of view, using neutral as the reference point, introduces an apparent 180° phase shift that is NOT REAL.

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#64
In reply to #62

Re: Voltage Differences between Greece (Athens) & Canada (Toronto)

07/05/2010 12:21 PM

GA for a really good post....Anyone (almost) should understand that fully.....

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#27
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Re: Voltage Differences between Greece (Athens) & Canada (Toronto)

07/03/2010 12:05 PM

I think not to give any description as a centre-tapped transformer has additive voltage not the substractive.

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#31
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Re: Voltage Differences between Greece (Athens) & Canada (Toronto)

07/03/2010 12:33 PM

Right for the USA part. Only the N should be connected with disconnecting possibility in the distribution panel.

There are special jumpers in it for that.

Europe does not supply that kind of residential voltages you are indicating.

The old nets can have 110/220 Volts AC/50 Hz, but that is 50 years ago for the West European Part.

I have no knowledge about the countries that joined after the 12 members.

The center tap is not used.

All voltage standards are derived from:

either delta 220 Volts 3 phase

or star (wye) 220/380 Volts 3 phase plus neutral.

Your example Europe does not reflect the reality.

Some industrial customers have different voltages, as High voltage clients - 10.000 Volts. 100.000 Volts or different values, they can install transformers at their requested voltages.

I am in the Bahamas, a nation that implements the CANADIAN code for electricity. Our power supplier is actually Canadian too.

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#42
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Re: Voltage Differences between Greece (Athens) & Canada (Toronto)

07/04/2010 5:33 AM

Please read my comments:

<<< I think not to give any description as a centre-tapped transformer has additive voltage not the substractive >>>

It were only whether add or ... Nothing else!

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#51
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Re: Voltage Differences between Greece (Athens) & Canada (Toronto)

07/04/2010 2:02 PM

Good post, thanks.

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#52
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Re: Voltage Differences between Greece (Athens) & Canada (Toronto)

07/04/2010 2:21 PM

Thanks for saying so...

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#9

Re: Voltage Differences between Greece (Athens) & Canada (Toronto)

07/02/2010 2:45 PM

There might be some safety issues to check, related to what is grounded (earthed) or not within either type of appliance.

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#11
In reply to #9

Re: Voltage Differences between Greece (Athens) & Canada (Toronto)

07/02/2010 3:20 PM

Thank you for the reply.

I know the ground connection.

Thanks

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#10

Re: Voltage Differences between Greece (Athens) & Canada (Toronto)

07/02/2010 3:03 PM

As far as your cooking plate, no problem. I use a Miele from Europe here too. On 240 Volts/60 Hz - no problems. Induction motors will run faster and NOT burn out. That happens only to 60Hz windings, used on 50Hz.

What else you want to bring?

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#12
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Re: Voltage Differences between Greece (Athens) & Canada (Toronto)

07/02/2010 3:38 PM

Thank you for the reply.

You mean your Miele device, (one phase + neutral) was connected without a "neutral" there,( as it is required in Europe ?) If you can explain more, where you connect it. I will appreciated it.

Mainly I want to know about my Induction small stove (rated 220~240 Volts AC 50 Hz 2000 Watts)

The other devices are some Bosch el. Tools and chargers among others.

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#15
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Re: Voltage Differences between Greece (Athens) & Canada (Toronto)

07/03/2010 12:00 AM

What you need to do is get the ground in place. Miele has that possibility. And when the neutral and ground is connected in the net, it is not even a big deal. I connect it to the metal parts, away from electrical connections. When that part is separated, you can easily connect between L1 and L2. In my case I needed to change one time, because it is controlled with finger tip sensors. It worked both ways, but one was more sensitive. Your stove should be not different. To these posts they usually provide L1 and L2. Your outlets probably have only one. (120V) just do not mix the type of outlets or you will put 120 V devices in 240 V when the wive makes you nervous. The other way around is no problem.

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#17
In reply to #15

Re: Voltage Differences between Greece (Athens) & Canada (Toronto)

07/03/2010 5:55 AM

If I understand well, I will connect one wire(hot) of my device to L1(hot) and the other wire(neutral) to L2(hot) at the house (Toronto) main electrical panel ?

The ground wire in Athens - Greece public electrical system is always separated from the neatral.

The device (induction hob) is "double insulated" there are not exposed metal parts. So there is no ground wire available (not required by the law) in this case, as far as I know.

It is worthy to mention here, the cooker (small stove) is working by "induction." It is not a common resistance hot plate stove..

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#25
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Re: Voltage Differences between Greece (Athens) & Canada (Toronto)

07/03/2010 11:20 AM

Europe has a lot of double isolation appliances, which is a very safe way to go. I just have put the metal board (stainless steel) glass holder and the box to the ground. An adapter if you want to use it for the small appliances is nothing more than a step up transformer. Your might consider one with separate windings (isolation transformer) Your understanding is correct.

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#13

Re: Voltage Differences between Greece (Athens) & Canada (Toronto)

07/02/2010 10:51 PM

A purely resistive load, like a hot plate, can be successfully and safely energized by both hot leads of the split phase 240VAC power provided in Canada. But I do wonder why would one want to bother to do this just for a hot plate or a few appliances. Like the USA, I expect most outlets in Canada will have one 120VAC power connection to neutral and not the 240VAC split phase power. So where ever you are going with these appliances you will not readily find power outlets with this voltage available. A hot plate with the correct plug type that will operate on 120VAC is only some $20. But if your appliance has some magical irreplaceable quality then a step up adapter transformer can be used and are readily available. But some motorized appliances will not behave precisely the same because of the frequency change from 50→60 Hz.

To summarize, yes it can be done but it is rarely worth the effort.

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#18
In reply to #13

Re: Voltage Differences between Greece (Athens) & Canada (Toronto)

07/03/2010 6:25 AM

In my case, some of my appliances are not pure resistive loads..

In fact are Induction hobs, which they incorporate also a small

Motorized cooling fan in order to keep the coil and a small electronic printed circuit from over heated.

In this case I can safely energized (through a breaker) by both hot leads of the split phase 240VAC power provided in Canada ?

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#19
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Re: Voltage Differences between Greece (Athens) & Canada (Toronto)

07/03/2010 8:52 AM

Yes it can be done, but you still do not understand the complications.

When you arrive here with this appliance you will not find any household wired that provides 240VAC split phase power to any power outlet with a Greek standard outlet connection. The very few outlets that do provide 240VAC power will have a different style connector than what you find in your wall in Greece. These few outlets will be dedicated to some existing appliance; clothes dryer, cooking range, stove, oven, air conditioner. This outlet will not be conveniently placed for use by anything but the existing appliance that uses it. So to provide an easy access for your appliance will require a new power circuit run for your appliance. The electrician will not install any European standard outlet connector without a waiver from the local zoning board. So you will still have to cope with some wiring adapter for your appliance or rewire your appliance to take the North American style connector. The cost for you to ship your appliance here, rewire a residence, rewire your appliance will be much more than just buying this appliance in Canada.

Now if this device is some exotic, unique item that will not be readily available in Canada like a scientific experiment assembly, then the industrial environment that this machine will be used in will likely have 240VAC outlets available for your use.

So to again summarize, you can safely operate some appliances this way. But for any household appliance, it is not worth the efforts.

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#21
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Re: Voltage Differences between Greece (Athens) & Canada (Toronto)

07/03/2010 9:29 AM

Thank you for the details. As long as I can connect these devices to the 240 Volts AC at the main electr. panel of a ordinary house in Toronto it is fine with me.

All the other matters I can handle easily by myself.

I will be back as a senior citizen, so I will have free time, as I close my business in Athens as an electrician.

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#24
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Re: Voltage Differences between Greece (Athens) & Canada (Toronto)

07/03/2010 10:52 AM

If the appliance is double Insulated, meaning that the neutral is not connected to the ground/metal body of the appliance, you can use the 240V between two phases in Toronto (you are wiring directly from the incoming panel if it has 2 phases (or 3phases ) on it.

The frequency is the only thing to worry about: The induction heating Hot plate will probably perform less: at 60Hz, the Impedance (or ac resistance) will increase from 50HZ by 20% therefore reducing the current by the same amount and the power will be reduced. How much this will affect the stove performance to make you happy and accommodating this is in your court.

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#34
In reply to #24

Re: Voltage Differences between Greece (Athens) & Canada (Toronto)

07/03/2010 1:51 PM

Thank you for the useful details.

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#26
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Re: Voltage Differences between Greece (Athens) & Canada (Toronto)

07/03/2010 11:46 AM

You're a Greek electrician. You don't know if you can wire an appliance outside of Greece. So you ask an anonymous group of self appointed and actual engineers that have no authority with Canadian electrical wiring standards. This can go from benign to tragic in a heartbeat.

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#36
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Re: Voltage Differences between Greece (Athens) & Canada (Toronto)

07/03/2010 2:43 PM

Hi Red Fred, this cooking plate is an appliance, to connect, like your stove.
Where I live, the AC , the cooking unit, the oven and the warm water heater all get L1 and L2.
So the 240 is right at the spot. This Miele plate comes without plug and or needs one if there is a outlet, or is connected right in the box with the conductors attached.
A $2,000 cooking top has no $20 heating elements in it. There is no hassle involved in connecting it properly, when the wires are in place. I agree for the other part.

I forgot to clean it before taking the picture.

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#37
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Re: Voltage Differences between Greece (Athens) & Canada (Toronto)

07/03/2010 3:15 PM

I still stand by my comment that it is rare that it is worthwhile to transplant used appliances of any type across an ocean. Now these appliances may have some sentimental or unique capability that proves the exception, but if cost is the only criteria then I wonder why the transplant. Thinking this a little deeper, will the kitchen in Greece now be without any appliances?

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#38
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Re: Voltage Differences between Greece (Athens) & Canada (Toronto)

07/03/2010 3:38 PM

I appreciate your standpoint. Maybe emotions? I have something funny to tell about it: In 1996, Philips introduced a digital TV, where you could watch 7 different channels on the display. I got if for a present for a job I did. Was the only multi standard available and PAL/SECAM/NTSC compatible. Brought it to the Bahamas, paid 180% import taxes on it, converted it to 240 and was embarrassed that it made hissing noises when text appeared. Had to change the audio to mono to get rid of it. Not half of the features worked here. It served me 10 years and had it repaired in the US, $210.00 and it worked 5 days before it broke down again. For that price you can buy quite a new set in the US already. After these years, not a lot of European stuff is still in place. Sentiments maybe? Take care. D

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#23

Re: Voltage Differences between Greece (Athens) & Canada (Toronto)

07/03/2010 10:23 AM

As someone entirely unschooled in mattters electrical, I wonder if the Greek cooktop will be affected by the change in frequency? A resistive device would be OK but does not the change in frequency not also change the inductance and if so, is that an issue?

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#30
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Re: Voltage Differences between Greece (Athens) & Canada (Toronto)

07/03/2010 12:23 PM

Induction heaters I believed are electronic devices that has its own built-in power supply that powers a high frequency oscillator that will in turn drive a power module which in turn drives the driven element that produces a precise amount of controlled heating. Devices similar to the one used in annealing or tempering of power cables.

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#28

Re: Voltage Differences between Greece (Athens) & Canada (Toronto)

07/03/2010 12:06 PM

I presume your induction type heater / stove is an electronic heating device that has an built-in internal power supply derived from a 230VAC. The simplest way is to just replaced your appliance power plug to match the North American standards and conventional way designated for 220, 230, or 240 V applications. As an example, is to install a special type of female connector, like the crow foot type with a matching crow foot male plug, wired for 220v utilizing the L1 - L2 lines with the 3rd prong wired to ground. Typically this type of wiring or set up is protected by a dedicated 20A CB. The outcome will be a dedicated circuit with a special outlet meant only to be used by your stove.

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#32
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Re: Voltage Differences between Greece (Athens) & Canada (Toronto)

07/03/2010 1:41 PM

Thank you for the reply.

Your answer is realistic and practical. Just in my case there is no ground.

The device is "double insolated".

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#33
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Re: Voltage Differences between Greece (Athens) & Canada (Toronto)

07/03/2010 1:50 PM

Double insulated equipment are normally exempted on the grounding requirement of the code. As in any other applications, ground is required and meant for user's safety in case of equipment malfunction, serving as a path for any excess electrical leakage currents.

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#39

Re: Voltage Differences between Greece (Athens) & Canada (Toronto)

07/04/2010 12:42 AM

For any device to be termed as Induction heating Device with isolation there ought to be some internal circuitory of the device itself to change the normal supply frequency to a much higher frequency to efficiently heat up the medium.

If you can get the working frequency (of the device) from the manufacturers brouchures the matter can be properly concluded and do check it out if the device works on the principal of microwaves or hysteresis (eddy currents) or is it both.

Concerns about single or two phase connection are are not well founded as long as voltage at the connecting socket is in the range 230 ~240 volts all is normal.

In the absence of concrete asessment data my guess is the the device will work in both places except that the performance paramers will change marginally.

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#43
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Re: Voltage Differences between Greece (Athens) & Canada (Toronto)

07/04/2010 6:52 AM

Thank you for the reply.

This induction hob is 2000w,220~240v,AC,50Hz

No other info are available.

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#40

Re: Voltage Differences between Greece (Athens) & Canada (Toronto)

07/04/2010 1:51 AM

The article cited by North of 60 contains this line near the end: Reversing polarity adds 180o to phase angle.

For what it's worth, a vector diagram, even for unbalanced circuits, shows the magnitudes of the relevant voltages (lengths of line segments) AND the angular phase relationships (= oriented angles between line segments). Thus, to pick one example, in a 240/3 system with center tap N between A and B, voltages AB, BC, and CA are 240v and 120° apart. Voltages AN and BN are 120v and 180° apart. Voltage CN is 208v and is 90° apart from AN and BN.

(This explanation is incomplete. It depends on the the word "oriented," which I haven't figured out how to describe unambiguously.)

As to this little controversy between N of 60 and dvmdsc, if you take N as the reference point, voltages AN and BN are 180° apart from each other. But if you opt for 2 reference points, A for the AN part and N for the NB part, these voltages are in phase. From what I understand, this latter way of looking at it is unconventional.

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#48
In reply to #40

Re: Voltage Differences between Greece (Athens) & Canada (Toronto)

07/04/2010 12:15 PM

"if you take N as the reference point"

You have hit the head of the nail.

You can not use the common point between the two windings as any sort of reference to properly evaluate the phase relationship of the two sources. Doing so introduces the 180 degree shift that is just not there.

Consider this... a 240 volt single phase transformer with two 120 volt separate windings wound on the transformer core so that x1 of one winding is the same "polarity" as the other x1 on the other winding.

Would you say there is any phase differential between these two 120 sources? No of course not.

If you were to scope the windings, you would put your probe tip on the x1 of a winding and the shield from the probe on the x0 terminal of that winding. You would scope the other winding in the exact same fashion. The scope would show two identical wave forms with...

NO PHASE DIFFERENTIAL BETWEEN THEM

Now we come along and tie the x0 of the first winding to the x1 of the second winding and low and behold we now have a 240 volt single phase source that is made of two 120 volt sources connected in series with there polarity such that the voltage potential across the series pair is additive.

So... let us now call these points on this 240/120 volt 3 wire split phase system, L1, L2 and N. Forget the fact that the neutral is grounded, that is irrelevant to this discussion.

To properly evaluate the phase relationships present in this system, it must be evaluated as such, (L1 to the N) vs (N to L2). Doing anything other then this introduces the APPEARANCE of a phase offset.

The big problem here is that we have come to consider the grounded common point in this system as then "reference" point. It is no such thing. It is nothing more then the middle of a series circuit.

I have looked and found an even better site that explains this in even clearer terms. Perhaps the material there can help some among us understand this "crap" easier.

http://www.electronicspoint.com/simple-vector-addition-t222626.html

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#41

Re: Voltage Differences between Greece (Athens) & Canada (Toronto)

07/04/2010 5:15 AM

For 50 or 60 Hz frequency manufacturers of induction heating for instance Siemens do not discriminate, please check for yourself at the following web site; both 50 and 60 Hz are applicable

http://we-sell-it.co.uk/value/prodpages/siemens-appliances/EH675ME11E.htmlurself site

In general nearly all the manufacturers I have checked do not specify power supply frequency as the binding criteria for the normal use so it goes well.

As long as the voltage at the connection socket is 220~230 volts the unit will work trouble free, please check also

http://www.hk-phy.org/energy/domestic/cook_phy/flash/induction_e.html

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Location: Athens - Greece
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#44
In reply to #41

Re: Voltage Differences between Greece (Athens) & Canada (Toronto)

07/04/2010 7:04 AM

Thank you for the reply.

I will check the sites, for more details.

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#46
In reply to #44

Re: Voltage Differences between Greece (Athens) & Canada (Toronto)

07/04/2010 9:50 AM

http://we-sell-it.co.uk/value/prodpages/siemens-appliances/EH675ME11E.html

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