Drugs in School

Hey ronseto, This isn't going to give you any help, but, for as long as there have been kids, squealing, ratting out, etc. has always been a no-no. It certainly was that way when I was a kid and I suspect that hasn't changed. Sorry I couldn't be more encouraging.

That is very true and I would respect that except when it comes to drugs. Kids have to learn that is ok to rat-out when it comes to drugs. Anything else, pales by comparison.

"Kids have to learn that is ok to rat-out when it comes to drugs. Anything else, pales by comparison."

So you say, but Mick Jagger and Kieth Richards are still going strong, Willie Nelson and Merle Haggard are still going strong, Johnny Cash lived to a decent age. There are many many more examples that make the message seem like just another adult lie. They see the hypocrisy of legislators who sup liberally on hard liquor, making pot, another recreational drug, illegal.

I'm not in favor of the use of any drugs, I drink a beer or a glass of wine occasionally, and sometimes, a single malt, but not often and not to excess.

"Kids have to learn that is ok to rat-out when it comes to drugs. Anything else, pales by comparison."

Try explaining that to them when they're in prison.

Ronseto, there's a critical aspect beyond the normal not squealing aspect of youth that happens with drugs. A novice drug user does not get their first drugs from that hideous, sinister stranger in a back alley, their first drugs comes from a friend. You don't rat on a friend until you are really cornered yourself, and often not even then. This is a classic six degrees of separation problem. Somewhere in in the collective network of a friend of a friend of a friend.... there's somebody already addicted enough that he'll risk meeting that guy in the alley. This guy will apply basic business markup techniques so that he feeds his habit at a discount by helping his friends.

I think you nailed it.

My contribution: kids have built in Hypocrisy detectors calibrated to the millionth decimal place. So behaviors that parents model need to be congruent with what they say.

We home schooled, but not to keep them away from the drug problem as much as to ACTUALLY GET THEM EDUCATED. When there are major overarching fill your consciousness and time goals that everyone is devoted to, the distraction of drugs has no room or time to take hold.

So in my view, the fact that the kids aren't being fully engaged in school, home etc is part of the problem.

Milo

This is very true and the 'drug dealing network' is a lot more hapenstance than it is organized. Most young kids probably steal the drugs from thier older siblings or even their parents. It's not like they have a lot of extra income to go downtown and buy it.

Hey ronseto, I've been putting a little more thought into your OP and I've reached the conclusion that it is not a good idea to encourage your grandkids to squeal on drug dealers, ever. The harsh reality is that the cartels that bring these drugs in have absolutely no problem killing anyone that threatens their lucrative trade, including children, law enforcement, etc. Teach the grandkids to avoid drugs and the people that sell them, period. They have nothing to gain by squealing, (another dealer will replace the one they squealed on within hours), and everything to lose. This is an unfortunate situation, but very true I'm afraid. The main dealer, with the guns and direct ties to the cartel is not off in some far away jungle, he/they probably live within a few miles of your grandkids.

This sounds remarkably like capitulation to EVIL.

Even the French managed guerilla warfare against the Vichy government and German occupation in WWII.

You are saying that we as AMERICANS don't even have the ability to resist evil that the French displayed? (Please, no comments about federal inability to keep borders secure that is another topic...) I'm talking about us as citizens like the founding fathers originally envisioned. (OF THE PEOPLE BY THE PEOPLE FOR THE PEOPLE...

No more 4th of July parades for your Grandkids!

Someone on here has a tagline about all that it takes for evil to prosper is for enough good people to do nothing.

That sounds an awful lot like what you just said.

I am not for giving the devil his due. I am for not giving these people any comfort support or opportunity.

Matter of fact, someone gives my kids drugs, they better hope the police get there before I do.

No brag. Just a very passionate father. Milo

Not to disagree with your sentiments although I'm not totally on board, but your analogy is wrong; the drug dealers are the guerrillas who operate out of the shadows and government is government.

Organized crime was built on Prohibition, but booze was removed from it's portfolio by the 21st Amendment. There is a lesson there.

Milo, with all due respect, you are truly naive if you think these kids can accomplish what law enforcement cannot, by turning in drug dealers. I too am a passionate father. I have had brushes with these people, and I can assure you, they are ruthless.

Do you tell your kids to go to school and turn in any drug dealers that they hear about? If so, IMO, you are playing a dangerous game with your kids safety and welfare.

I stand by my post. Attempting to get kids involved in drug enforcement at their schools or out in the streets is a bad idea. This does not make your kids cowards, but it will keep them alive and well.

Not sure how you equate war time occupied France and their resistance, to children selling drugs to children in school. Are you saying as they did put our children in to harms way in order to fight a war on drugs?

Best way I can see to fight this war is teach our children the morals that will not lead them to be tempted to try the drugs. With out a market they have nothing the war is won.

Teaching your child those morals will do more for your child. Then if you caught all those that tempted them with drugs and did what your post implied you would do. You will not always be around to make that judgement for them. Best they learn some principles to make it for themselves.

This is intended for all following this post.

There is a organization that if pressured would be the solution. Its called the PTA if you feel there is real problem in your child's school. There you will find other of like mind to support in that pressure. With enough voices you will be surprise what you can get the local government to do in the protection of our children.

My point was that the even the French who are not known for their martial valor tried to resist. To ignore the elephant in the room and appease and leave the dealers have their way is not a lesson that i gave my kids.

As I pointed out modelling the desired behaviors is how one truly teaches.

To Allow the subject of who is selling drugs in their school to be an officially recognized "taboo subject" in my Family is a non starter.

The first point of problemsolving is identifying the problem,and everyone closing their eyes to it for fear of consequences isn't going to get any closer to solution.

By the way I understand my metaphor is reversed from the standpoint of official vs guerilla ; I was using it to point out WHAT IS MORAL AGENCY AND MORAL courage, vs capitulation and herd obedience.

My daughter went to West Point where they have an HONOR CODE, and I can assure you it didn't say a damn thing about letting Drug sellers or other criminals alone to ply their trade.

Character ain't necessarily easy, but it is unmistakeable.

Milo

Milo, first of all, congratulations are in order, I'm sure you are very proud of your daughter, and you deserve to be. But, the OP referred to inner city schools and rural schools, these are not West Point.

Thanks. Not really talking about my daughter, my point was that West point (and all the service academies are exemplars of an honor code, and that it works.

If you saying that inner city and rural schools should not be held to the same levels of character ethics and values then there is not really much point in asking the original question, is there?

Either we are a society of laws and ethics, or we are not.

It is easy for us to look at the failings in other countries, but Ronseto has given us an example of our own failings...

Milo

Even in a herd if something disrupts social order many will split off and form another herd.

If those of this new herd approach the authorities in number they will address it for all.

I see no need to place a child in harms way. Even if they are willing they may not be able to handle the consequence. Physically or mentally.

I know well of the military honor code. I am the son of Lt. Col Retired. Dad was Veteran of WII & Korea.

Congratulation on being a great father.

They may know it goes on. If they don't travel in those circles and do drugs they may not know whom is supplying them. All they may know is rumor. School can be bad enough with out asking a 5th grader to start policing it. It takes a strong will to stand up to the scrutiny of their peers to do so.

Then what about those friends, school being a environment where they socialize with a lot of people their age. Some of those friendships last a life time. Now look at yourself do you have a really good friend that's a cop. Some one that you sit and share the same confidence that you are asking your grand kids to share with you. Most people shy away from friendships with law enforcement officers.

They are children. Let them be that, what you ask surely would make them grow or mature to fast. They may not be ready for it. Their in school for an education. If they are getting that then grades will tell then I doubt that they know the answers to what you are asking. Best you let them be children teach them the best you can. Not only about the drugs but every thing you can pass on with your years of wisdom. Don't harp on the one subject. We all get tried of listening to a favorite song if played over and over again. Find something that you can share with them that peaks their interest. In that mutual sharing of that topic you my find they will confide in you. But don't push for answers!!! If you push you will be pushing them away. Just take in what they are willing to let you know. Let the discussion go where it may. You may find you have nothing to worry about and they are smarter and more aware then you thought.

I know the whole drill. A kid will get a drug outside of school grounds. That kid will take it unto school grounds, give some to a classmate. The kid then gets more from the supplier, but now has to pay for it. The habit gets costly, so he buys and now sells to others on the school grounds in order to support his own habit. It's like a cancer that spreads. Kids think they are invincible; that nothing can defeat them. They try a drug, thinking they can quit anytime they want, but it doesn't always turn out how they thought. I understand the dangers of ratting on the cartel, but they are not the ones on school grounds. They would be ratting out on schoolmates. I understand why they won't. I don't know what the answer is, but I fear for my kids and for the future children. Maybe legalization of drugs is the answer. We may have a few more druggees around, but taking the cartel out of the picture would be a great BIG plus.

Now you're talking my language. Legalization and taxation, no one under 21 allowed. There won't be any more druggies than there are now, drugs are available 24-7-365. The drug war is pure folly and will never be won. Ending prohibition didn't automatically create a nation of alcoholics as was feared, but enacting prohibition did create a new and dangerous type of criminal. The moonshiners and booze runners were every bit as dangerous as todays drug dealers. I'm not talking necessarily of legalizing all drugs, the taxes collected from the legalization of relatively harmless recreational drugs could be put to use wiping out the scourge of meth amphetamine, which is destroying lives and communities around the world, and has no place in society.

Concur completely, meth is literally poison.

I have rental properties that I rent cheap only to Grandmothers who are having to raise their grandchildren because the kid's parents ruined their own lives with meth.

It's sad, and they are everywhere. And, just to repeat my point, these people are dangerous if they feel threatened or cornered, whether the threat is real or imagined.

Quote:"The moonshiners and booze runners were every bit as dangerous as todays drug dealers."

I don't think this is true. The M&B runners, didn't try to force people to drink. Drug dealers work differently. They have to create a market for drugs by introducing kids to drugs to get them hooked.

While rethinking my post, how can drugs be legalized? The government would replace the dealers, but where would the government get the drugs from? They would have to deal with the drug cartels for their supply. I don't know how it would work.

I wasn't necessarily referring to the product itself, and how it's distributed, just the fact that they had guns, etc. and weren't afraid to use them. They wouldn't really be able to legalize all drugs. I do think marijuana should be legalized, and sold just like alcohol. This is almost the case in California, and the only people upset about it are the illegal growers, their profit margin has been wiped out. I don't think the Gov't should be distributing it though, just tax it like tobacco products, alcohol, etc. As for other drugs, I think that possession should be decriminalized, this is already happening also, although not through legislation. The states simply don't have the jail cells or the money to continue putting people in jail for drug possession, and keep up with the murderers, rapists and other scumbag violent criminals. This is not a new problem. For as long as there have been people, there have been people looking for ways to alter their consciousness. There are some particularly nasty drugs out there now though, (like meth, crack cocaine, etc.), these should be eradicated if possible. They are extremely damaging, and will never be considered recreational drugs. Anyone, caught putting drugs in the hands of kids, should always go to prison.

I'm not familiar with methamphetamine, but I was quite familiar with amphetamine itself (got it from MD's on prescription, made it myself after hours when I was working in a chem. lab.) It's not addictive, but (in small, medicinal-size doses) it does make the body and the mind feel better so one could easily become habituated to it and not want to do without it; I felt the same way when I first became legally able to drink alcohol; quit when I realised that I could easily become habituated to it.

Scotty from Hollyweird