Walking on Eggs

The term "Troll" was first brought to my attention when I was using the electronics google groups (now THAT is a Wild west style news group where you are either the hunter or the prey). I personally define a troll as a person whose primary intention is to ask stupid questions designed to get a clear response from as many people as possible. Any actual helpful advice and knowledge will be ignored (The current record I have come across in google groups is last years post "Jihad needs scientists" which maxed out its 10,000 post limit using only 93 post authors).

I have distinct separate categories for what you call "Trolling to hone some basic science" that I find most new posters fall into. They (descriptively) are......

(1) THE NEWBIE

"I have no real idea what I am doing so I will ask basic or even stupid questions in the hope of getting a better understanding of a complex subject or an idea I am working on". - These people need some direction in the form of, well suggesting they up their knowledge of the subject before going any further.

(2) THE INEXPERIENCED

"I have a basic idea of what I am talking about and have an idea which I want to develop and need help." - Generally the idea has either a) been done to death since the dawn of time, b) a complete waste of time because it would never be used in the real world, or c) impossible due to those pesky laws of physics (or a combination of the 3). On the odd occasion the idea is a good one, and help should be provided in the form of encouragement, pointers and further knowledge. For the other cases, I try and offer advice on why it will not work and offer the same suggestions I would to a Newbie. Generally starting a flame war with the person over their ignorance will neither help him/her or help your blood pressure, remember most of these people are trying to make the world a better place in their own way. Example subjects include new patented ideas, free energy generators, etc.

(3) THE LOST

"I have no real idea what I am talking about (but I have looked at a few websites), are likely still in high school with perhaps a semester of knowledge in the relevant subject(s) and will argue to death my idea against multiple experienced engineers because I know I am right" - Generally facts, knowledge and even logic will not help these people as many of them are impervious to it. Free energy is commonly the idea behind the argument. I find facts, keeping concepts simple and most importantly keeping a level head help when trying to deal with this or any other group.

(4) THE SCAM (or generally anything including the words free energy or pollution free)

"I have a PhD and am working on this free energy generator that I have proven works. I need some help with a few things on the new model before I mass produce it." - BEWARE, if it looks to good to be true that is because it is. This is a scam plain and simple. Anyone can pretend to be anything on the web, and anyone now days can make a professional looking webpage. I had one of these recently, it did not end well (in the end the person was talking about aliens who gave him the technology, spirit elements and even nuclear power causing natural disasters). Avoid like a case of crotch rot.

As for your comment regarding a troll as being generally an ignorant but inquisitive individual I would agree with you (as long as they are open to listening to facts, reason and new ideas).

My final comment would be this - I find facts, keeping concepts simple and most importantly keeping a level head help when trying to deal with any poster. Generally everybody wins this way. And this is a great site.

Hi,

The term trolling, when used as you describe, is borrowed from the fishermen of the world.

Trolling is a fishing technique which uses an attractive bait but is not necessarily directed at a particular fish, it is a hit and miss method which snags hooks or catches the prey indiscriminently.

Thus when used for aquiring information it is pretty much the same.

It is also a term used by gentlemen going to night clubs who are "Trolling" for a date with a nice young woman. Much the same as fishermen trying to catch a fish.

It is not the same as the little ogre who sits under the bridge in childrens stories an horrifies them.

Jack of all trades,

Great post!

We all have our own styles, and as someone said here in this venue, tone and inflection are missing and we only have the bare written word to guide us. I respond to my perceived meaning of the technical thrust of a poster's words. There is a huge difference between an innocent mistake, and intellectual sloth or someone saying something "authoritatively" when they are flat out wrong or have no knowledge of the topic. A poster on a technical forum has a responsibility to make some effort to phrase a question properly or answer one knowledgeably. If they want to consistently guess then they add little or nothing to the technical level of CR4. We all have an interest in helping to raise the level of discourse technically, because we will all benefit.

If someone disagrees with me, I expect them to say so in no uncertain terms, and I treat others the same way. Our time is valuable, and while its nice to say that all posts are welcome here I am not inclined to agree in the sense that "technical nonsense" posts only lower the level here and dilute the learning experience. I learn much from other posters, and also from researching for some of my own posts. We all want to learn, or we wouldn't be here.

Long live CR4!

Regards, Greg

Greg Dear,

...make some effort to phrase a question properly or answer one knowledgeably...

Right, but would you then dismiss rare gems such as:

http://cr4.globalspec.com/thread/3605 ?

Or: #3

Which are gone far beyond their intended headline, into the realm of anthropology...

I love good straight talking types. Or in your case a well educated person who expresses his plain typing in a good and concise manor well done there sir.

Here Here well posted I say old fellow.

Yuval, I am impressed in that fact that you are still thinking about that term. I know the thread your refering to and in that particular case we both know that the "Guest" was simply trying to start a fight, not to the same exent as the "Guest" that commented about your question about music not too long ago but still along that line.

One of many things I have learned in this modern age is that text does not convey tone. Over the years starting with the telephone and progressing though cel phones and internet communications we have increased our abilities to communicate with more people and at greater speeds. The problem is that much of our communication is impersonal. This impersonal form of communication has more than a few pitfalls with the first and worst one being the lack of tone. In absence of tone we naturally put our own tone into what we read. If I'm having a bad day then I will most likely place a negative tone into what I read. It's not right and I try not to do it but it still happens and I believe it happens to almost everyone.

The next pitfall is people's identities are hidden. Some people like the "Guest that show up in the forums from time to time can attack or inflame without fear of reprecusions. I see this on a very regular basis on a web site for a gaming community that I do some IT work for. We saw a decrease in the "hit and run" posts in the forums once we started requiring registration to post followed by having the registrant reply to an activation email.

Now the concept of "trolling". I like your definition as it is applied here. We all do it in some form or another.

Yuval I like your insightfullness and look forward reading more from you.

Richard L-excellent post! Agree with everything you stated. I am suprised by the number of "guest" on CR4 . Take any given day, and the "guests" outnumber the registered users 3 to 1. Now I understand some people will only post once in their lifetime and move on to something else. This is an excellent forum put forth by CR4, and personally believe the requirements to post remarks should be more stringent. Thanks-James

..."guests" outnumber the registered users 3 to 1...

To indicate the apparent impact of the site. Maybe thanks to Globalspec, I don't really know, I actually found the site (for the first time) through Googling for some Communications related issue, and found CR4 ref in one of the top URLs presented for the search.

Hi James,

When we put the site together, we made a conscious decision to allow "Guests" to post. We wanted to provide as many options for inclusivity as we could. Some people just aren't joiners, others want to test something out before they do join. The Guest option allows for both of these options. We acknowledge that some guests will take liberties with their anonymity, but we do handle the most egregious guests when situations arise (we do the same with registered users as well).

Just remember, every post on the site does have a Report button. If you think a post is abusive, off-topic or in some way beyond the pale, click it and let us know. We'll take care of it.

Thanks,
- Chris

Chris:

I want you to know that I just love the new CR4. It passes knowlege in both directions. I can pass knowlege on to people who need it, and it exercises my brain on subjects which I would otherwise not even think about. And I must concede that once or twice, I have had my own questions answered.

Also I note that we all have ratings. I believe I am currently a "Power User" or something like that. Is there any definition of what constitutes a Power User? or Guru? or what ever?

Anyhow, Much thanks for an enjoyable CR4.

Bill

Hi Bill,

Glad to hear you are enjoying CR4. This site has been a labor of love for nearly two years, so I appreciate any and all positive feedback from those who help to make it a great place.

Member titles are simply based on your number of posts. They don't speak to a users knowledge or expertise; only their activity level on CR4. You can read about the specifics here in the CR4 FAQ.

Thanks again for the kind words,
- Chris

Chris , as others have said , this is one of the most informative and best run site on the web . Even better there is a huge amount of positive feedback .People have the opportunity to give as well as take. Massive hand clap to you all.

The member titles are fun though I suspect may mislead the casual visitor . By looking at members stats (postings / membership date etc) an alternative could be figured ranging from 'watchful' through to 'motor -mouth' . I guess you people have your work cut out , so it's just a fun idea that I amuse myself with. I'm still trying to think of translations that are fun but not open to negative interpretation.

Regards , Kris (blabber-mouth !)

...may mislead the casual visitor...

You may thread to discuss a more appropriate method of name calling, Sorry, title tagging, Sorry, Label sticking, Sorry...

Blabber mouth relax, you're beautiful, keep up being you

Hi Kris,

Thanks for the kind words. I agree that the member rank system is somewhat inadequate if you are looking to determine the level of expertise and potentially value of a post based on its poster. We are working on a number of apps and tools separate from the member rank, which will help to achieve this balance. First, we have our User Groups, where members can select their areas of knowledge and state their experience and qualifications. If the thread deals about piping issues and you see someone posting who wears the Piping Engineer badge, there's a fairly good chance that that user has a higher level of experience and knowledge within that topic.

We also have a "Skunk Works" project (I hope the rest of the admin team doesn't get mad at me for talking about this) which will give the community tools to state whether a response to a post is a good one or is bad, fluff, off-topic, etc. I can't talk much about the specifics of this tool because we are simply talking about developing it, and haven't moved forward yet. There are only so many hours in the day.

Again, thank you for the kind words and thank you for participating in CR4, and most of all thank you for your honest assessment of the site. This type of feedback is what helps us to prioritize new functionalities to make CR4 a better and more enjoyable place for all the members and guests.

You never know where you'll end up while surfing for answers. I read the Wikipedia definition of "Troll" and followed a link to Goatse. I don't think I'll ever quite be the same again. After seeing that I completely forgot what I was going to say.

This site has been my daily news paper for about a year now. Please keep up the good work.

Here are a few definitions of "troll" from the Urban Dictionary - a kind of wikipedia for the same pop culture that borrowed the word "troll" to mean an annoying or disruptive online poster. Other definitions are shown as well.

Caution: some adult language/situations follow.

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1. troll 1210 up, 86 down

One who posts a deliberately provocative message to a newsgroup or message board with the intention of causing maximum disruption and argument

by Alien Entity Sep 22, 2002 email it permalink:
del.icio.us

troll images
People purposely spamming up GaiaOnline 2. troll 444 up, 76 down

One who purposely and deliberately (that purpose usually being self-amusement) starts an argument in a manner which attacks others on a forum without in any way listening to the arguments proposed by his or her peers. He will spark of such an argument via the use of ad hominem attacks (i.e. 'you're nothing but a fanboy' is a popular phrase) with no substance or relevence to back them up as well as straw man arguments, which he uses to simply avoid addressing the essence of the issue.

Volourn

by Exitium Oct 10, 2003 email it 3. troll 350 up, 65 down

1. A large, brutish creature of European myth, often lacking in intelligence. Sometimes compared to the Japanese oni.
2. A dumbass who makes idiotic posts in message boards newsgroups for the sole purpose of pissing people off, often lacking in intelligence. Sometimes compared to people who pass you by on the sidewalk then grab you in inappropriate places.

1. "AAAAAAHH, it's a troll!"
"Protect the women and children! Grab your torches!"
2. "AAAAAAHH, it's a troll!"
"****head... we banned him five times and he keeps making new accounts about how he pwns all and that he>>>>>> ;>>>>>> >>>>>>& gt;j00!"

by Syckls Aug 15, 2004 email it 4. troll 305 up, 30 down

1a. Noun
One who posts a deliberately provocative message to a newsgroup or message board with the intention of causing maximum disruption and argument.

1b. Noun
A person who, on a message forum of some type, attacks and flames other members of the forum for any of a number of reasons such as rank, previous disagreements, sex, status, ect.
A troll usually flames threads without staying on topic, unlike a "Flamer" who flames a thread because he/she disagrees with the content of the thread.

1c. Noun
A member of an internet forum who continually harangues and harasses others. Someone with nothing worthwhile to add to a certain conversation, but rather continually threadjacks or changes the subject, as well as thinks every member of the forum is talking about them and only them. Trolls often go by multiple names to circumvent getting banned.


2a. Noun
Sometimes compared to the Japanese 'Oni', a troll is a supernatural creature of Scandinavian folklore, whose race was thought to have carried massive stones into the countryside (although actually the result of glaciers). Lives in hills, mountains, caves, or under bridges. They are stupid, large, brutish, hairy, long-nosed, and bug-eyed, and may also have multiple heads or horns. Trolls love to eat people, especially small children.
The Females of the species are generally kinder and more intelligent, but still fairly hideous.

2b. Noun
An aesthetically repulsive person, often has terrible social skills, usually a woman. See Troglodyte.

2c. Noun
An old, unattractive gay man who hits on young men, and cannot seem to understand that they want nothing to do with him.

3a. Verb
To fish by dragging bait behind a moving motor-boat.

3b. Verb
To cruise for immediate sexual pleasure without commitment. Often characterized by an older man, seeking a younger man, or any man for immediate, often anonymous sexual contact.

4. Noun
A joke disguised as an outrageously stupid statement or question, intended to trap people into believing it is serious.

5. Verb
To use acid and ectasy simulataneously. See trolling.
(Comes from 'Tripping' on acid, and 'Rolling' on ecstasy)

6. Noun
A toy popular in the 1980's, a 'troll' is a cute little plastic trolls with fluffy, colored hair.

1a. I hate trolls!
1b. I hate trolls!
1c. I hate trolls!
2a. It is said that a troll will turn to stone if caught by sunlight/daylight.
2b. Ewww… Jenna is such a troll!
2c. That troll kept hitting on Rick.
3a. I then got to troll for salmon. I caught one that was 65 inches long!
3b. He went trolling and picked up a 17-year-old boy recently at a gay club.
4. Hey, how's my computer able to speak in foreign languages?
5. Back in the 90's we used to troll at the raves.
6. I bought a 4-inch troll for my little sister on her birthday.

by etox, et al. Nowhere May 7, 2005 email it 5. Troll 83 up, 50 down

Any one that lives below the Bridge.

Opposite of a Yooper.

by DASK Nov 15, 2004 email it 6. Troll 62 up, 33 down

1. a stupid person, a dullard

2. a supernatural creature from scandinavian foklore, that livs in on hills in caves or under bridges usually appearing as a friendly or dangerous dwarf or giant.

3. an internet user who sends inflamatory messages with the intention of deliberately starting a flame war.

Sonyroolz was a troll

by Light Joker Aug 21, 2004 email it 7. troll 53 up, 31 down

Rhymes with 'stroll', it refers to a style of fishing where a baited line is drawn in front of fish hoping that one will bite. The person doing is a troller.

The analogy to a baited message hoping for bites is obvious.

I caught a fine Big Mouth Bass with a troll.

by Richard Nov 14, 2003 email it

-------------------

Richard L.: Ironically, Guest's post to which you refer in that other thread is an example of something a troll (pop-culture definition) would post. There were a couple of "Prove IT !!!" posts that fall into this category as well. Trolls often post messages that are akin to someone throwing a grenade over a wall while remaining safely - and anonymously - behind it. Sometimes these folks are called Keyboard Kommandos, but this usage is now archaic (which is why I like it!). Brevity roolz!

-e

Man, you just served to my initial description of a child trolling their parent: I posted a tease, and you, being you, came up definitive (as usual).

Now, me being a troll right here, you've got to admit: given the right situation, anyone might be.

...a couple of "Prove IT !!!"...

That's nothing,

I even managed to get a beautiful "So What!!!" once.

Now, that's something to write home about.

Hi Yuval,

I too have been thinking I am walking on eggs recently. We all are of different ages, different religions, grew up in different circumstances, etc. This makes it hard to communicate. By people's reactions we can tell how they perceived our last post. I was assumed to be angry when I wasn't not long ago. On some posts I don't understand what the other is trying to say, so I don't respond. They probably think they are being ignored. I got the "So what" recently. Two worse ones were used recently in forums that I was in: "you've got to be kidding". This is very discouraging and counter-productive.

I can dish out and take the "smart remark" from time to time. It seems to make the forum fun, but we (including myself) need to be sensitive to others feelings and think about how it will be received.

...We all are of different ages, different religions, grew up in different circumstances, etc...

I couldn't agree with you more, on the need for the required sensitivity.

But see, my religion is being human, not a Jew. My faith is love, not ethics. My practice is knowledge, not ritual.

The different circumstances we all come from should not be a distinction, but an opportunity for exchange, and age, you know, is in your heart, not your hair...

This site being a model of a micro-cosmos, is an opportunity to showcase co-existence and co-operation, instead of a rat-race.

Of the latter, we all had enough

The problem with the Rat Race is that, even if you win, you're still a rat!

-e

StandardsGuy writes: "Two worse ones were used recently in forums that I was in: "you've got to be kidding". This is very discouraging and counter-productive."

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Hi SG,

For my part I try not to put too much weight on such responses. If you post what you believe to be true and put a good effort into crafting a clear and succinct post, and then someone comes along and tries to dismiss it with a snooty wave of the hand, it's not your problem; it's theirs. It really is! They might not agree with you, but at least you did your best to present your case. The occasional "you've got to be kidding" or, worse, a "Who cares!" post is eminently ignorable. If that's the best retort they can offer, you're hardly in any danger of being toppled out of your chair. If their simply gainsaying your post is the best they can offer, then really, what's to be discouraged about? Treat it for what it is: a bug on your windshield.

"Some people take a board, find its thinnest part, and drill a great many holes where the drilling is easiest." - Uncle Albert

-e

I am very bad about this and lately have offended folks when doing so was the farthest thing from my mind.

I think perhaps I need a vacation. Lord knows I could use one. Sit on the beach and listen to the surf. Not post anything for awhile. The last thing I want here is for folks to wonder if they're walking on eggs. This is a great forum; dynamic, alive, and full of smart people with tons of skills. (The forum's online implementation - the software - is the best I've seen as well. It has its problems, sure. But visiting other forums is very frustrating because I've been so spoiled by this one.)

See y'all later.
-e

-e: Given that I do not keep up with the latest trends in pop-culture and use of slang any definition is acceptable though Yuvals definition is still a good one. It still remains thought that the posters intent was to attack/insult no matter the definition used, this is my "perception".

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I think many will agree that the individual is responsible for what they post, it's content and language. The difficult part for some like myself is the ability to convey tone. As I have told many people over the years, I have a short and blunt writing style. Part of the is the result of the type of people that I have dealt with over the years, Now that I have had changes in my life (working in Controls engineering instead of the streets) and am spending more time communicating with people that have an education. I see a need to change my "style" of communication to avoid offending others but it won't happen overnight and I will probably still piss off some people.

As a reader we have control over how we interpret what someone else has written. I am as guilty as anyone for reading more than there is into a post, email or report as anyone but the fact remains, if the reader gets mad and upset its their problem.

If someone talks in absolutes I may ask them to "prove it" and would expect the same in return. While this is a great forum and I have learned a few things since finding it, I have no way of knowing who is writing and what their credentials are. For all I know a seemingly knowledgeable person can be plagiarizing from their text books or cutting and pasting from Wiki. Granted this person will be found out in time but lets face a fact (well one for me at least) we don't have the time to spend meeting every person an interviewing them to find out if they are legitimate or not, so I will question must everything written in forums.

The owners of this forum stated (I'm rephrasing a little) that they made a conscious choice to leave the use of the forums open to the general public without restriction. This means that we will meet people that we like and do not like, we will meet people that are honest and we will meet those that are not, not matter how hard we try to protect our (I like using this term) online community the afore mentioned will remain a simple fact of public forum life.

In the end I see this forum as a great tool and am willing to put up with a level of BS that goes along with a pubic forum. Even threads such as this one while not related engineering, it is still a chance to learn about others and just maybe a little about ourselves.

Hello from gloomy England, I notice that many of you post from the USA.

Here we are a naturally reticent bunch who tend to be blunt and forthright. I always tend to write telegrams. Words cost money. When I know of a published source or greater authority than my self I will use it when needed but I always acknowledge this fact by quoting my source so any reader can go back and check me reference. Were I can I quote the ISBN details and authors name etc.

I try not to give any misleading info and do not set out to annoy any one.

I let others know is they are in the wrong but I do not blast them with any abuse.

I want people to be as fair to me when one day I need their help.

Honesty and good manners cost nothing but do go along way to helping me want to help others. I hate lier's cheats and politicians especially. PS to Chris L. can you up date your spell checker to include my inadequate ability to spell it often just gets stuck when I get stuck I have to go to manual means all too often. Your forum is other wise very good. PPs got any spare brains for sale. Any one.

Good manners require more words; words not worth the additional cost?

I thought Trolling was what we do to catch fish eg. Mackerel and Tuna or otherwise slowly dragging for information. Has it now been turned into some sort of insult?

It should really be Trawling as in when you use a net towed behind a trawler. Stern trawl or side trawl. Trawling for information is another term in common usage.

A Troll is a mythical creature a Scandinavian origin not something you want as a best mate.

Finally, a definitive summation to this thread, or is it?

Two people will never exactly agree on the meaning of a word.

Live and let live.

'Discrimination' has a good and a bad meaning .

Jargon is designed to exclude.

We are all lesser mortals in someones viewpoint.

Scroll-lock works for me.

Peace out Yuval , interesting thread.