House Insulation Issues

Crown molding has made a comeback in recent years. The corners could be lined with foam (either dry foam nailed in place, or spray-foamed), then covered with the crown molding.

Food for thought. thanks.

I have been thinking about this, and I believe Del and Usbport have a pretty good idea. As mentioned, insulate the dead space created for more effect.

GA for you both.

My wife. Thanks for the suggestion.

I have never done what you are doing so please don't assume I know more than you.

As I look at the pictures it appears that the 2x4 studs are conducting the cold in (actually heat out) better than the other (probably insulated?) space between them. That is no surprise. No matter how good the insulation is you expect to see the 2x4 studs colder. In fact, if the 2x4s don't "cast a shadow" then, in my uninformed opinion, you would either have poor thermal camera equipment or a very, very poor insulation job.

Thus, my question is "Do you really have a problem"? I have never done this but the pictures show what I would expect the pictures to show. Do you have the experience to know that there is a problem? Do you have enough faith in the contractor that took the pictures to know that there is a problem? I'm not attacking anyone, I'm just saying that seeing what you posted looks like what I expected to see. What is needed is someone to know if the temperature changes are "good" or "bad".

You may not want to rush to fix it unless you know for sure that it is broken.

You may want to add to your posting the outdoor temperature when the pictures were taken.

Bruce

Bruce,

The outside temp was 10 degrees F.

The pictures were taken by our local gas company, not a contractor.

I didn't post all of the pictures. This one has a corner temp of 43 degrees.

The stud wall is a 2 x 6 not a 2 x 4.

I agree that you would expect to see some difference. I think this difference is too great.

Thanks for your input.

I agree that usbport and Del have a good suggestion how to mitigate this heating problem. Allow me to propose a cause of your heat loss.

I believe that these cold corners are where your roof is closest to the ceiling of the living space. In these tight crevasses it can be very difficult to slide in batting insulation or to blow in loose insulation from the attic. Another possibility here is that you may not have sufficient attic ventilation to prevent condensation build up in these spaces.

Some of the corners are on the vertical side of the roof. Easy to get to.

I really don't want to tear off any siding or remove any sheet rock. I am thinking that expanding foam is the "cat's meow"

I have done some research by googling retrofoam.

At least half of the corners have another floor above them. The roof issue only plays a small part in this problem.

thanks for your feedback.

Whilst I realise that you don't want to remove siding or sheet rock..IF there is little/no insulation between the inner and outer walls - [and you may know that due the replaced siding] think about 'blowing' in some dry foam / Not cellulose. This would be done at a high point cut into the dry wall - which can relatively easily be repaired. Of course each stud has to be accommodated along with noggins between them, electrical conduit etc. ! Yes a pain, but when completed - equivalent to a 'solid' wall but easier done when building or by removing siding/dry wall (a summer job).

Phil,

Welcome to CR4.

I am leaning towards having expanding foam squirted in the stud walls. The video the company showed us has a pump and a hose that is inserted up or down the stud wall.

Windows and doors means that more insertion points are needed.

They will remove the steel siding, cut a hole in the board. They then insert the hose, start the pump and slowly retract the hose.

Their literature says about a 30% greater insulation value than fiberglass rolls.

There is insulation in the walls. I think that it has settled in some areas. Perhaps it wasn't stapled in place. Or if it got wet it could also settle.

This is off topic, but you've got some good suggestions.

I just wanted to mention, since everyone's already here, that, one of those cameras looks like a great way to find studs, but even more importantly, I think it could be used to trace out hidden hot and cold water lines. Seems like it might work, just thought I'd throw it out there.

Radiant and convected heat energy radiating towards the cold wall and ceiling surfaces. Some areas are absorbing the heat faster than others.

Rather than tear into the walls, have you given any thought to a radiant barrier coating on the sheetrock to abate and even to stop the heat loss?

www.ct-texas.com

www.monolitexp.com

No I haven't. I will check out the links you provided when I get some time.

Thanks.

Interesting websites.

I tried finding info for dealers in Minnesota and couldn't locate any.

Some of the heat loss in those areas is probably radiant (and some heat from the room is convected to that area to be lost), but I would guess that the majority of the heat loss is conducted, and a radiant barrier won't do much about that.

rhkramer,

I think you're right. Any paint coating won't solve any problems of water pipes freezing.

Refer to our website and see what our coating does as a conductive heat barrier on different things. We have statements from companies and hospital engineers where a 'coat of our paint' has;

Retained heat on steam pipes, boilers, exhaust flues, incinerators, etc. I am talking about drops of 35% to 75% of normal heat loss. Surface skin surface temp drops of 600F down to 370F, 267F down to 155F, 400F down to 100F, results like that.

According to the feds websites, that is not possible. According to the lab people, same reply.

If the pipes are inside walls that lead to the outside; coat the interior sheetrock, the heat energy escaping through the walls now that is helping to heat the pipes, that amount will drop significantly.

Coating the exterior walls, most of the heat energy coming through the walls and escaping to the outside, will be retained , the wall will be warmer, the building will be warmer and so will those pipes inside the wall.

One hitch to using our coating on the outside of anything in cold weather; It is water based and will freeze. It cannot be applied if the temperature will get below 40 degrees. Anytime someone is considering applying our paint to the interior of a structure we notify them that doing that can cause any water pipes to freeze.

Couple questions: Do you happen to have an overhang outside this wall? In 1988 we also built a house, 2 story, the 2nd floor over hung the first floor 18". This area was very cold for the first winter. There was 0 insulation in this overhang and in fact it was completely open. We sealed it and insulated it eliminating the problem. 2nd, do you have any insulation between the floors on those corners of the outside walls that you are showing in the films? This is an area where you could possibly stop some infiltration if you had 12-15" of insulation in that space. I am a firm believer of spray foam, soy based is best if you have large areas to do. If you have small areas, you can get smaller cans, they are 2 part systems and work very well sealing places where no other can get in there.

Another thought is on your heating system, do you have hot air, hot water, radiant floor? If you have hot air and have perimeter venting, this maybe where the duct work is. Just an after thought.

1 more after thought, when you replace the Aluminum siding, did you use fiberglass bats inside the 2X6 cavities after the storm, is it possible the fiberglass has settled some? Is the vapor barrier on the inside or the outside of the exterior sheeting (Tyvek or other)? Also if you used batting, was it backed and is the backing facing the inside wall?

No more questions for now.

Jim,

1. no overhang.

2. no insulation in the floor between the main floor and the upstairs. One of my solutions for fixing the area where I had frozen pipes was to add insulation. Just have to sell the wife on that idea.

3. hot air system. vertical runs are in the interior of the house. Horizontal runs to bring the heat or cold air from the interior to the outside walls.

4. fiberglass rolls were not replaced when the siding was replaced. (I am thinking that some of that insulation may have settled.)

5. vapor barrier is on the inside wall (I think) the code has changed here so the vapor barrier is on the outside.

Thanks for all of the questions.

I suggest that you remove the gyp board and re-insulate the defective areas with new insulation of your choosing. Just make sure that if you buy fiberglass batte insulation that you do not purchase it with foil or craft paper surfaces (see below for reason why).

Additionally, I suggest that you install a new Radiant Barrier Foil with double-sided perforated foil atop the new insulation at the inside face of the wall and ceiling. The perforations are needed for vapor transmission. With the double-sided foil you don't need a paper or foil surface manufactured on your fiberglass insulation as that would cause more problems such as vapor capture/entrapment. You can buy rolls of the foil from several manufacturer's online for considerable cost savings over what you'd pay for the stuff at Lowe's or Home Depot. Just Google search for it. I purchase my rolls from ARMAFOIL and had great success with the product.

I would also paint the new gyp. board walls and ceiling with a ceramic insulation paint additive such as manufactured by HYTECH SALES. This is a powder mixed into your paint. Very high tech stuff to lower heat transmissivity....NASA and the US Military uses this stuff religiously. You can buy the product online directly from the manufacturer. Cost isn't too bad either. (only coat the outside walls and the ceiling directly under a non-heated space).

I have applied both products inside my home and have noticed at least a 35% reduction in my home heating oil usage in the past 3 years. House is less drafty and comfy too!

Don't forget that you can claim US Fed. & state Energy Tax Credits by installing these products in your home + you'll save a tremendous amount of heating fuel or lower your electric bill, depending on your type of heating system!

Good luck and make sure to get back to us to let us know how you made out, okay?

"This is a powder mixed into your paint. Very high tech stuff to lower heat transmissivity"

The product you refer to are ceramic spheres. Before you mix them into any bucket of paint, you might want to check with the paint's manufacturer and see if it voids the warranty on the paint. I have been told that by many factory reps from paint companies.

Adding that powder to paint does not make the end product a 'ceramic coating'.

It has worked for me, and the Benjamin Moore latex interior paint has not failed after 3 years since application of two coatings.

FLIR readings indicate a 35 degree (F) heat loss differential reduction "before" and "after" [68 deg. F interior and 20 deg. F exterior temps].

I'm a believer, and it only cost me around $170 USD for the ceramic additive to do the entire interior on my house.

Capt Moosie,

Good suggestions. I wasn't looking to spend so much time or money. That is probably the way the house should have been done in the 1st place.

thanks.

I had a cold room in my house and it was also the hottest in the summer, just poor insulation. I solved it by installing aluminum faced foam insulation panels that were 3/4" thick on all the walls. This was covered with 1/4" wood tone paneling for an attractive finish. The floor molding was replaced and the electrical outlets were spaced out to finish the job. That room became greatly more efficient at staying near the thermometer set point as there were no "gaps " in the insulation now and there was an additional R6 barrier over all the walls. The room was smaller by about 1" on each wall but the comfort made up for it many times over.

There was no real hard work involved and no tearing out of the drywall to deal with.

Emjoy, Woody

Waldig,

hmmmmm! A slightly smaller room, no need to deal with replacing the wall paper. The main question being if I can sell the wife on this idea.

thanks for the suggestion.

Waldig,

How did you reframe your windows and doors so everything looks good?

I would have 10 doorways and 19 windows to reframe. My walls are 2 x 6 construction so I would have to make or buy special width frames.

DDK, That is way too big a job for re-insulating the small area cold spots on your pics. If you have access to the area in the corner along your ceiling just add some insulation. If you do not have easy access. Easiest thing to do is cut the sheet rock ceiling across the length of the ceiling to the wall edge about 12 - 16", remove the sheet rock ceiling, add insulation,

replace sheetrock, mud, sand, mud, sand and re-paint. This may also solve your frozen pipe issues. You may have to cut out a 1 foot section along the wall to stuff some insulation on the top of the wall cavities. Then replace with new sheetrock. One thing on paint colors.

When you paint a room, if there is a light switch for this room, place an extra copy of the paint you used in the light switch cover. This way you will always have as close a match as possible to the paint that was used and you will always know what paint type and color that was used.

Just remember , that if you don't foam the areas that are letting in the cold air , the foam might fix one area but divert the cold to another area of the ceiling. By the looks of the photo's 1 & 2 I dont think you will fix those areas away from the walls with foam. I was going to suggest boxing the outer corners, lets say 16x6 and insulate them (which could also be used for recessed lighting) but it might also drive the cold to other areas. In any case what ever you do you will have to rechecked with the Thermal camera to see if what you did even worked.

Rescue,

thanks for the warning. An easy thing to overlook.

I am planning of having a company come in and do thermal imaging after the repairs are made.

Is that a return air grille in the first picture?

It appears to be an RAG, if so is it leaking drawing outside air through the eve or roof vents causing the cold spots to appear on camera and heat loss to be caused by the same cold infiltration.

Start the heater and smoke the vents. If the smoke pulls in you have duct leakage causing cold spots.

Seal the duct or install vent caps for the winter months.

Stedou,

An exhaust fan in the bathroom. These are routed to the roof. Some are vertial and some have some horizontal runs before they're vertical.

I will have to think on your comment about the leaking and the cold sports.

thanks for the info.

And don't forget to add foam insulation to the cover plates of electrical outlets and light switches. You can purchase these insulation kits ("Socket Sealers") manufactured by Henkel Consumer Adhesives relatively cheaply in Ebay.

I have been using then for over 25 years. Thanks for spreading the info.

As warned by another: do you really have a problem?

If there are no drafts, the heat exchange may be very small.

Reminds me of the lesson my father-in-law and I learned while I was taking Thermo I. (Of course, he resented my having an answer - admittedly, however, I had to ask the Prof for that answer.

Go back to the equation Q = 60*V*ρ*Cp ΔT

Where Q = Heat transfer rate, BTU/Hr

V = Air flow rate, cfm

ρ = density of air lb/ft³

Cp = specific heat of air, BTU/lb° F

ΔT = air temperature change °T

If V, ρ, or Cp is small, Q will correspondingly be reduced.

With standard air the equation becomes, simply,

Q = 1.08VΔT.

And if V is small, Q will not be much.

Herb put in a noble effort building passageways into a masonry fireplace for air to be warmed. However, what we learned was that there was very little air exchange, and what there was didn't amount to much heat transmission!

As warned by another: do you really have a problem?

You probably didn't see the picture where I indicated that I got frozen water pipes about 10 to 12 feet from the wall.

Still waiting for an experienced user to make some comments.

You maybe able to use an insulating foam sprayed through a drilled hole to limit the heat loss from your living space. You will never know though if your heat loss is a symptom of a bigger problem (termites, rodent nest, ice dams from condensation) without removing sheet rock. Where you have pipes freezing you must remove drywall and do the job correctly.

Refred,

I definetly want to do fix the problem and not do a bandaid. Several interesting potential solutions.

Probably not a cheap final solution.

ddk

To save costs , is it possible for you to make a hole or two in the high heat loss areas and use a web-cam and laptop to look and possibly see what is going on up there. You would also need a small light up there too. At least this might help you decide what plan of action to take. I suggest playing around with distance and focus and view before you start making holes. Also where you put the holes might make them usable by the foam company if you go that route.

Also a thought for some of your problem areas with a roof above would be to wait for summer, remove an area of shingles and roof sheathing and repair from above. Might be a cheaper way fixing some of your problem along the outer edge if you can do that work yourself. Or maybe your roof needs reshingling anyway and that would be a great time to access these areas.

Rescue

Removing the shingles and sheathing of a roof sounds a lot more expensive to me than the removal of sheet rock. Now if the root problem is a leaking roof (plausible) and one will be removing these parts of the roof anyway for repair then fixing soaked insulation from above makes sense.

redfred

You might be right but consider this........DIY...no labour costs included .IE: house 40 ft long . If shingles are in good shape and not brittle you should be able to stripe 40 x 4.5 ft of shingles and reuse most of the shingles, but lets say you have to buy 3 bundles thats $ 75 and a roll of felt paper, $20,Nails most reusable $10 thats all you should need, $105 total. The only thing you need to becarful of is that it doesn't rain. That way you don't need to buy tarps. Tools required....Wonder Bar, Hammer, Cutter, Nail puller, Ladder Stapler. Completion time 2 people 1 day maybe 1 1/2 days. No Mess

Remove sheet rock to fix same area...Chances are 3 rooms maybe 4...wow what a mess, the pieces, the dust. You have to move everything away from the walls so every room is in shambles, cover everything to keep dust off. Chances of you getting sheet rock off in good piece's are slim , I will also assume you can get away with only damaging the ceiling and No walls. Some new sheet rock lets say $30 worth , tape, um, I'll assume about 100 ft. $15, Mud 2 pails $30, Sanding sheets and paper $ 5, Acoustic sealant to reseal the Vapor Barrier $20. New roll 6 mil Poly $15, New nails and screws some reusable $ 10. Primer 1 Gal. $25 Paint 2 Gal. $50 = $200 total . Tools required ...Hammer, Cutter, Sheet Rock Saw, Screw Driver, Drill and Bits Extension Cord, Square, Putty Knife, 6 & 10" trowels, Mud Tray, Trouble Light, 2 Ladders Completion Time 3 Days. I'll also assume that none of the ceilings are Stippled. Did I mention the mess and inconvenience

Ive done both jobs so this is not just a guess although some of the prices might be off but do you see my point that it might be not only easier but cheaper going from the top. Again this is DYI . If you had to hire someone to do everything on both ways, well I don't know how it would compare ,But I don't think that I am that far off on my DIY estimates.

Rescue

You did notice that ddk mentioned that this is a multistory house. I seriously doubt that one can get to the first floor ceiling from a second story roof.

Obviously you must of skipped over the part where ddk said there was a roof over some of the problem although a small part and then again skipped over where I said and I quote (Also a thought for some of your problem areas with a roof above would be to wait for summer, remove an area of shingles and roof sheathing and repair from above.) So please tell us which part didn't you understand so we can make it more comprehensible for you..... . You made a point that you think removing sheet rock was cheaper and I showed you an example that showed different. So this comment is to prove what? That you cant read or your tic off cause I proved you wrong.

Rescue,

I will probably climb into the attic.

I think the original insulation was rolled bates on fiberglass insulation. I added several inches of blown insulationwithin the 1st year or 2 of living in the house.

I have 2 areas that show the effects of wind blowing the loose insulation. I have to figure out something to deflect the wind or hold down the insulation.

I am going to get in touch with a company that squirts foam into walls, from the outside. I hope they can take infrared pictures before and after.

Hi ddk

Keeping inslation in place on outer walls.

Not sure what pitch your roof is but this is a typical 4/12 pitch way of installing a Cardboard Insulation stop which your house may not have and would need to be installed to stop wind from blowing away or peeling back the insulation from the out side walls. They also make them out of foam. In the Pix below Note 2 is the outer wall sheathing which in actuallity on most houses built in the past does not go that high but terminates half -way on the top plate leaving the insulation batt or other exposed to possible wind through a vented soffit if a insulation stop of some kind is not used. Also on most older houses with a 4/12 pitch the distance between the top plate and roof sheating was only about 4". Today most of the new homes use a rafter with a built up heel to allow more insulation at the outer walls making for a better R Value at that point of the ceiling and helping to get rid of cold spots.

If it is 4/12 pitch the area you need to get to, to fix the problem would be almost impossible to get to from inside the attic because of the slant of the roof. If you have aluminum soffits, it should be an inexpensive and relatively easy fix to do from the outside.

Not really knowing your house design, I can only guess at some of the ways you might be able to fix this particular problem. If Im way off on this suggestion I apologize.

Rescue

Rescue,

My pitch is steeper. (found out during a re-shingling years ago) One area where there is a problem has about a 4 foot overhang.

about 15 years ago I rented some scaffolding so I could screw the soffit to the joists since they've already blown off twice.

Once I get into the attic I will know more.

Our high today is about 10° F.

I'm not the OP, but can you point me to the original source of that sketch in your post #54? I'd like to read the notes.

Thanks!

rhkramer

Here is where I got the sketch from

http://www.renovation-headquarters.com/roof-ceiling-systems-27.htm

Rescue

I can really see a problem with installing this cardboard stop.

Here's the reason why:

In an unheated attic you need to have the space "breathe" and thus you need to allow the overall construction to remove the built-up water vapor via the soffitt vents. Also, in order to provide overall efficiency of vapor removal in that same attic space you need to have a continuous ridge vent. You need to provide UNRESTRICTED airflow between the ridge vent and the soffitt vents. The soffitt vents need to be al continuous as possible in order for this to work properly. No matter if there is a "vapor Barrier" installed on the warm face of the wall studs and ceiling joints, you'll still get some measure of vapor transmission from the warm house into the colder attic space. If you don't remove this water vapor you'll end up with rotted wood members as well as damp fiberglass batte insulation that'll be next to useless as far as thermal R is concerned...it'll end up very ineffective.

Both of these types of vents are also good to have to remove heat build-up during the summer, but also having an attic ventilation fan or fans mounted in the upper reached of the gable roof and house attic end walls is most desirable.

CaptMoosie

These Cardboard stops Installed properly will stop the insulation from being blown away or flipped up from the outer edge as well as allow air flow to the attic. They come in Waxed Cardboard and Styrofoam for 16 or 24 OC rafters and can be used for 2,4,6,or 8 /12 pitches. They come marked or semi creased so really you cant install them wrong. As far as I know, there are no other Insulation Stops commercially made for this application. I have seen on occasion builders make their own stop from plywood in rare circumstances. Every builder that I know of in this area uses these Cardboard Stops. I know the USA and Canada have some different building methods but I do go south to Arizona in the winter sometimes for a few months and have noticed some new home construction there uses these Stops also.

Rescue

I'm not a house builder, so I haven't seen these cardboard insulation stops up this way in the NE. Doesn't mean that they don't exist in the supply yards here. But then again, I haven't exactly been looking for them either!

Based on your statements Rescue, I can see these actually working, as long as there is an adequate air space preserved directly above them to help promote air circulation, not hinder it.

Have a great day! GA from me to you for a very good suggestion!

As far as air conditioning registers, I purchased 1/16" flexible magnet material, that is used for signs. I had those cut to fit all registers. For the returns, I purchased new filters, wrapped in plastic, and installed, still wrapped. Good Luck

OpMan,

Thanks for the insite. I believe that my vapor barrier is just next to the inside sheetrock, not the exterior.

I've been seeing Retrofoam ads for the last year and I am going to check them out.

Sorry for the confusion on house wrap. I should've said Tyvek or Typar instead.

Been busy for the last 2 days. I glanced through replies and will reply when I get more time.

There has been some usefull ideas.

Thanks to all of the responders.

Have you considered Google-ing Fine Homebuilding for some insight?

Hornetson,

No I haven't. Thanks for the suggestion.