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Help With Equation - Negative Value of x

01/13/2011 11:28 AM

Please help me with this maths quetion:

Find a negative value of x that satisfies the equation

[(x+1)2 - (2x+1)]0.5 + 2IxI - 6 =0

NB: 2IxI is actually 2 multipied by absolute value of x. I couldn't get the absolute sign so i improvised. Thank you.

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#1

Re: Help With Equation - Negative Value of x

01/13/2011 1:15 PM

Best to do your own homework. The rules of this site are clear about homework problems. I can only suggest you expand the equation. It easily simplifies to an obvious answer. Good luck.

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#14
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Re: Help With Equation - Negative Value of x

01/14/2011 6:30 AM

It's not my homework. I was just trying to help explain it to my little sis and to my dismay, i couldn't! Cos this very much looks like a simple question! But i had a breakthrough yesternight though...

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#2

Re: Help With Equation - Negative Value of x

01/13/2011 1:37 PM

Extra credit: find a second negative value of x that satisfies the equation.

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#4
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Re: Help With Equation - Negative Value of x

01/13/2011 1:47 PM

I'm pretty sure there are only two real number solutions, one is <0 and one is >0.

But I'm always willing to correct my mistakes

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#5
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Re: Help With Equation - Negative Value of x

01/13/2011 1:54 PM

???

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#8
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Re: Help With Equation - Negative Value of x

01/13/2011 4:17 PM

I'm pretty sure there are only two real number solutions, one (solution) is <0 (less than zero=negative=Peakay's answer) and one (remaining solution) is >0 (greater than zero=positive).

I'd be very interested in seeing a derivation of additional solutions

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#10
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Re: Help With Equation - Negative Value of x

01/13/2011 6:02 PM

Not a derivation, but how about 6, 2, -2 and -6 as four solutions? How did Tornado know they would turn out to be an arithmetic progression?

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#11
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Re: Help With Equation - Negative Value of x

01/13/2011 6:36 PM

I didn't know ahead of time, only noticing it after the fact; it's just blind luck, and a "hint" that allows confirmation of the solution without giving much away. They can be expressed succinctly as ±4±2.

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#6
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Re: Help With Equation - Negative Value of x

01/13/2011 2:18 PM

Further extra credit: find a second positive value of x to satisfy the equation.

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#3

Re: Help With Equation - Negative Value of x

01/13/2011 1:43 PM

Hint: since you want a negative x, 2|x| is equal to -2x. Both answers are nice round numbers.

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#7

Re: Help With Equation - Negative Value of x

01/13/2011 2:37 PM

Try to think: if x<0 there is always a number y>0 such that abs(x)=abs(y).

Thinking this way you find yourself only in the >0 domain and it becomes a lot easier to handle the equation.

To find the solution will be your problem. I only gave you the hint with the hope you will understand and use it the right way.

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#9

Re: Help With Equation - Negative Value of x

01/13/2011 4:37 PM

(-x)2 = x2; i.e., positive real numbers have 2 square roots.

All solutions to the original equation are in arithmetic progression.

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#12

Re: Help With Equation - Negative Value of x

01/13/2011 7:26 PM

I didn't think my math was that rusty. Can someone please explain why this answer is not correct?
[(x+1)^2-(2x+1)]^0.5+2*abs(x)-6 = 0
[x^2+2x+1-2x-1]^0.5+2*abs(x)-6 = 0
[x^2]^0.5+2*abs(x)-6 = 0
abs(x)+2*abs(x)-6 = 0
3*abs(x) = 6
abs(x) = 2
x=(-2,2)
For the original question, the x=-2 solution is the negative answer requested. The x=2 solution is the remaining positive solution. I'd be very interested in seeing how additional solutions are derived.

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#13
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Re: Help With Equation - Negative Value of x

01/13/2011 7:36 PM

(x2)0.5 = ±x; giving two more solutions, each using the negative square root.

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#15
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Re: Help With Equation - Negative Value of x

01/14/2011 7:45 AM

Perhaps I'm missing something, but when I put x = 6 or -6 into the formula, I get 12, not 0.

Cheers........Codey

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#16

Re: Help With Equation - Negative Value of x

01/14/2011 9:33 AM

Only possible solutions are +/-2

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#17
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Re: Help With Equation - Negative Value of x

01/14/2011 10:50 AM

When you take the negative square root (0.5 power), you get the other half of the graph.

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#18
In reply to #16

Re: Help With Equation - Negative Value of x

01/14/2011 11:02 AM

From the Mathcad help section...

Square root

Keystroke: \

Returns the positive square root of x.

Tornado has already pointed it out. There are two answers to a square root, one positive (the answer that your calculator and software such as excel and mathcad gives you) and one negative.

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#20
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Re: Help With Equation - Negative Value of x

01/14/2011 12:47 PM

Yes, I stand corrected. Forgot Mathcad only did positive square root. Here is a plot of 4 equations showing all 4 possibilities. Hope the color is clear enough to see the differences.

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#19

Re: Help With Equation - Negative Value of x

01/14/2011 11:32 AM

Apparently negative square roots are deemed off-topic, at least by one idiot.

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#21

Re: Help With Equation - Negative Value of x

01/14/2011 12:51 PM

ok for those of you who aren't grasping the negative root concept let's do a quick review...

x = y2

Imagine going up and down the Y-axis squaring each number to obtain the X value. Note there is nothing preventing you from squaring a negative Y value. The graph is a sideways parabola. Now take note that for each value of X there are TWO Y values (one positive and one negative).

Now let's rearrange our equation taking the square root of each side to put it into a standard form.

y = x1/2

The graph doesn't change (it is still the same function). There are still two Y values for each and every X. Excel, Mathcad, and calculators are programmed to return only the POSITIVE root.

As Tornado has tried to point out, there are four equations here and hence four solutions...

(±x ± 2x = 6)

x + 2x = 6 (x = 2)

x - 2x = 6 (x = -6)

-x + 2x = 6 (x = 6)

-x - 2x = 6 (x = -2)

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#23
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Re: Help With Equation - Negative Value of x

01/14/2011 1:33 PM

"There are still two Y values for each and every X. Excel, Mathcad, and calculators are programmed to return only the POSITIVE root. "

Understood, but the square-root of negative number is a non-real or an Imaginary number . Not applicable in this case.

A real number squared, then square-rooted is an alternate definition of the Absolute value function. The value inside the root of the original equation can never be negative for any real value X. Therefore the root can never be an Imaginary number. Adding a negative sign outside the root alters the original equation and is not a valid solution.

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#24
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Re: Help With Equation - Negative Value of x

01/14/2011 2:11 PM

Wrong again. No square roots are being taken of negative numbers in this exercise; this is about the negative square root of positive numbers. In particular, √36 = +6 and also -6.

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#25
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Re: Help With Equation - Negative Value of x

01/14/2011 3:01 PM

"A real number squared, then square-rooted is an alternate definition of the Absolute value function."

Where did that definition come from? It can't be correct. It doesn't work for any negative number.

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#26
In reply to #23

Re: Help With Equation - Negative Value of x

01/14/2011 3:56 PM

I urge you to graph y2 = x as I mentioned above. It won't take but a few minutes. Start at y = -10 square it and plot the value (100,-10). Add one to Y and continue until you get to y = 10. Then connect the dots.

You will see there are 2 values of Y for each and every X. (and note that all X values are non-negative).

Now take the square root of the function... so...

y = sqrt (x)

It is the same function. Nothing has changed. There are still 2 values of Y for each X.

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#27
In reply to #23

Re: Help With Equation - Negative Value of x

01/14/2011 4:01 PM

Actually simplify the whole thing even more... let's read in words what this says...

x = sqrt (36)

It says, what number when multiplied by itself is equal to 36? both 6 and -6 satisfy this.

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#22

Re: Help With Equation - Negative Value of x

01/14/2011 1:24 PM

Expanding [(x+1)2 - (2x+1)]0.5 + 2|x| - 6 =0,

we get [x2 + 2x +1 - 2x - 1]0.5 + 2|x| - 6 =0

Or [x2]0.5 + 2|x| = 6

Or ±x + 2|x| = 6

So either 3x = 6 (x = 2) or x = 6 (2 and 6 are the positive roots)

But if x = -2 or x = -6 the result is the same so -2 and -6 are the negative roots.

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#28

Re: Help With Equation - Negative Value of x

01/14/2011 5:56 PM

I'm glad you get the positive/negative root issue. There's only one more small step to make...

To "square root" a number is the same as taking it to the one-half power or in decimal form 0.5 (which is part of the original function).

sqrt(x) = x0.5 = x1/2

Good to go? If not, don't sweat it... I'll keep explaining until you get it.

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#32
In reply to #28

Re: Help With Equation - Negative Value of x

01/16/2011 12:23 PM

Not necessary. Kind of you to offer assistance but there is no confusion here regarding negative square-roots.
My issue is due to interpretation of absent notation. I'll try to explain one more time...

f(x)= [(x+1)2 - (2x+1)]0.5 + 2|x| - 6 = 0 is the original equation and no sign in front of the square-root is implicitly the positive square-root.

If both the positive and negative square-roots are needed, the equation is explicitly written with the plus-minus notation.

f(x)= ±[(x+1)2 - (2x+1)]0.5 + 2|x| - 6 = 0

This notation is shorthand for 2 equations, the positive square-root equation...
f(x)= +[(x+1)2 - (2x+1)]0.5 + 2|x| - 6 = 0 for x={-2,2}

and the negative square-root equation...
f(x)= -[(x+1)2 - (2x+1)]0.5 + 2|x| - 6 = 0 for x={-6,6}

Simple substitution shows that each solution set is only valid for one equation.

As an example, the ubiquitous formula for finding the two quadratic function roots is explicitly written with the plus-minus notation so that both positive and negative square-roots are evaluated.

[-b ±sqrt(b2-4ac)]/2a = [solutions for f(x) = ax2+bx+c = 0]

This formula generates 2 equations...

[-b + sqrt(b2-4ac)]/2a = root1
[-b - sqrt(b2-4ac)]/2a = root2

where each equation provides one of the quadratic root solutions.

I am just disagreeing that the negative square-root solution applies to the posted original equation because it was not explicitly called for with the plus-minus notation.

Additionally, just because
f(x)= x2-8|x|+12 = 0 for x={-6,-2,2,-6}
or that many other functions like
f(x)= x4-40x2+144 = 0 for x={-6,-2,2,6}
have the same roots does not mean they are the same functions.
No worries, this horse is dead enough. Reminds me of this old gem.

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#33
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Re: Help With Equation - Negative Value of x

01/16/2011 2:41 PM

I am quite taken aback how difficult are such equations for CR4 participants and how proud they are to suggest a solution. This is a sign. The last comment is not correct since it is NOT necessary to put a sign there is a definition by the equation and this should be enough. It was generally agreed upon NOT to give solutions but only to help by hints. The problem has been considered so complex that many looked at it as chalenge and wanted to show that they can solve it.

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#29

Re: Help With Equation - Negative Value of x

01/14/2011 6:46 PM

Take the initial equation: [(x+1)2-(2x+1)]0.5 + 2|x| - 6 = 0

Substitute 2 for x and see if the left hand side equals 0.

[(2+1)2-(2*2+1)]0.5 + 2|2| - 6 = [9-5]0.5 + 4 - 6 = [4]0.5 + 4 - 6,

but [4]0.5 has two values +2 and -2.

So 2 + 4 - 6 = 0 and -2 + 4 - 6 = 4 thus 2 is valid solution.

Substitute -2 for x and see if the left hand side equals 0.

[(-2+1)2-(2*-2+1)]0.5 + 2|-2| - 6 = [1+3]0.5 + 4 - 6 = [4]0.5 + 4 - 6,

but [4]0.5 has two values +2 and -2.

So 2 + 4 - 6 = 0 and -2 + 4 - 6 = 4 thus -2 is valid solution.

Substitute 6 for x and see if the left hand side equals 0.

[(6+1)2-(2*6+1)]0.5 + 2|6| - 6 = [49-13]0.5 + 12 - 6 = [36]0.5 + 12 - 6,

but [36]0.5 has two values +6 and -6.

So 6 + 12 - 6 = 12 and -6 + 12 - 6 = 0 thus 6 is valid solution.

Substitute -6 for x and see if the left hand side equals 0.

[(-6+1)2-(2*-6+1)]0.5 + 2|-6| - 6 = [25+11]0.5 + 12 - 6 = [36]0.5 + 12 - 6,

but [36]0.5 has two values +6 and -6.

So 6 + 12 - 6 = 12 and -6 + 12 - 6 = 0 thus -6 is valid solution.

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#30

Re: Help With Equation - Negative Value of x

01/15/2011 12:06 AM

For those who are still unconvinced, another approach is as follows:

[(x+1)2 - (2x[(x+1)2 - (2x+1)]0.5 + 2|x| - 6 =0 which is:

[(x)2]0.5 = - 2|x| + 6 = 2x + 6 (since x is negative)

Squaring both sides,

x2 = 4x2 + 24x + 36

Or 3x2 + 24x + 36 = 0

Or x2 + 8x + 12 = 0

This can be factored into (x+2)(x+6) = 0, leaving us with the two negative roots (-2, -6). If positive roots are wanted, they would be found to be (2, 6) by a similar procedure.

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#31

Re: Help With Equation - Negative Value of x

01/15/2011 11:11 AM

This thread establishes an important CR4 principle, namely that we must not help members with their homework but it's okay to help members' kid sisters with theirs.

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#34

Re: Help With Equation - Negative Value of x

01/17/2011 3:31 AM

This whole thread has bogged down on the question of negative square roots of positive numbers. Every positive number does indeed have two square roots. Some conventions define √x (or x0.5) to be the positive square root only. Adhering to that would eliminate the ±6 solutions to the original problem. A "mathematically pure" view would still allow them, but this notational convention would rule them out. Therefore I relax the earlier insistence on including them.

For a negative number x, the two square roots are "±i√x", which is in quotes because + and - don't have a clear meaning in the complex plane. Hence my preference for keeping both square roots considered as equally legitimate.

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#35
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Re: Help With Equation - Negative Value of x

01/17/2011 4:52 AM

I concur. Normally I do try to avoid solving homework problems. In this case I was just too curious about why the general consensus regarding square-root conventions and extraneous solutions appeared to be contrary to what I'd been taught. Thanks for the clarification and sorry about the "bog".

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#36
In reply to #34

Re: Help With Equation - Negative Value of x

01/17/2011 9:53 AM

Hello Tornado

Not sure about the last bit. I know what you mean, but strictly speaking it should be ±i√mod(x). If x is negative ±i√x = ±i*i*√mod(x) = ±√mod(x).

Also there's no difficulty plotting ±i√mod(x) in the complex plane. It gives 2 points on the imaginary axis, at distances ±√mod(x) from the origin.

Cheers........Codey

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#37
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Re: Help With Equation - Negative Value of x

01/17/2011 10:21 AM

Sort of correct; I should have said ±i√|x|, or ±i√(-x). But mod(x) is another concept. There is no problem graphing the roots, but there is a problem in designating what is + or - in the complex plane. For instance, is 1-i positive or negative?

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#38
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Re: Help With Equation - Negative Value of x

01/17/2011 11:34 AM

OK, by mod(x) I meant same as |x|. Like the OP, I didn't think I could type |x|, but I tried it and it worked!

The question "is 1-i positive or negative?" has no meaning in the complex domain. Also > and < have no meaning.

Codey

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