Doyle Rotary: NOx and Hydrocarbon Question

I agree with you though I may not be able to visualize your DRE, because you have not provided schematic diagram or figure to represent how it works. Theoritically, air and fuel mix well at lower temperature and pressure. Also Nox are formed around temperature somewhere 400deg C up . Having this facts/criteria being anticipated in the design of your DRE. I could say, definitely your right. However, i suggest, to prove your speculation, have your DRE emission tested or evaluated at say loads from 10% to 100%, you can use Testo gas analyzer for this at ease.

Go here and take a look: http://doylerotary.com

I am not competent to remark on the byproducts of the combustion process in their engine.

I don't have the expertise to answer your question, but I do have a question for you to think about.

Would this other company be considered a competitor to the Doyle engine?

If so, they would probably like nothing better than for you guys to throw in the towel.

I could be completely off base too.

Is there any way to do a computer simulation of the Doyle running, and plugging in the numbers to determine emissions?

We both have similar goals for our engines and the same target market so we are competitors in the same race. We realize this and we know they realize it based on the second conversation my dad had with Grail. A quick read of the notes my dad took while they were on the phone reveals their position.

When talking about my dad's engine they used the phrase "your novelty engine". When describing themselves and their engine they used phrases like "we are changing the face of humanity." When they explained about our emissions problems they told my dad that he doesn't understand as much about engines because they have been living and breathing engines for 20 years. They said that they wish someone could have talked to my dad years ago so that he wouldn't have wasted so many years. They continued on to say that it wasn't a complete waste of time because developing the engine was a great learning curve.

Its funny that you said they would like for us to "throw in the towel" because they basically said this to us. Several times during the phone call they suggested that my dad should drop his novelty engine and go work for Grail Engine Technologies working with a team to revolutionize the engine market with the engine that is second to none. They told him that if he worked at Grail engines he would be doing something that his kids and family could be proud of.

My dad declined the job saying that he enjoys what he is doing even if it is just a hobby and doesn't go anywhere.

We haven't been able to sit down and study the Grail Engine in depth but we plan to study it a bit before the SAE congress and then study it some more at their exhibit. We can't really form any opinions until we do this. If any of you have any knowledge about the Grail engine please let us know what you think.

As far as computer simulations go, we do not possess the required skills. One of the goals of exhibiting at the congress is to get connected with someone that can put our engine in front of a team of researchers (last year my dad approached Southwest Research Institute but the venture failed when the engineer he spoke to in person didn't seem to be listening). We hope that being an exhibitor will give us the look of a legitimate operation and help us get a foot in the door at a different research facility.

Best of luck to you and your Dad.

Its funny that you said they would like for us to "throw in the towel" because they basically said this to us. Several times during the phone call they suggested that my dad should drop his novelty engine and go work for Grail Engine Technologies working with a team to revolutionize the engine market with the engine that is second to none. They told him that if he worked at Grail engines he would be doing something that his kids and family could be proud of.

Not that my opinion means a whole lot, but screw these guys and carry on!

If they thought there was no merit in the Doyle engine, they would have said nothing and allowed you to continue wasting your time.

The fact that they offered your Dad a job, is not because they feel sorry for him, it's because he knows things that they don't.

You guys have come too far to abandon this project. In my mind, the fact that Grail is so interested in you quitting this project is proof that you're onto something.

To hell with them!

Now if they want to talk big money and a collaborative effort, that may be a different story.

PS- Don't take it personally, but I feel the need to hit the report button. I'm hoping that a sympathetic moderator will leave your thread intact, but remove the references to your competitors name. You really need watch what you say at this point. Naming names is probably not a good idea.

I understand. My wife works for lawyers. Lawyers don't care about the truth. Lawyers care about the perception of truth,(money). I'm trying to help you out here. Be careful.

Thanks for checking in. Everyone here on CR4 wants to see this come together.

From what you have described, there are no facts in this matter. There are only phone conversations that can be denied by either party. I understand you are trying to take the high road, but don't count on a phone conversation as being legal evidence. Even if you record it, there is a good chance that it won't be allowed. Events that actually occurred can be denied. Take a course in law and proceed carefully with your communications. They can be used against you.

ADoyle88,

Not that my opinion matters either but I have to agree with kramarat.

Obviously it is you and your Dad's choice to go to work for GXXXL, quit, or carry on but I concur "screw these guys and carry on!"

Best wishes - KJK

If "Grail Engine" really wants to change the face of humanity, they should bring on board some real visionaries such as M S Divekar, Chris Devine, walksinstorms, et. al.

Don't forget our lil' buddy DASenergy.

I forgot "kastrupsky", Dennis Lee, Perendev, and no doubt a few others as well. I didn't mean to play favorites, however.

After reading the discussion here, I thought I would start a new Thread, to discuss some of the underlying issues that we seem to be avoiding for various reasons

Based upon my experience with such situations, it sounds like they are scared of you and your efforts.

Keep up your good work. The opposition can go you know where.

You should visit their Website. An excellent working model of green-washing, publicity-hounding, etc., but rather lacking in technical explanation. (Though there might be proprietary reasons to keep some of that under wraps.)

I think you are talking the talk. All internal combustion engines exhaust toxins that must be controlled. I don't see any reason why yours should be worse than others. Emission control systems such as catalytic converters are used to reduce NOx and oxidize HC and CO emissions. I suspect you plan to regulate excess O2 with a sensor, a computer, and fuel injection. So, I see no reason why your engine can not be made as clean as required.

There are many advantages (as listed below) i saw on your link, and this really quite an impressive innovation of an I.C.E over the years. It looks to me an efficient engine and environmental friendly too, however, one thing I can only say is about the impact of the transition, if this type of engine has to adapt or commercialized, i could imagine people losing their jobs and Automotive industries will have less income and volume of investment for spare parts in comparison to the existing I.C. engine we are using. Not only for the Car industries but the same effect to all producer suppliers, like metal industries for the spare parts.

This is a big-time economic talk. And, I guess we can only hope the transition will be peaceful.

But, totally, this is a very remarkable innovation.

"Business loves entropy" it always does.

i can help

Identify yourself and state your opinions and/or solutions !

Have you considered water injection? Injecting deionized water into the combustion chamber is a widely used technique to control NOx emissions in combustion turbines. This works by keeping the flame front temperature below 1250 F ( approx 675 C ) which is the point at which NOx production really takes off. It is also very important to keep excess O2 as low as possible because O2 is approx 20% of atmospheric air and N2 is approx 80% - so you are pulling 4 times the volume of N2 thru the engine compared to O2. Add to this a higher than needed combustion chamber temperature and the result is a lot of NOx being produced. You must use DI or distilled water because the minerals in tap water will become deposits in the combustion chamber and on pistons and valves. Edmund

Injecting water to combustion chamber, may seem help the atomization of fuel inside at very little amount, however the question is, how much can you sacrifice really for the heat the could have been utilized as work in order to generate less NOx.

The calorific value of fuel that should have been utilized as work there will be less then the latent heat of water converting it from liquid to vapor. Making your combustion inefficient.

By Carnot efficiency, η= 1-(Tc/Th) where, Tc-lower temperature reservoir(ambient) kelvin; Th-High Temperature reservoir(Average Operating Temp. of Engine) Kelvin

η= 1-(Tc/Th), efficiency suffers when Th closes Tc, the higher the Th, the better the efficiency, however at higher Th you get higher NOx production. Your proposal to put some water on it, Th will be lesser, resulting to a lower efficiency.

The question really is, how much Nox will you have to remove at a minimal effect on the efficiency.

Efficiency means, the work done less the losses you get from investing an amount of energy.

Say for example, you pay USD 5/liter fuel, burning it you only get USD 4/Liter of fuel energy converted to work. Adding up your water, instead that you get USD 4/Liter energy, it can make only about USD 3.8/L of fuel energy. The USD 0.2/L there is wasted because of the water injected to the combustion chamber.

With these two parameters, between NOx generation & efficiency, there is a point we call OPTIMUM, and that is what these engineers are doing.

Finding OUT the OPTIMUM.

Doyle: Your engine has potential.

Don't mess with the Grail guys. They might only be stupid, but they also might be nasty. You don't want your name to surface in searches in the same places that theirs does -- it drags you down. You wouldn't want your engine associated with HHO or Turbinators, or fuel line magnets, either.

The Grail engine appears to have no potential. The cylinder will not properly scavenge. The transfer ports are far too small. The crankcase compression ratio is too low. The exhaust valve is open at mainly the wrong time and for too short a duration. An engine running as shown in the animation might produce 20 hp per liter. The fact that they are associated with Pulstar plugs (which do nothing that an ordinary spark plug cannot do) should be a tip-off.

The fundamental problem with a two-stroke is not oil contamination of the fuel -- it is all the other issues, mainly related to induction, transfer, and exhaust timing, poor cylinder scavenging, and the dependence on exhaust pulse tuning (and therefore, the resulting peakiness and contamination of exhaust with incoming charge, leading to high HC emissions). In these respects, the Grail appears worse than a standard weed-whacker engine.