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Controlled Atmosphere For Coffee

04/02/2011 8:17 AM

When produccing coffee for expresso, we use controlled atmosphere to avoid oxidation. Usually Ar and N2 are recommended but we are thinking about using CO2. Apparently it could help in several ways: cost, better behaviTour to transport as it can be diluted inif there are changes of pressure and part and even a control of CO2 esmiision of the coffee.

Are there other problems we are not considering? Thanks in advance for any help

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#1

Re: Controlled Atmosphere For Coffee

04/02/2011 8:49 AM

Re: Are there other problems we are not considering?

Of course ;-) I can think of one--does it have affect the taste of the final product? Have you or anyone else actually tried it? Can you start with a small scale experiment--roast 1 lb. of coffee beans in a CO2 atmosphere.

I can even imagine putting a pound of coffee beans in a pressure cooker, then use a small CO2 cylinder and pressure regulator (like used in beverage service) to purge the atmosphere in the pressure cooker and replace it with CO2. Keep a small flow of CO2 going into the pressure cooker while you heat it to roast the beans to avoid "atmospheric contamination".

You could decide whether to actually use the pressure cooker weighted "regulator" to maintain something higher than atmospheric pressure in the pressure cooker or not.

In any case, use care, don't solidly pipe the CO2 to the pressure cooker unless you have other means to keep the pressure from exceeding 15 psig (the typical max pressure for a pressure cooker / canner for home use).

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#2

Re: Controlled Atmosphere For Coffee

04/03/2011 12:26 AM

Evidently, although CO2 is odorless, it may not necessarily be tasteless. You may want to do extensive testing with a panel of taste testers before you commit to using CO2.

Humans can 'taste' carbon dioxide in fizzy drinks

By Steve Connor, Science Editor

Friday, 16 October 2009

The human tongue can taste the "flavour" of carbon dioxide in the bubbles of fizzy drinks...

Scientists have found that taste receptors on the tongue which detect the flavour of sour food can also respond to the gases of carbonated or fermented drinks...

Charles Zuker, a neuroscientist at Columbia University in New York, found that a class of taste-receptor cells in the tongue respond to carbon dioxide, and specifically identified an enzyme called carbonic anhydrase 4 in the detection of the gas. Previous research had concluded that the tingling sensation produced from fizzy drinks was due to the bursting of CO2 bubbles but the new research revealed that the way we taste may also be responsible...

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/humans-can-taste-carbon-dioxide-in-fizzy-drinks-1803637.html

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#3

Re: Controlled Atmosphere For Coffee

04/03/2011 8:44 AM

It occurs to me that the expense of making ground coffee that lasts longer with your machine so it's not going to stale might well be higher than the cost of storing coffee properly in an airtight and light-free environment. After all, I've been making coffee for about 35 years now, have no desire to drink any type of coffee that is not premium. I roast beans in a traditional rolling barrel or hot air blast, grind them with a burr grinder, and drip filter through linen or paper. If making expresso, I burn (figuratively in my mind) them up and grind them finer. What a shame.

Are you talking about commercial quantities to ship long periods of time? I would say, grind on site before brew is pretty well established as the best way. What is the desired result, if you could tell us?

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#4
In reply to #3

Re: Controlled Atmosphere For Coffee

04/03/2011 2:49 PM

Thanks. Yes, we are speaking about a commercial producer. We think CO2 could be an alternative but we have found no references to promote/reject the change from N2/Ar.

Taste could be a point.....

Regards

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#5

Re: Controlled Atmosphere For Coffee

04/03/2011 2:50 PM

Thanks to both comments. Very interesting link. We'll do some taste tests. Anyway, using N2 the final packages contains some quantities of CO2, so it should be detected anyway, although obviously in smaller quantities.

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#6

Re: Controlled Atmosphere For Coffee

04/03/2011 6:12 PM

Co2 will form carbonic acid if combined with water vapour or liquid. If beans are Robusta this might improve the flavour but I doubt it. Best to use Robusta as compost.

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#31
In reply to #6

Re: Controlled Atmosphere For Coffee

04/09/2011 8:12 AM

Worse yet, it could be Kona.

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#32
In reply to #31

Re: Controlled Atmosphere For Coffee

04/09/2011 10:18 AM

Kona? That's amongst one of the best coffees that's grown. What're you drinking and how old is it?

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#7

Re: Controlled Atmosphere For Coffee

04/04/2011 2:49 AM

Greetings Franof. Coffee's not really my thing but be aware of health risks associated with carbonic acid and copper / brass fittings if present in the system.

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#8

Re: Controlled Atmosphere For Coffee

04/04/2011 11:24 AM

CO2 should be a perfect fit for your application due to the fact that it is odorless and tasteless, and since it is stored as a liquid not a gas. A bottle will go also much further than an equivalent bottle of N2 which is stored as a gas. You should however observe the following:

1. Use only food grade CO2 like the beverage industry uses.

2. Monitor for any accumulation is your work area. CO2 is heavier than air, and since it is odorless and unseen, accumulation may occur in low areas. CO2 displaces oxygen and personnel could suffocate. Also, CO2 has an unfortunate effect on the brain, a person who is overcome does not even know it is happening.

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#9

Re: Controlled Atmosphere For Coffee

04/04/2011 7:07 PM

CO2, carbon dioxide, is one atom carbon and two atoms oxygen, Now I'm not a chemist but I would think that to avoid oxidation (degradation due to oxygen) one would not use a gas that is two parts oxygen.

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#10
In reply to #9

Re: Controlled Atmosphere For Coffee

04/04/2011 7:17 PM

Completely correct - you are indeed "not a chemist"

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#11
In reply to #10

Re: Controlled Atmosphere For Coffee

04/04/2011 7:42 PM

Hey 34... your point is well taken. But really... do you really have a need to confront and insult the guy that is merely trying to help out the OP with his own opinion on the subject?

It boggles the mind, how when given the choice of being respectful to peers, or being an aggressive a-hole... so many of the core people here on CR4 choose the latter... when it's so unnecessary. There could be a meeting of a lot of great minds here... or there could be friction and insults and lack of respect between the main group of "regulars"... and everyone else.

I respect your knowledge, man... and most of the regulars. But what y'all don't really seem to get is that there are a lot of people worldwide that come to this place... experience the rudeness and constant lack of respect among peers... and just blow this off, as not worth it, and never come back. I just don't see the reasoning behind that. A thick skin isn't a pre-requisite to be an engineer. And we lose a lot of good people due to this kind of crap. And it leaves this place to the few die-hards that are the "toughest". It was mild, but the guy didn't deserve to be diss'd like that. You don't know him at all. That, kind-of has become the norm here. And it takes away from what this forum could really be, at its best.

Just my opinion. No disrespect to you, specifically. Just trying to make a point. You people really need to let others speak their minds without fear of being humiliated. Right or wrong.

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#12
In reply to #11

Re: Controlled Atmosphere For Coffee

04/04/2011 9:10 PM

"confront and insult"?

"opinion on the subject"?

"diss'd like that"?

"You don't know him at all"?

"You people"?

So which of us has I read his 25 posts since 2006? and are familiar with his skill-sets and 'expression style'?

The post is misleading, fact free, un-researched 'opinion' - as is your 'lecture'

But thankfully; one 'opiner' is brief

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#13
In reply to #9

Re: Controlled Atmosphere For Coffee

04/04/2011 9:20 PM

I'm not a chemist either, but, under most circumstances, the oxygen in CO2 is tightly bound to the carbon and it is safe to use CO2 in many circumstances to avoid oxidation.

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#14
In reply to #13

Re: Controlled Atmosphere For Coffee

04/04/2011 10:07 PM

I, too, am not a chemist. So I can't give an opinion as to the accuracy of the suggestion, one way or the other. But rhkramer, your response to it is perfectly helpful, civil, useful, critical in a constructive way that educates the one who made the suggestion... and non-demeaning.

In fact, it's a perfect response to the post that is in question. If I was a first time visitor to CR4, and read that exchange... I would be completely impressed and encouraged, regarding the exchanges between peers that happen on this forum. It would feel educational and fun and useful. I would tell other engineers about this site, and recommend it.

All of that is in complete contrast to the previous post that only drives people away from here, and certainly doesn't encourage anyone to recommend this forum to anybody else.

That's all I'm saying; as I've been saying for several years now. My hopes are that eventually my reasoning will get through to some of the other people that frequent CR4, and they will eventually agree, and they will modify their behavior towards others on here. I'm sure it would result in a better place for many more intelligent people... rather than the domain of just a few core individuals.

I'm sure my "lecturing" on civility irks some of you. But if no one at least makes an effort, the "Lord of the Flies" mentality here will just feed on itself, in perpetuity. I have higher hopes than that. Peace.

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#15
In reply to #14

Re: Controlled Atmosphere For Coffee

04/04/2011 10:55 PM

Duckinthepond and BeerGuy have answered why argon or nitrogen are 'recommended' as CO2 not.

I have GA'd both as they are on topic, relevant and factually correct.

All that's happened since is 'opining' much of it OT, but not placed so.

You don't need to be a chemist - just go could here and note this.

"It has no electrical dipole, and as it is fully oxidized, it is moderately reactive and is non-flammable, but will support the combustion of metals such as magnesium"

Now if you understood the Ducks comment, you would also realize what/how CO2 is being tasted - but perhaps you need to be a chemist.

And if you understood that it's a chemistry issue - you may understand the frustration 'opining' creates for people who see it as just noise burying 'important facts'.

So my counter suggestion if you want folks to be 'less abrupt'; is make your issue about the cause of the frustration. Pages of banal opining occluding relevant input.

and ticking OT is simple see?

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#16
In reply to #15

Re: Controlled Atmosphere For Coffee

04/04/2011 11:14 PM

Look... it's a simple thing. It's possible to disagree, and educate, and "opine"... without being a prick about it. How about teaching without degrading? That is usually seen as an honorable trait amongst human beings.

This is not a new or controversial concept.

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#17
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Re: Controlled Atmosphere For Coffee

04/04/2011 11:52 PM

It's purely your coloration that painted me as being a 'prick'

Also that you chose not to recognize a standard riposte, as a standard joke.

This continuing campaign to cast me in a bad light is duly noted.

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#18
In reply to #17

Re: Controlled Atmosphere For Coffee

04/05/2011 12:48 AM

It's I that cast you in a bad light, huh? Nice spin.

You'd rather this confrontation, than simply admitting you were less than cordial to an innocent contributor?

No. It wasn't a horrid attack on anyone. But the fact is, this crap never stops from about 10 or 12 of you regulars, that somehow seem to feel some kind of entitlement. We are not all "in" on your inside jokes and jabs at folks that are not in the inner circle. You guys clearly think it's hilarious... and you get three or four of you in a room at once... no one stands a chance.

Not quite sure where your indignation is coming from. Or your veiled threat that my "campaign" is "noted" (I'll be sure to beware). But yes I do have a campaign. Trying to encourage civility among peers in CR4, so that fewer people would leave once they discover the childish bullying in here by the "central committee". I've never made a secret of that. It's a good cause.

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#19
In reply to #18

Re: Controlled Atmosphere For Coffee

04/05/2011 6:33 AM

"No. It wasn't a horrid attack on anyone"

No it wasn't, was it, so why the hissy fit?

BTW that's not a "veiled threat".

(I don't make threats - threats are just forewarning. I act, or I don't. But fear not for your votes being 'back doored' - I don't do that. Fear not, that the anonymous OT is mine - IF I do it, I make people certain I did it.)

It's simply an observation that you have singled me out, on other occasions for some imagined travesty, coincidentally since I pointed out your were factually in error in a couple of your posts. Since when, I generally ignore your posts; and the urge to 'educate you'; as you take so poorly.

This applies to a number of members who have major 'transference to personal affront' when their data is demonstrated erroneous.

It's interesting that you write; "this crap never stops from about 10 or 12 of you regulars, that somehow seem to feel some kind of entitlement. We are not all "in" on your inside jokes and jabs at folks that are not in the inner circle. You guys clearly think it's hilarious... and you get three or four of you in a room at once... no one stands a chance."

Which translates roughly to "10 or 12 of you are usually right", "respect each other" - but 'not us' (me)

Second of note; it's always 'we' and 'us' - never "I" or "me" - never 'on my own two feet' as the "10 or 12" will always argue.

Franky; this is about as ridiculous as when another 'make it personal', complained about me knowing "too much" [to be brought down on facts] - so touted personal attack as the only option available to "us all".

Now if this is 'cadre' v 'cadre' - where are mine? Who are yours?

The 'other 9 or 11' of 'alleged mine' probably are scratching their heads over your 'campaign' as they would remember you RE-authored a set of comments by me, on 'homework' - then appointed yourself as Omnipotent Crusader - and are now again attacking the provider of your self styled mandate.

My 'alleged cohorts', some of who argued diligently and energetically against my position, may very well be laughing their heads off at this 'outcome'.

But hey - let's get to your "biggie" and assume; Le «Comité Central» de l'intimidation Enfantine, has ceased rolling about on the floor at me being hauled up before your Excellency;

"You'd rather this confrontation, than simply admitting you were less than cordial to an innocent contributor?"

Ignoring a play on 'innocent and fins on bombers'; I take the inference is: I cannot admit when I'm wrong.

As it happens I was wrong last week. It was hinted to me that I had made a mistake - I 'missed' the hint - I was then asked directly "did you check that ...?"

I had not - it was wrong - I replied thus;

Do you see the essential prerequisite?

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#20
In reply to #19

Re: Controlled Atmosphere For Coffee

04/05/2011 7:24 AM

I was interested in the topic, now I'm bored with a lovers spat.

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#22
In reply to #18

Re: Controlled Atmosphere For Coffee

04/05/2011 11:50 AM

Re: It's a good cause. (and etc.)

+1

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#21
In reply to #14

Re: Controlled Atmosphere For Coffee

04/05/2011 11:45 AM

Thanks!

I agree with you about the civility and the "Lord of the Flies" like mentality.

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#23

Re: Controlled Atmosphere For Coffee

04/05/2011 3:55 PM

..........and then there was the cup of coffee that miraculously attracted another carbon molecule, promptly turned into Co3, self detonated and blew the hell out've Franofs' thread........................hopefully he hadn't swallowed any yet

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#24
In reply to #23

Re: Controlled Atmosphere For Coffee

04/05/2011 11:17 PM

Is this where I say "completely incorrect - you are indeed not a chemist"?

[wouldn't that be C2O2, not that I'm disputing the reactivity resulting]

I wonder where the spear sharpeners last read a reference to Lord of the Flies on CR4

Ok, I'm ready - do your worst!

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#25
In reply to #24

Re: Controlled Atmosphere For Coffee

04/06/2011 7:19 AM

seriously, that artwork is very nice, and so related. Is it yours? Kudos.

(I have always loved Hokusai's wave)

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#26
In reply to #25

Re: Controlled Atmosphere For Coffee

04/06/2011 11:02 AM

No, I stole of the net, not having anything in my collection 'on topic'

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#27
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Re: Controlled Atmosphere For Coffee

04/06/2011 6:53 PM

CR4 ADMIN: Deleted Post

Abuse/Attack: This post was deleted because it was an attack on another user. Please review the CR4 Site FAQ and the CR4 Rules of Conduct

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#28
In reply to #27

Re: Controlled Atmosphere For Coffee

04/06/2011 10:30 PM

I gather you did your worst - but sadly I missed it

[can anyone PM me a copy? I bet it was hilarious]

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#29
In reply to #28

Re: Controlled Atmosphere For Coffee

04/07/2011 9:53 AM

Totally Nonsense......there was absolutely no abuse intended nor given....unless, of course the admin 'saw' it that way....poor humorless souls, sitting at their screens ad infinitum, pining away for a real life......fleeting delusions of micro-management....just kidding admin.....but c'mon eh!

I merely alluded to your getting your knickers tied into knots over a single molecule....with a few choice poetic epiphets thrown in for added colour.

Yeah....it was funny!

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#30
In reply to #29

Re: Controlled Atmosphere For Coffee

04/07/2011 10:48 AM

Damn shame; I was so looking forward to rolling around the floor - after that dull and laborious exercise, but there you go.

But I'm sure another opportunity will present it self - and hopefully by then, more people will recognize humour.

Later Duck

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