Forest Fire Fighting Machine

GA for pertinent research

"high winds hampered efforts to fight it from the air."

And if you combine that with the sparseness of growth apparently able to carry this fire - plans of 'cutting a fire stop', from the air, in these conditions, just went down in flames.

However; if you could deliver 'targeted vectored humidity' - you may have a product.

From the link "About 100 members of the Texas Forest Service have been fighting the big wildfire by land and air, along with local volunteer departments."

100 Texas Forests Service members on a 125 square mile fire? That's pathetic!! Barely enough to keep track of the fire let alone fight it. Must be that "self reliance" approach to life there. And how about the pic of volunteer firefighter trying to fight the fire with an oversized garden hose? ....I suspect the residents of those effected counties are going to greet the next session of the Texas Leg bearing pitchforks.

Chorete says "South of Europe is getting desertized in front of my own eyes." Pay attention all ........... A few more years of this global warming and the predicted weather extremes and the rest of Texas is going to look like the land west of Pecos. And that won't be the only place.

So go ahead and heap ridicule on Chorete for trying to wake people up. Maybe his idea will have at best a limited niche application even after lots of careful refinement. But believe me, pretty soon you, unless you are living within a stone's throw of a big body of water or in the middle of a city, are all going to be looking for solutions to the issue of droughts and wildland fires.

Ed Weldon

I hardly see that link as "heap ridicule on Chorete for trying to wake people up"

And yes "Maybe his idea will have at best a limited niche application even after lots of careful refinement"

And typically 100 core personnel can activate 1000's of volunteers. And I'm sure if it was more than 100 salaried staff - we'd be hearing about the burden on the frigging taxpayer, for both them and the R&D $ for some helicopter idea.

And FYI that branch is about 20 garden hoses

But yes solutions are required - in the meantime, maybe start by giving voting the volunteers decent equipment and getting them access to world class training?

Two years ago, after some years of serious thinking and some experimenting, I decided that the idea was ripe and had good probabilities of success and prepared a serious plan for R&D.

I chose a large roofless, high walled, warehouse and prepared a plan for real burning tests in artifical small scale forests, symulating different types of trees.

In my long experience with low cost experiments (But highly scientific) I know that the number of variables is so great that practically always something fails and the experiment needs to be repeated. To use wooden trees is for millionaries.

So I developed metallic trees soaked in different types of oils that really symulate the real trees very well for their burning properties. They can be reused many times.

AS Chris said, there is no need to use actual machines but we can symulate their airflow, by electric fans hanging from 3D cranes, of the types used for audio in TV studios.

I had the fans to produce the needed artificial winds across the warehouse.

Everithing was ready to start serious experimenting mainly in how to burn wide firestops using only the machine, plus some ground based help.

The model trees, being of an unique design, need to be hand made, and so we can guess a price of several Euros each, including the needed materials. I'll need several thousand trees for a good symulation of different types of forests.

The Mountain Village where I live had recently suffered the worst forest fire of the Century, so I thought that getting the relatively amount of funds needed was going to be easy.

But I got an enormous opposition by the firemen (The same that had failed even to decrease the velocity of flame propagation. At last an enormous mediterranen dense forest was totally burned and hundreds of deer and javelins were killed),

And I never got an Euro.

With my scarce retiremant pay I could do vey little. This is why I feel angry at the situation. Because I may be right and the machine could be decisive in most types of fires.

THis is the reason why I am here in this forum trying to get at least some moral help.

People here complain that I do not hear the advices. Not true!.

The problem is that there is not enough space here to answer anybody with an idea why, I consider it of little use for waht I propose.

For example; Many of you have emphasized that each fire has its personality and that two fires are never the same.

TRUE, but nevertheless they always show general behaviuors that can be used to design my machine.

It is surprising that in a very chaotic event as a forest fire, there is always (Nearly always) a strong tendency to get organized by themselves, forming in the long run very well defined "Flame fronts". And this happens no matter how complex is the forest or the Ground.

My machine takes advantage of this phenomenon, even in the worst cases as in uphil fires.

But again the MAIN purpose of the machine is to burn firestops, and crude experiments had shown that this could be much easier

Chorete

I work at a cabinet making shop these days... we dispose of (give away and throw out) large volumes of materials that could be used for such an experiment. Perhaps you could find a woodworking shop in your area, and go ask them for wood. We have walk-ins regularly asking for hardwood scraps...

We also have a farm group that comes and empties our dust tower for us, and uses it on their fields.

I'm saying, if you go ask different companies, and look in junk yards, you can probably acquire most of your requirements for very little money. Again, I disagree with using liquid fuel, as it changes the nature of the fire completely. You want to get as close to the real thing as possible... even if it means pruning some plumed branches off of real trees. (best)

Also, I don't think you should conduct this inside a building. Any vertical airflow restriction at all, will change the dynamic of the flow.

Chris

Depends on model scale. If the "house" is tall enough it makes no difference.

The only condition is that the hot air flow can develop with respect to the transversal test area dimensions.

I know how difficult it is to edplain to other what one has in his head. For him all is clear but to transfer the ideas in a comprehensible writing it is some times a nightmare.

I do not know enough about fires to be absolute in my comments. I only think that the fire dimension is a problem may be for smaller fires the process can be OK. What I agree is the air flow problem since there are two perpendicular flows one for the lifting force and one for the counter wind action. Those flows can interact and this can be wuite easily analysed with a fluid simulation which will also allow an increase of the chances for a positive result. What is not present is the instrumentation for air velocity measurements aso. This is the reason I suggested the cooperation with a college laboratory. As far as I know Spain has good engineering schools and I am sure that a good presentation and even an offer for participation would permit a work with a broader investigation possibility. In general schools are interested to have such projects since they are challenging the students and allow as well demnds for finacial support. I know that the budget cuttings in Spain are quite drastic and it is not the best time but if one does not try..

There is also a possibility to ask for subventions from the EC but this should be done after applying for a patent. In the frame of atual fight for the green there are chnaces to get some thing. I would suggest a letter also to french authorities since same problem is present in south of France.

Gee I though this candle had been blown out already...

Let's turn the page

Like a raging wildfire, it has taken on a life of it's own.

I dunno why it keeps going...

It's a bit like that Bob Dylan song, "Blowin in the wind", just nevers seems to end...

bob who?

I see that there is people here worrying about the flow interferences in my machine.

As there is nothing better than a lousy but clear experiment, here you have one of my models in tethered flight. It is cristal clear that the flows of the main rotor, the 4 active side props and the 2 reaction props DO NOT practically interfere. The different flows procceed just as if they were alone.

Chorete

<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ib7wk-uDFo>

I'm sorry but tethered toys with electric motors do not come close to equaling complex turbine powered rotary wing flight in full scale real world conditions. Your video might convince the great unwashed that your aerodynamics are ok, but it will not convince those of us who have been around turbine helicopters for 40 years.

You really need to test your models under more realistic conditions. Your vertical lift machine will likely be above the cushion of ground effect (requiring a lot more power to hover), will have air breathing turbines (sensitive to hot air, low pressure and particulates), will be in a high density altitude environment (hot low pressure air), and will likely be subject to high levels of radiant heat.

There are reasons helicopters don't hover over or near fires, not very long at least.

Hooker

Here you can watch the lousiest video of them all.

It shows the cutting of a firestop in a very flammable forest using a machine with only ONE propeller.

This is possible using the propeller with extreme care about its possitioning. This means that in real firestop cutting, the pilot must be extremely good, and that a good team works in the ground quenching embers.

You MUST believe that the mosquito screen forest is heavily soaked in kerosene. But nevertheless it only catches fire in the prescribed band of forest, aproximately perpendicular to the prevailing WIND.

THE WIND blows to the left of the picture. And the machine is stopped much before extinction, just to save video size.

<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=97b5oCQmrvY>

Chorete

I wonder if I have been fired from the Forum, but my last two entries do not show up.

<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=97b5oCQmrvY>

A lousy but clearly explanatory video on how ONLY ONE propeller can cut a firestop though dense highly flammable forest.

You must believe that the artificial forest is fully soaked in kerosene, but only the desired portions take fire. The remaining forest is well protected by the combined flows of the propeller and he natural wind. Of course: A good efficient team of ground firemen should help at all times putting out embers.

We have here the helicopter equivalent of blowing out the candles on a birthday cake

how about a more high tech approach?

Link

Newswise - ANAHEIM, March 27, 2011 - A curtain of flame halts firefighters trying to rescue a family inside a burning home. One with a special backpack steps to the front, points a wand at the flame, and shoots a beam of electricity that opens a path through the flame for the others to pass and lead the family to safety.