Fire sprinkle system

Water and electricity don't mix .

I'm no expert but for power transformers, I believe other extinguisher types are more suitable. CO2 or Halon would be more appropriate, for example.

I'm not familiar with the properties of fire fighting foam but I don't think it's applicable here. I believe there's some water content in it.

Hello,

Thanks for suggestion but can it be use for cooling purpose.Because power transformers will be on higher load and needs cooling of main tank if ambeient temperarue is more.

regards,

Sudh.

Water sounds like a bad idea, particularly if it is to diminish the fire-fighting capacity of an installation in a context where the heat being dissipated, and therefore the local cooling need, is increasing.

Oils are commonly used around transformers because of their better characteristics in proximity to high voltages, currents and magnetic fields. So, if the need is not fire supression, as had perhaps been suggested by the wording of this post, rather it is to provide supplementary cooling then it is probably worth getting in touch with the original manufacturers of the transformer for an assessment and an update. Their expertise would give an added level of confidence in the projected longevity of the transformer.

No. Absolutely not. There are so many issues, well lets just say that it is not done in the industry.

This is the first time I have heard of someone seriously thinking of water cooling a power transformer with the fire suppression sprinkler system to allow the transformer to run at a higher load, but nether the transformer or the fire suppression system are designed for it.

If you really want to run the transformers at a higher load your best bet is likely going to be forced-air cooling. You may be able to retrofit fan cooling to the radiator fins but you are going to have to run this past the manufacturer of the transformers AND perform a fan and cooling design assessment. The last thing you want is to get hot spots in the transformer that will cause premature transformer winding failure. There are other considerations such as venting the hot air to keep the room ambient temperature down, cable temperature assessments, etc.

Changing the oil for a better type may be an option, but I don't think you will gain much benefit. It may be worth looking into also.

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"(Transformer) oil and water don't mix, especially if the oil is on fire"

Talk about misinformation!

You want to use your sprinkler system to cool your power transformers?

Sudh, when you ask a question, please include as much information as you can so that proper solutions can be given.

A fire sprinkler system is used for extinguishing fires. You are not allowed to use it for anything else! So forget about using it for cooling or anything else other than putting out fires.

Further, I still stick to my earlier post, water and electricity do not mix. You can use forced air cooling but not water cooling.

Hello

My dear friend

Your answer is the best one Sprinclers are only for Fire Fighting System

Well done Sir

H. I. Weiss

I can send you Pictures about

hiweng@013.net.il

Vulcan, you are right: Sprinklers are designed for fire work: big droplets that can reach the fire base with high volumes.

When you want to cool, you need less water and mostly fine droplets.

On transformers the used sprinklers are of a special type (should be) that can be used in oil fires. (no need for foam, as foam is only usefull in a spill fire or to cover the transformer for an adjacant fire)

Normally the transformer will be taken out of service as soon as this system starts.

Explain your boss that he need a second transformer to drive his airconditioning.

The fire fighting pump engine is also not build to run for hours each day that it is hot.

I just found this document about transformer installations

http://www.usbr.gov/power/data/fist/fist3_32/fist3-32.pdf

Read page 18:

Fire suppression water should NOT be discharged on an energized transformer, nor should it be used as a cooling method. Water contains contaminants that if used extensively, will damage transformer external components and possibly cause flashover. The transformer should automatically be de-energized prior to water being discharged.

I underlined the part about cooling for emphasis. This is a nice document. I've saved it and will be sending it to the electrical manager in our factory.

Nice that they need to write it down in an official document.

It proves that accountants are smart guy's, finding solutions where there are no other than investing.

I worked as sprinkler expert and these kind of questions are quite normal. We could hold them off but I'm sure that companies looking for work and with less knowledge and dignity do it.

Once we had a reclamation that every friday moring the fire engine started without reason. It turned out to be the housekeeper washing the bosses car.

Power transformers, (Liquid Cooled type), are often fan cooled.

This means added ventilation provisions if the installation is indoor.

Manufacturers offer 'kits` for their products that increase the rated load by specified amounts.

If your transformers are overloaded, a 'Rube Goldberg Fix` is risky .

Vulcan, you are correct - foam is mostly water with some proteins - the best are the blood proteins. We used a special foam nozzle to apply - it had a small hose you dropped into the foam can - 5-gallon plastic bucket with small hole for hose - venturi effect of water rushing through nozzle sucked the foam up and into the water stream. The hose had some sort of adjustment to increase or decrease the foam into the water stream - I think five gallons of protein covered a few hundred gallons of water.

The big crash rigs you see at airports do it with more finesse, but it is basically the same process. It's just that they could do it on the run - an Oshkosh rig could lay foam down a runway doing about 90 miles an hour, or so I've heard!

It is more appropriate to use extinguishing agents other than water in the vicinity of electrical equipment. "Halon" or chlorofluorocarbon materials are commonly used in these applications; carbon dioxide less so.

It might be worthwhile contacting fire protection specialists in this field as a next step. http://www.cannonfire.co.uk/products_suppression_pyrogen.htm (with the usual disclaimer).

Is that because of Global warming or because of the extreme cooling and the condensate formed as a result. The use of Chlorofluorocarbon materials should include a gas recovery system they can not be vented to atmosphere. As for cooling special oils are used. PCB's are ow on the en-danged species list.

No No No. only Co2 or Halide gas. No water absolutely none.

Power Stations in New South Wales, Australia are all fitted with sprinkler systems on main power transformers. At high voltages a fire trips out the protection equipment fairly quickly. I'm not sure if this is due to the ionisation of smoke/air mix or some other fault source.

I know of at least one instance when the sprinkler system at Liddell Power Station (4x 500MW) saved the rest of the station from burning.

In general I agree that pointing a fire hose at a transformer is not the brightest thing to do. The sprinkler system is always connected to the earth grid that goes under all the major transformers. If the sprinkler system does activate while the transformer is active there will be a large arc/fault that should blow the breaker and disconnect the transformer. The arc may take out a lump of the sprinkler system but with any luck the water will still be spraying in the right direction. There is also a large "Bund Wall" around these transformers to contain the water and any oil that may result from a ruptured transformer.

Well, I guess if you have a system that disconnects the transformer before you start spraying the water, it's okay.

But this post isn't about extinguishing a transformer fire it seems .

I have also had first hand experiance of a lage scale electrical fire up close and personel the fire fighters used up all the CO2 equipment and then just left it to cool down. It took several hours before they could get close enough to do any more.

Even with the power off they would not spray water any where near the fire. That was on a 415V three phase board. The reason being that it would wash away any evidence of arson or tampering. Also the cable even when disconnected could still hold a lethal charge. I guess out side in the open gas dishcharge is not practical and if nobody is likely to get hurt water may be a last resort.

No mencionas la potencia del transformador, yo trabajo con estabilizadores de 100 amperios a 220 voltios que da 22kVA y los enfrió con un simple ventilador, la regla básica es que si un transformador calienta tanto que no puedes sostener la mano sobre este, es que ya paso los 60 ºC, el aislante se deteriora y se reduce el tiempo de vida del transformador (tiempo aproximado de vida 20 años), esto implica que hay exceso de consumo de corriente, muchos equipos conectados a un mismo transformador.

Cuando se compra un transformador lo primero que debes de saber es a que potencia vas a trabajar, cual es tu proyección de ampliación de equipo usando este transformador y de ahí auméntale un factor del 30%, tu siguiente opción es ponerle un termistor a 90ºC que actué de fusible térmico y que apague al transformador, esto se pone en línea con un contactor. Y si así y todo se prende fuego, "que pasa por negligencia", el fuego hará que la termomagmética se desconecte al censar el corto circuito del rebobinado, pero cerciórate que esta apagada, no uses nada líquido, usa arena o tierra. Si has visto alguna vez la soldadura eléctrica ya tendrás una idea, el fuego eléctrico puede fácilmente alcanzar 50 centímetros de largo y es muy peligroso. Si no estas capacitado en este tipo de emergencias, desconecta la electricidad general, sal del lugar y llama a los bomberos.

Como dato adicional el aceite usado en los transformadores de alta (de 15,000 voltios a 110/220/440, etc.) es un aceite dieléctrico, se usa un equipo especial para eliminarle todo vestigio de agua en el aceite, si se incendia uno de estos corre, primero se prenden luego explosionan.

Dear Sir

You mean to use for Fire Figting Sys or for Forced cooling sys

you can use sprinklers only for Fire Figting System

i can send you some Pictures about

hiweng@013.net.il

Consult the NFPA (National Fire Protection Association) standards. There are too many people in this forum spouting off information without refering you to the proper documentation. Standards of many kinds are written to protect people, the environment and the equipment/materials we use.

Hello sir,

I Suggest the use of dry chemical automatic system or CO2 system .So many details needs to bring the best solution like if the equipment was in a close area or if its important to return on after the operation of the systme.

Regards

Normand Audet

Specail hazard consultant