Xantrex 1800 Watt Solar Package

Re: The installation guide is on line,

Why not post a link to it?

Sorry I have only been on the computer a short time and I do not know how to post a link. Xantrex Complete 1800 Watt Solar Package is the correct product......there is another #1800 product that is not this one.

You told us you purchased at Northern Tool catalog. If I search the catalog I find this: The NPower Complete, a Powerhub, Solar Panels, and Batteries (a Northern Tool Exclusive!) The inverter in the Northern Tool package is a Xantrex Powerhub 1800 (to which I provided a link in #3).

If this is incorrect, we are stuck until you can clear it up for us. What EXACTLY do you have?

Yup, this looks exactly like what I have. Thanks for adding the link!

Hope you can add info now that this is clear.

Sorry about that, Doorman posted one for me though.

No problem, thanks!

I don't want to try to answer your question on lightning as I'm not really an expert in that field, nor do I fully understand your question / situation.

I guess you have a house with a lot of steel in the structure? Maybe even steel framing (studs, joists, etc)? And you're worried that with a lightning strike and the bare wire used to ground the inverter that lightning may jump between the bare wire for grounding and the steel framing of the house, causing damage to things like wallboard?

Or, you're worried that lightning might cause the bare wire to burn / melt and disconnect from ground?

Or, your just worried about lightning and wonder if that bare grounding wire will cause any sort of problem being that you have a house with a lot of steel framing?

Yes, the house is built with load bearing steel studs, two story anchored to a concrete slab. Running the #3 ground wire along side the steel stud worries me. Arcing off from a close lightening strike could cause a house fire! Never thought of melting or disconnecting happening. The electrical wire running thru the house is all insulated. Wonder if this #3 wire comes insulated? I know earth to ground wire should be solid! And most all stranded wire is insulated, but can you get insulated solid wire?

Huron,

The ground wire from the solar panels needs to be bonded to the building steel frame at regular intervals. This will ensure that there is no potential difference between the bare wire and the metal frame (when there is lightning discharge) and thus no arcing. It is the arcing which leads to house fires.

If you use insulated wires, the required insulation level could be quite large considering the momentary voltage rise during lightning discharge is in kilo volts.

Does it answer your basic query to some extent at least!

Just out of curiosity, how do 4- 110W panels produce 1800W? last I checked 4x110=440... and 440 does not = 1800.

In any case, If you are using DC typical the ground and the - (negative) are the same thing... but I'm not sure if you have a signal line or something... heck, I really have no Idea what I'm talking about, but I had to comment on the 440W<1800W thing.

Output of the inverter is 1800W max. This does not seem to take into account internal losses of the inverter.

This is about enough for 15 hours of run time for a typical refrigerator... with NOTHING else operating. So about a day and a half, if you don't turn on a light bulb, or a radio, or the furnace fan, if you don't have a chest freezer, and if you unplug all of the parasite devices.

Here is the manual for the Xantrex PH1800.

Re: This is about enough for 15 hours of run time for a typical refrigerator... with NOTHING else operating. So about a day and a half,

So, have you switched to a metric day?

A refrigerator does not run 24/7.... 6 hours/day, or so, depending....

Although Doorman does not seem to be addressing that issue correctly, the inverter is rated at 1800 kVA which has nothing to do with the power in from the PV's. I'm not sure where the OP is, but if they get 6 hours of insolation they can produce 2.4 kVA from their PV's.... which is not much for a typical Western household, but is significant for a UPS and little daily power supplement.

I don't know about that 440 is not 1800 but what I do know is what the mfg is calling it.....maybe it has something to do with the inverter and the battery storage!

Right you are you don't know what you are talking about. And I'm a girl!

All that the solar panels do is collect energy!

110W solar panels is a mistake. Panels are measured in WATTS PEAK, not in W watts. It should be 110wp.

Watts peak does not refer to the output power but refers only to a laboratory test measurement, of maximum power (Peak) the panel can produce in a LABORATORY test unit.

Outside the laboratory the panel output depends on type of panel, angle of Sun, surface temperature, Air mass and a lot of other factors. Typical output per year, in HOT sunny climates will be - Crystalline pv gives 980 Kwh/kwp and Thin Film give 1,300 Kwh/kwp

Kilowatt hours Kwh

Kilowatt peak Kwp

A 100wp panel can produce say 50 watts for 1 hour a day, into a battery. Then you have 50 watt hours. If you have a 400w Inverter, you can use it for only 15 minutes before you kill the battery. So the 100wp panel does drive the 400w inverter. Of course you should NEVER use inverters with solar power systems.

Thin film has a higher output than Crystalline?

Up to......expandable to...1800W.

Output of a solar panel is energy, in Kilowatt hours.

Output of an Inverter is Power, in watts.

So if a 50 wp solar panel, puts 200 watt hours into the battery, then after battery losses of 30% you can get back 140 watt hours. That is 140 watts for 1 hour OR 280 watts for half an hour or 1,800 watts for 6 minutes. So you can only get 1,800 watts for a very short time and if you have a rainy day then it takes 2 days to charge up the battery for the next 6 minutes.

A thin Film panel will produce 30% more power than a Crystalline panel in HOT sunny climates because Thin film is NOT derated by HEAT, plus several other factors like shadow tolerance, production of power in low light or cloud, etc.. Crystalline has a negative temperature coefficient, so it loses average voltage - 0.05% per Degree Centigrade above 25C. (Surface temperature is 25C above Air Temperature) Which is about 30% loss of power. Laboratory test measurements go out the window when you take the panel out of the laboratory and put it in the real Sun.

Annual yield is the amount of power you actually PRODUCE per year and is the only measurement you should use. watts peak of a panel is not relevant to its Annual yield and many other factors determine its actual energy production. Watts peak measurement is to fool the suckers who don't know anything about solar panels. Always ask for the Annual Yield and get a guarantee on the Annual Yield to be produced.

The Charge Controller User's Manual is here.

A ground connection to the controller is neither supplied nor needed. Treat it as an in-line component, and (regarding earthing/grounding) bypass it.

In most systems AC ground, DC- and earth ground are all common. Ground the chassis of the charge controller the earth ground.

What you wrote is very confusing and can be dangerous. The neutral or 0V and ground conductors are usually connected together at one point only, where the earth connection meets them, the ground wire is an independent conductor for the rest of the distribution system.

The ground wire must not be used to carry any load! (other than normal leakage).

As for the installation discussed here, there are many ground connections shown on the equipment. Use them correctly.

Note that in this case, I don't know if the ground rod for the house can be used or if a supplementary one must be installed because of the potential for lightening strikes on the panels. Ask a competent local electrician or EE.

I did not address neutral/ground bonding in my response intentionally.

I have installed a lot of various inverters for on and off grid. A continuity test between AC ground and DC- will confirm if they are common in the inverter. If so, as I said, AC ground, DC-, and DC ground are common. I have installed Trace (pre-xantrex) inverters where DC- and AC ground are isolated, but that is not the norm with inverters.

As for neutral/ground bonding, nothing should change as they will still only be bonded at a single point.

Amend um: the PV array needs to be grounded separately from the DC- cable from the panels (chassis ground). They are still common but the array itself needs to be bound to earth ground.

Doorman's posting # 3 says it all regarding the 'Powerhub 1800 Installation guide".

Here's the crucial comment - direct from the guide and I quote;

" Audience

The PowerHub 1800 is an entry-level inverter system. This Guide is

intended for anyone who needs to plan for and install the PowerHub 1800.

Permanent installations should be done by certified technicians or

electricians. Installers should have adequate knowledge of national and

local electric code to ensure code-compliance by inspection from the local electric authority."

I think this says it all.

I see that NODODY has addressed the OP's first question, which may well help to understand the second question. an off-grid system is one in which the inverter is isolated from the power line until power is lost and either a mechanical switch or a contactor/relay switch the load from the power line to the inverter. the inverter does not attempt to synchronize the output AC with the power line. the output of the inverter has a ground connection, this and the array frame the only things that need to be (and should be) connected to the ground rod. This is typically done in the breaker box.

Sorry I am late in adding my 2 cents, but here goes.

1. a 110Watt solar panel will have a rated output of 110 watt under test conditions, however, if the panels do not have adequate spacing and cooling the effiency drops quickly. If you go to this NREL link and pick your state you can get an average of your PV output http://rredc.nrel.gov/solar/pubs/redbook/

2.There are a couple of things you can do for "'grounding" and lightning protection. I recommend you add 2 lightning arrestors, One at the panel and one at the charge controller here is a link for them http://www.affordable-solar.com/store/lightning-arrestors#s:custitem_manufacturer_list_field@asc@string,p:1

3. The 1800watt inverter is rated to handle 1800watts of energy, the 4-110watt panels would give you 440 watt of energy at peak sun, typical inefficiency will probably give you about 70% of that if your "inverter" has AC capabilities. You could save on the DC-AC conversion efficiency by using DC loads, but try to stay under 3% voltage drop. Also the lower the voltage the higher the current, larger wire, SAFETY.

Lastly, here is a handy picture from Outback, good system;

Re. 2 - lightning arrestors.

The charge controller - please refer back to #7 (or the link therein) - appears to be a Class 2 device (a double-insulated box with +/- in and +/- out - no earth/ground connection).

Your comment is appropriate for the panels and the "hub".

No, just put it in parallel with the positive and negative, in theory it would self sacrifice and save your charge controller and possibly the inverter.

But, like I have heard 10000-1000000 volts have already travelled that far, do you think you could stop it in a 1/4"