Energy saving with ElectroFlow

Google searches for "electroflow scam" and "powerkure scam" get quite a few hits. Some are pretty interesting reading.

But I suspect you already knew that. Is the phishing any good today?

I think I just heard a door slam.

All the obvious things have been done, haven't they?:-

• Nagging users to switch off.
• Low-energy lighting.
• Timeswitches
• Thermostatic controls on heating appliances.
• Room occupancy detection on the lighting
• Draught excluders on doors.
• All insulation in top condition and top thickness.
• Negotiation of the best tariff.
• etc.

If this was a genuine product instead of a scam, they would have independent test reports available instead of that page of faux testimonials. I'd bet that if you attempted to contact any of the 'authors' of said testimonials you would find that they are all non-existent and that the testimonails are all pure fabrications.

Dear All,

Thanks for your comments. I am bit confused, you mean to say that whatever their web site says are not true and it is not a genuine product?

Regards,

KRA

One way to find out is buy and see and then report to the forum.

There are (or could be) liability issues to describe a product as a scam. And I can't do that in any case, since I am not familiar with the product, nor have I tried to investigate the product.

You should be cautious. If you are not an electrical engineer who can investigate the product and their claims yourself, you should find someone who can before you invest any significant sum of money.

Or, negotiate an agreement where they provide and install the equipment at their cost, and you share the cost savings with them. But, that also requires the input of a good electrical engineer, and perhaps an accountant type as well, to make sure that the agreement considers all the appropriate points.

Just as a very dumb example, if your facility is a factory, and production decreases sometime after they install the equipment (because of external factors), the electrical usage will be less. They should not share in cost savings due to lowered production (or more efficient production, or change in product mix, or other things (suppose you replace motors with more efficient motors, or provide power factor correction capacitors--they should not share in those savings).

A contract like this should be for a fixed number of years.

Dear rhkramer,

Thank you very much for the advice.

Regards,

KRA

Dear Anonymous,

Very valued advice, thank you very much.

Rgds,

KRA.

KRA101,

Posting this late but i hope you have taken Anonymous's advice. I do have direct experience in evaluating Eletroflow and I can say it's a scam. I would be glad to provide you fuller details if you require.

Hi epower,

Thank you very much for your reply.

Yes, I would like to have more details if possible.

Hi kra101,

The electroflow system is nothing more than a reactor (inductor) capacitor bank and is a power factor correction scheme as rightly guessed by Anonymous Poster #1. This reactor-capacitor combination however, can and does provide some harmonics filtering depending on the value of the reactor chosen. A power factor correction scheme also does provide some energy savings but definitely not as high as claimed.

One of their claims is that the electroflow system does not consume real power (kW). Now if you have run a harmonics filter or reactor-capacitor bank before you will notice that they run real hot. This is energy being dissipated as heat and real power is consumed. Stating otherwise in my opinion is just not correct. No specifications and manuals are given for the system (have not sighted one so far) which shows that they have a lot to hide. Notice too that the the web site also treat the system as a blackbox and only extoll its virtue.

I have sighted an S&P for the system and is of the opinion that it is badly written by incorporating several disjointed things in one paragraph to make it easy to lose the thread of argument. Possibly some items are also irrelevant as the meaning is not explained. The methodology stated to be used for verifying the energy savings is very murky, short in details and not put in clear terms. Very high sounding name like Statistical Path Analysis is used. Very very little explanation is given, so much so that the whole thing can be incomprehensible even to trained person.

I have also sighted their report and as expected no workings are shown. A complex equation (in my opinion irrelevant) is given without proper explanation and only the end results are given. I have a lot more details and comments about their report but I'll leave this to later.

Hi KRA101,

I have been recommended to use ElectroFlow product. You mentioned having direct experience in evaluating it. Can you please share it with me? I'll appreciate.

Thanks.

Hi,

Sorry, I am not using it and don't have any experience.

Hi epower,

I have been recommended to use ElectroFlow product. You mentioned having direct experience in evaluating it. Can you please share it with me? I'll appreciate.

Thanks.

Dear Ananym,

I have direct experience in evaluating ElectroFlow system as a 3rd party and the energy savings is similar to that of a power factor correction capacitor bank ie in the region of 1 to 2% nothing more although they claim otherwise.

I have seen the inside of the product and it is just a reactor(inductor)-capacitor bank with a controller. The reactor is in series with the capacitor. Don't expect any detailed drawings/schematics, explanation, manuals from them. You won't get any at least not in my case. Even the reactor and capacitor values are not labelled!!

Since it is a reactor-capacitor combination there will be some harmonics absorption. The amount of harmonics absorbed in the L-C circuit will depend on the reactor and capacitor values.

I'm not sure what you want to know further. If you could be more specific in your question I'll be glad to share with you.

P/S Could not response to you earlier as I was on holiday.

This is how the inside of ElectroFlow looks like. Only one step of reactor-capacitor is shown. It can contain several steps depending on the size of the Main Switch Board it is connected to. The wing nut on the reactor allows the inductance to be varied somewhat and thus there can be a certain amount of tuning.

Dear epower,

Thank you very much for your reply and explanation.

Best.

The performance verification method for electroflow as excerpted is reproduced word for word below. Anyone can make head or tail out of it? Any comments?

ANNEXURE 'A'

Performance Verification

It is very important to establish a base for actual conditions, and parameters to be tested. Hence, the following facts should be used as guidelines for accurately verifying performance of any energy saving devices, including ElectroFlow™:

Rule # 1: That ElectroFlow™ is a passive system, and does not consume measurable real power (KW). This can easily be verified by actual measurements taken at ElectroFlow™ main breaker/disconnect switch.

Rule # 2: That so called "energy saving devices that connect in series" either alter normal load performance by interference, or adversely affecting system power quality; or both! As a result, their performance must be verified based on:

A. Load output/performance interference; such as: reduced motor speed, reduced light lumens, and so on.

B. Power quality interference; such as: reduced voltage, generated harmonics, increased distortion, and so on.

C. Fail-safe operation; since they connect in series, how trouble-free and responsive their bypass mechanism functions!

Rule # 3: ElectroFlow™ connects in parallel. As a result, it is guaranteed that the system is fail-safe. As concluded in Rule # 1 above, it is passive and does not consume measurable real power (KW). Hence, for the purpose of scientific evaluation, and the so-called "Apples-To-Apples" comparison of ElectroFlow™ "ON", and ElectroFlow™ "OFF" conditions. It is required to tabulate all of the pertinent dependent variables: Demand (KWD), and Usage (KWH), as well as all the independent variables: Hours Of Operation, Percentage Of Operation, Units Of Production, and Degree Hours.

Verification Method

1. Testing and measurements must be conducted using a three-phase power analyzer capable of data logging at a minimum rate of 128 samples per cycle, which equates to 7,680 times per second at 60 Hz, or 6,400 samples per second at 50 Hz. The three-phase variables to be measured, for the purpose of power quality, as well as energy savings, are: voltage, current, power factor, harmonics, Demand (KW), and Usage (KWH).

2. All of the three-phase values must be displayed per-minute, for several consecutive periods of 15 minutes "ON" and 15 minutes "OFF", in a spreadsheet format. This is practically recommended, because most of utility companies' Demand meters register Maximum monthly KW Demand, based on the highest sliding 15-minute interval in that month; which is subsequently billed to and paid by the customer. In addition, such short duration sampling and comparison, minimizes effects of other independent variables such as: load variation/load profile and change of weather, in such comparison testing.

3. The collected data such as Demand (KW), and/or Usage (KWH) should not be simply averaged, added, or subtracted; as means to analyze the variables. Because it does not take load variation/load profile, and LOAD FACTOR (Load Factor=(KWH x 100)/(KW x Hours)) into account. Such incorrect method completely ignores the "Apples-To-Apples" comparison of the data, as well as other pertinent variables. In order to correctly analyze effects of the "ON" and "OFF" conditions on Demand (KW), and/or Usage(KWH). Ideally, all of the independent variables such as: Hours Of Operation, Percentage Of Operation, Units Of Production, and Degree Hours should be kept constant.

You may then proceed to analyze Maximum Demand reduction from the test data of both conditions, where Usage (KWH) reduction can be calculated from the cumulative values of both conditions. In the case of Harmonitor sampling rate at 256 samples per cycle, at 60 HZ frequency, it samples 15,360 times per second. Hence, the per-minute samples will be 921,600. Subsequently, since the demand period is the integration of the area under the curve for that period, and it is designated as 15 minutes. The total samples for that period will be 13,824,000. Furthermore, total number of samples per hour, in order to determine the exact energy consumption based on the average value of every minute will be 55,296,000.

In order to accurately analyze data, for energy consumption Usage, the effects of the samples are cumulative, and based on the per-minute values. This means all of the samples of 921,600 will be cumulatively averaged and added to provide a number that represents the actual usage for that minute. Subsequently, the demand interval is calculated based on the same principal, but for the fifteen-minute integration of those values under the curve. Since the load factor calculation is: Load Factor = (Kwh x 100)/(KwD x Hours of operation). The actual number of samples calculated for one minute intervals, then the operating period will be determined based on one minute. In addition, since the energy consumption is based on the Kwh, which it simply means Kw times the time.

Hence, each per-minute sample of the consumption will have to be cumulatively added to accurately sum the energy usage in one hour. For that purpose, because the selected period of the test is based on the fifteen minutes "ON" and fifteen minutes "OFF", comprises of one set of the test. It is understood that the load is variable, even on the per-minute basis, which for the sake of "Apples-To- Apples" comparison load factor values of per-minute basis need to be calculated and plotted with respect to time and order of the samples taken. Subsequently, the 98% confidence level for linear/non-linear regression analysis needs to be applied for both conditions for accuracy.

Following that, the area between the two lines will be the area of the energy consumption savings for that period. This means, where ever the scatter points on the graph are positioned outside of the 98% range, those points will be replaced by the mean average values, which better represent the steady state running-load conditions, and not a sudden change such as the inrush current or starting torque magnitudes. Similarly, the effects on the demand can be determined using the same methodology. If the annual load profile of the facility is assumed to be the same as that of the monitored period for the same month. The annual projected savings will then be calculated based on the facility's load profile for a year.

Similar analysis may be performed in order to accurately calculate the demand verification as well. In an event, if one or more of the independent variables such as: Hours Of Operation, Percentage Of Operation, Units Of Production, and Degree Hours may not be kept constant; as dictated by the load. The most accurate method is the correct use of a spreadsheet software, or a statistical software such as Statistical Path Analysis (SPA), SPSS, or SAS. Use of one of these software allows accurate comparison of Demand (KW), and/or Usage (KWH) with respect to the above mentioned independent variables; using linear/non-linear regression method. This facilitates pro-rated analyses of the load variation/load profile based on the per-minute load factor, to accurately determine demand and/or energy savings; even when the load is fluctuating in a rapidly variable load profile. Such data is then compared with the base load profile previously measured and documented. For this purpose, the SPA software is commonly used to evaluate ElectroFlow™ saving effects.

End

Thank you epower for sharing actual data. Your question - "can anyone make heads or tails of it" was followed by a resounding cricket chorus. Unfortunately most of the answers to this thread resulted only in the exposition of the poster's ignorance (which they ironically freely admit) and lost revenue for the OP. Let's go back to fundamentals - do you guys believe in science? How about innovation? Do you think the two can be joined to beneficial outcome? Okay now (big step for some of you) do you believe knowledge can overcome ignorance? By the way, slanderers should have to hire attorneys. It's only right and proper. ElectroFlow is built on sound science and has a 30+ track record of actual dollars and cents savings for some of the largest multi-national companies in the world. Go tell them it's a scam.