Previous in Forum: Modern Solar Heat Collectors, What Happens If the Energy is Not Used?   Next in Forum: Installation of Solar System
Close
Close
Close
13 comments
Rate Comments: Nested
Commentator

Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Johannesburg, South Africa
Posts: 72
Good Answers: 3

Lightening Energy Spectrum

05/09/2011 1:36 AM

It is known fact that old incendiary light globes create lots of heat, new energy efficient light globes should generate less heat and more light. Does anyone know what portion of energy consumed by light globes (example rating of 50W) is used for generation of heat in contrast to the generation of visible light?

Similar question would apply in solar industry, out of solar radiation that is received on Earth (+-1000W/m2) what proportion is made up by visible light and what proportion by heat (infrared spectrum?)?

Register to Reply
Interested in this topic? By joining CR4 you can "subscribe" to
this discussion and receive notification when new comments are added.

Good Answers:

These comments received enough positive votes to make them "good answers".
Guru
United Kingdom - Member - Indeterminate Engineering Fields - Control Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: In the bothy, 7 chains down the line from Dodman's Lane level crossing, in the nation formerly known as Great Britain. Kettle's on.
Posts: 32175
Good Answers: 839
#1

Re: Lightening energy spectrum

05/09/2011 5:51 AM

All energy and matter decays to heat - eventually. In 10100 years, there will be nothing else left.

__________________
"Did you get my e-mail?" - "The biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place" - George Bernard Shaw, 1856
Register to Reply Score 2 for Off Topic
2
Guru
Engineering Fields - Electrical Engineering - Analog and Digital Circuit Design Engineering Fields - Electromechanical Engineering - Transformers, Motors & Drives, EM Launchers Engineering Fields - Engineering Physics - Applied Electrical, Optical, and Mechanical

Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: NY
Posts: 1207
Good Answers: 119
#2

Re: Lightening Energy Spectrum

05/09/2011 10:04 AM

Incandescent bulbs are about 3% efficient at converting electrical energy into visible light. The rest is heat.

Incandescent light bulb Efficiency


This wiki graphic shows answer to question #2

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Solar_Spectrum.png

Register to Reply Good Answer (Score 2)
2
Guru
Engineering Fields - Optical Engineering - Member Engineering Fields - Engineering Physics - Member Engineering Fields - Systems Engineering - Member

Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Trantor
Posts: 5363
Good Answers: 647
#3
In reply to #2

Re: Lightening Energy Spectrum

05/09/2011 11:57 AM

mjb1962853 wrote:

Incandescent bulbs are about 3% efficient at converting electrical energy into visible light. The rest is heat.

I realize this is a quote from Wikipedia, but it mis-interprets what the article says. Of the energy an incandescent light bulb consumes, about 10% to 15% is emitted as visible light, not 3%. [Whereas about 85% to 90% is emitted as heat.] (I calculated 15% using my spectral analysis program; Wiki says 10%). The '3%' figure is the luminous efficacy compared to a theoretically perfect emitter that emits at exactly 555 nm, where the eye's spectral response is at it's maximum -- but there is no such emitter. This is merely a figure-of-merit used for comparing different types of lighting.

The visible portion of the Sun's energy that reaches Earth is about 54% visible light, around 40 to 45% is longer wavelength radiation; the rest is shorter wavelength radiation.

For fluorescent and LED lamps, the percentage that is visible light vs other forms of energy depends on the spectrum or color temperature of the lamp and the efficiency of the power supply that drives the lamp. Since a lot of the power for these types of lamps is used in the power supply, it's not possible to pick a value that is good for all lamps of these types.

__________________
Whiskey, women -- and astrophysics. Because sometimes a problem can't be solved with just whiskey and women.
Register to Reply Good Answer (Score 2)
Commentator

Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Johannesburg, South Africa
Posts: 72
Good Answers: 3
#4
In reply to #3

Re: Lightening Energy Spectrum

05/09/2011 2:15 PM

In solar industry maximum solar radiation received on the surface of the Earth is estimated to be 800W - 1000W per m2. If we use value of 1000W/m2 and your answer of 54% being visible light, which would indicate that every m2 of surface receive visible light of 540W.

To produce same amount of visible light, incandescent bulbs that emit 10% of consumed power as light would need to be 5400W in power.

Does that seem plausible?

Register to Reply
Guru
Engineering Fields - Optical Engineering - Member Engineering Fields - Engineering Physics - Member Engineering Fields - Systems Engineering - Member

Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Trantor
Posts: 5363
Good Answers: 647
#5
In reply to #4

Re: Lightening Energy Spectrum

05/09/2011 3:04 PM

Yes, very. I've used a 'Sun Gun' made by Osram that was rated at 1000 watts, which produced a focused beam of incandescent light over a circle less than 1 foot in diameter. This lamp more-or-less re-created the luminous intensity of the Sun. A more efficient arrangement of lamps to light an area of 1 square meter could probably be done with 5400 Watts.

__________________
Whiskey, women -- and astrophysics. Because sometimes a problem can't be solved with just whiskey and women.
Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 1753
Good Answers: 59
#6
In reply to #4

Re: Lightening Energy Spectrum

05/09/2011 10:48 PM

The Earth's reception of the Sun's energy is known to the last Watt/metersquare. The part reaching the surface, the same. All known within a small fraction of a %. Do not quote to me industry PR.

CR4 ADMIN: Modified Post

Abuse/Attack: This post was modified because it was an attack on another user. Please review the CR4 Site FAQ and the CR4 Rules of Conduct.

Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Guru
Panama - Member - New Member Hobbies - CNC - New Member Engineering Fields - Marine Engineering - New Member Engineering Fields - Retired Engineers / Mentors - New Member

Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Panama
Posts: 4273
Good Answers: 213
#7
In reply to #4

Re: Lightening Energy Spectrum

05/10/2011 12:06 AM

I'm not sure where your "800W - 1000W per m2" figure comes from- a more common figure is on the order of 300 W/m², at the earth's surface at the equator- less at higher latitudes (more like 100 W/m² in England, for example).

Register to Reply
Commentator

Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Johannesburg, South Africa
Posts: 72
Good Answers: 3
#8
In reply to #7

Re: Lightening Energy Spectrum

05/10/2011 3:21 AM

The Sun's rays are attenuated as they pass though the atmosphere, thus reducing the insolation at the Earth's surface to approximately 1,000 watts per square meter for a surface perpendicular to the Sun's rays at sea level on a clear day.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insolation

Register to Reply
Guru
Panama - Member - New Member Hobbies - CNC - New Member Engineering Fields - Marine Engineering - New Member Engineering Fields - Retired Engineers / Mentors - New Member

Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Panama
Posts: 4273
Good Answers: 213
#9
In reply to #8

Re: Lightening Energy Spectrum

05/10/2011 9:40 AM

Quoting from your reference:

The actual figure varies with the Sun angle at different times of year, according to the distance the sunlight travels through the air, and depending on the extent of atmospheric haze and cloud cover. Ignoring clouds, the average insolation for the Earth is approximately 250 watts per square meter (6 (kW·h/m2)/day), taking into account the lower radiation intensity in early morning and evening, and its near-absence at night.

The same article mentions the 1000 W/m² figure, but read closely- "the average insolation for the Earth is approximately 250 watts per square meter".

Other sources are more generous with this number, citing 300 W/m² (if you happen to be close to the equator). Your reference also explains the effect of latitude on the actual insolation at a particular location, and the illustrations on the same wiki page provide good information for insolation for various locations.

Register to Reply
Guru
Engineering Fields - Power Engineering - New Member

Join Date: May 2007
Location: NYC metropolitan area.
Posts: 3230
Good Answers: 444
#10
In reply to #9

Re: Lightening Energy Spectrum

05/10/2011 11:29 AM

Taking this divergent thread one step closer to the actual answer, let us not forget that unless there is some form of tracking involved then the actual amount collected by, as opposed to incident to, the collector surface will be a fraction of what passes through the atmosphere. Here's the next paragraph in the wikipedia article:

When calculating the output of, for example, a photovoltaic panel, the angle of the sun relative to the panel needs to be taken into account as well as the insolation. (The insolation, taking into account the attenuation of the atmosphere, should be multiplied by the cosine of the angle between the normal to the panel and the direction of the sun from it).

I can't believe that this is still a source of confusion.

__________________
“Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.” Ben Franklin.
Register to Reply
Guru
Panama - Member - New Member Hobbies - CNC - New Member Engineering Fields - Marine Engineering - New Member Engineering Fields - Retired Engineers / Mentors - New Member

Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Panama
Posts: 4273
Good Answers: 213
#11
In reply to #10

Re: Lightening Energy Spectrum

05/10/2011 11:45 AM

A major problem is soting out the real from the wishes on the Internet. With the Internet, if you don't like the answer you first come up with, you can search further and find additional information that contradicts the original. Keep going, till you find the answer you want. That's why people still believe in Over Unity...

Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Guru
Engineering Fields - Electrical Engineering - Analog and Digital Circuit Design Engineering Fields - Electromechanical Engineering - Transformers, Motors & Drives, EM Launchers Engineering Fields - Engineering Physics - Applied Electrical, Optical, and Mechanical

Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: NY
Posts: 1207
Good Answers: 119
#13
In reply to #3

Re: Lightening Energy Spectrum

05/31/2011 12:14 PM

Did you include conduction and convection heat loss along with the radiated heat loss for an incandescent bulb?

I think you've mixed up the numbers for efficiency and efficacy. The wiki text is somewhat ambiguous, but the table data (table1 and table2) clearly shows <3 [%] for luminous efficiency and ~15 [lumen/watt] for luminous efficacy. Although percentage is dimensionless, it is important to keep track of units during these types of comparisons.

Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Izmir, Turkey
Posts: 2142
Good Answers: 31
#12

Re: Lightening Energy Spectrum

05/16/2011 1:15 AM

The average insolation figure must be from pole to pole.

Yesterday (15 may 11) insolation at my home in Izmir, Turkey was 7,564 watts/m2 over a 15 hour period - with about 85% of that being useful for solar panels in a 9 hour period.

Register to Reply
Register to Reply 13 comments

Good Answers:

These comments received enough positive votes to make them "good answers".
Copy to Clipboard

Users who posted comments:

cwarner7_11 (3); leveles (1); mikespike (2); mjb1962853 (2); PWSlack (1); RAMConsult (1); russ123 (1); Usbport (2)

Previous in Forum: Modern Solar Heat Collectors, What Happens If the Energy is Not Used?   Next in Forum: Installation of Solar System

Advertisement