Previous in Forum: Weighing Scale   Next in Forum: Feedback and Feedforward Control
Close
Close
Close
15 comments
Rate Comments: Nested
Member

Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 7

How to Compensate for Asymmetric Flow in a Square Duct?

06/11/2011 7:27 PM

I am trying to design/install/eval/validate a sensor so that the installed accuracy is at least +/- 5% (would like +/-3%) in a square duct. I have less than the normal L/D availble. I have a single point FCI thermal mass meter, but would be willing to buy a new multipoint meter, if it is unlikely to work.

So far I haven't found data validated L/D requirements for flow meters mounted in rectangular ducts for my complex geometry (details below). I've also had no luck finding validated rectangular duct data on converting a highly asymmetric flow profile to a flatter profile, except for material on wind tunnels. [They use and antiswirl (honeycomb or tubes) screens (flattening) AND a specially designed converging section.]

I will admit my experience is with instruments in circular ducts/pipes but given the data and practices of AGA and ISA, I wonder if the L/D requirements Vs the achieved accuracy quoted for multipoint arrays in rectangular ducting are too optimistic. IE - Ebtron meter.

I've Googled & lit searched till my eyes have glazed over. If someone can direct me to literature with real data, or a referral to a rectangular duct flow expert (wind tunnels?), I would be grateful.

Lastly, it has occurred to me that if I used elbows with turning vanes, would I consider the total straight run as being nearly the same as one straight run? I imagine that the flow out of the elbows would be fingers of flow, but less likely to be skewed to the wall. Any idea how poor an approximation that is?

Thanks in advance for your help

Gary

Background:

I performed PITOT traverses @ the meter location for the current configuration using the T-rule:

-- Centrifugal blower (side outlet @ bottom elevation, aka arrangement 1)

-- a divergent section (~8 deg half angle),

-- a straight section 6D (equiv) of 18x18 duct (meter 2.4D upstream 3.5 D downstream)

-- a double elbow section. The radius elbows (R=1) form a "U" w/ 1.5D straight run between them, which directs the duct back under the elevated blower

-- a final straight section of 6D before I enter the process equipment

Five sets of 5x5 PITOT traverses, at different flow meter readings, established that the profile at the current meter location is highly inconsistent. Sometimes flow hugged the duct so tightly the traverse (per the equal area method) misses the highest flow against the wall. Other times I see the velocity is relatively flat along one axis and parabolic along the other axis.

The vendor for the thermal "mass" meter (FCI) and a competitor (Kurtz) both agree the current location is a tough place for a meter. They think moving it to the last straight section and calibration from Pitot traverse data is more than adequate to make a single point meter accurate. However my Pitot traverse makes me believe they trivialize the impact of square/rectangular duct geometry, especially in light of the fact both would recommend installing flow conditioners to reach rated accuracy, if it were circular duct. Would think that HVAC vendors are more realistic by providing a "station" which incorporates some flow conditioning or multipoint like Ebtron, but so far cannot find data to back up their claims.

Even with the sensor in final straight run, I fear that the skewed flow, the short straight runs and the double elbow will generate a profile too inconsistent to establish a known accuracy, without some other mechanical change.

Register to Reply
Interested in this topic? By joining CR4 you can "subscribe" to
this discussion and receive notification when new comments are added.

Good Answers:

These comments received enough positive votes to make them "good answers".

"Almost" Good Answers:

Check out these comments that don't yet have enough votes to be "official" good answers and, if you agree with them, vote them!
Power-User
India - Member - Justin Anto Engineering Fields - Electrical Engineering - Marks never made me laugh, but good memories did

Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Thrissur, Kerala, India
Posts: 177
Good Answers: 3
#1

Re: How to Compensate for Asymmetric Flow in a Square Duct?

06/12/2011 1:17 AM

Whether it is for gas or liquid

__________________
If you can't find a way, make one........
Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 1056
Good Answers: 88
#2

Re: How to Compensate for Asymmetric Flow in a Square Duct?

06/12/2011 11:16 AM

In similar situations (that you have to linearize a problematically unlinear signal) I've used A/D conversion, manipulated data to my needs (10 bit data has .1% error threshold) and then back to analog. A single low-end microcontroller with at least 3 A/D channels (the second to sample output and pump to it with a RC network from a digital output so to eliminate the need for separate D/A and the 3rd to get fluid temp if you need mass measurement also) can do the trick. Cost is generally moderate. Of course you 'll need some reference fixture to calibrate the whole thing. Just an idea. S.M.

__________________
Life is complex. It has a real part and an imaginary part.
Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 1056
Good Answers: 88
#12
In reply to #2

Re: How to Compensate for Asymmetric Flow in a Square Duct?

06/13/2011 2:37 PM

And to make my post a little more comprehensible, the only condition the position of your (single) flow sensor must meet for my proposal to work, is that the sensor output is monotonic to the fluid flow. S.M.

__________________
Life is complex. It has a real part and an imaginary part.
Register to Reply
2
Guru

Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 669
Good Answers: 176
#3

Re: How to Compensate for Asymmetric Flow in a Square Duct?

06/12/2011 2:32 PM

I wondered about an alternative technology, the averaging pitot tube, because I've seen two units inserted into a duct at right angles to the other (one through the top, one through the side). However, the averaging pitot tube averages pressure, not velocity, which appears to be the issue in your case.

This paper
concludes that "although an averaging Pitot tube does accurately measure the average stagnation and dynamic pressure, errors in the average of the velocity or volumetric flux (which are over-predicted) can be significant if large velocity gradients are present" so averaging pitot tubes are not an answer.

So it brings into question claims, like ABB's, that since "the upstream impact pressure signal is not biased by the pressure at a sensing port next to the output point, the meter is less susceptible to the effects of non-ideal upstream pipe work configurations". Do you have enough control over the source flow to profile at different rates/loads (whatever produces a flow change) to create a profile with the existing unit and then do a look-up table correction?

Register to Reply Good Answer (Score 2)
Member

Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 7
#7
In reply to #3

Re: How to Compensate for Asymmetric Flow in a Square Duct?

06/13/2011 10:03 AM

The original location was really squirrelly. The new location is 4d downstream of the second elbow so I may be able to do the look-up table if the profile is consistant. (Re is 5x10^6 at 3200 ft/minN2) (We try to calibrate today.) I think calibration at the new location has a better chance of working. The first straight run is 6d, which is close to the point that the blower profile should have smoothed out, before hitting the elbow.

If the profile is still variable, I'll take my best guess after getting everyone's input. I'll post what we do and the results.

Register to Reply
3
Power-User

Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Center of the Known Industrial Universe - TUGGERAH 2259 - Australia
Posts: 259
Good Answers: 52
#4

Re: How to Compensate for Asymmetric Flow in a Square Duct?

06/12/2011 10:54 PM

I fear there are two difficulties:
(1) "the profile at the current meter location is highly inconsistent" as you describe it,
and
(2) the profile is an unknown even if it were consistent at the sensor.

If you can empirically discover a consistent location, you'd have (1) of the way, possibly even without any flow conditioning.

As for (2), not knowing if the temperature, pressure and medium would permit, let me report that I have successfully calibrated air flowmeters by falling back to first principles. Volume per unit time. Time is easy - use a stopwatch. Volume? I used polyethylene layflat tubing as a flow receiver, with the distant end taped shut. You know the flat width, which doubled is the circumference when inflated, hence calculate the cross sectional area. You know the length you have laid down, so now you know the absolute volume.

When the layflat tubing goes taut it's a very visible prompt to click the stopwatch. If you want the equivalent flow units at atmospheric pressure, this method is really quite elegant, after the onlooker laughter dies down.

Mark Bingham
Relativity PL

Register to Reply Good Answer (Score 3)
Member

Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 7
#8
In reply to #4

Re: How to Compensate for Asymmetric Flow in a Square Duct?

06/13/2011 10:07 AM

The volume being moved is 7200 CFM, which may make direct volume measurement impractical.

Register to Reply
Commentator

Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Western flank of the Pennines in Lancashire England
Posts: 93
Good Answers: 8
#5

Re: How to Compensate for Asymmetric Flow in a Square Duct?

06/13/2011 5:26 AM

What is the geometry of the inlet to the fan? Does the fun draw from the process or the room? If from the room can you put the necessary straight length of round duct in?

Register to Reply
Member

Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 7
#9
In reply to #5

Re: How to Compensate for Asymmetric Flow in a Square Duct?

06/13/2011 10:26 AM

The flow is a loop.

The process is blower--> heater--> dryer--> filter--> cooler and back to the blower. All of the duct is 18x18 square. None of the duct has a decent straight run.

The connection between the cooler is neither a bell, a duct straight run nor plenum. It is a sharply converging transition, w/ half angle of 80 deg, so it is not a suitable location either.

Register to Reply
Guru
United Kingdom - Member - Indeterminate Engineering Fields - Control Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: In the bothy, 7 chains down the line from Dodman's Lane level crossing, in the nation formerly known as Great Britain. Kettle's on.
Posts: 32175
Good Answers: 839
#6

Re: How to Compensate for Asymmetric Flow in a Square Duct?

06/13/2011 9:47 AM

How big is the duct and what is the Reynolds Number in the duct?

__________________
"Did you get my e-mail?" - "The biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place" - George Bernard Shaw, 1856
Register to Reply
Member

Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 7
#10
In reply to #6

Re: How to Compensate for Asymmetric Flow in a Square Duct?

06/13/2011 10:41 AM

The duct is 18"x18" & Re is ~ 6.2 x 10^5 (~ 7100 acfm, N2 w/ 3% air, 55 F dew point, 10" wc static pr.)

Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 1053
Good Answers: 110
#11

Re: How to Compensate for Asymmetric Flow in a Square Duct?

06/13/2011 1:19 PM

I wonder if there might be a section of duct that, taken in total, can serve as a consistent restriction. This would assume that this duct section remains relatively clean. Then static ports upstream and downstream could measure a differential across this "restriction".

A temperature probe (or a few) with some thermal mass (or processing) to damp out local temperature variations temperature variations could be used for temperature corrections.

Then the flow would be calculated from pressure drop corrected for temperature. My theory here is that the static pressure (especially in the boundary layer) would be less sensitive to duct turbulence. (I could be completely full of it, however.)

In any event, I think an empirical approach would have to be used (with the solution perhaps including long term averaging from a group of pitot tubes, etc. ) In wind tunnels flow straightening is essential -- and for similar reasons it might be essential for your purpose too.

Other possibilities:

Measuring fan motor electrical power?

Heated-wire mass airflow sensors in a grid pattern? (four vertical wires, four horizontal, etc)

Measure drag on a grid (a piece of honeycomb that spans the entire duct, for example)

__________________
Think big. Drive small.
Register to Reply Score 1 for Good Answer
Member

Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 7
#13
In reply to #11

Re: How to Compensate for Asymmetric Flow in a Square Duct?

06/13/2011 2:42 PM

I considered motor power, but think it would be a relative indication. As I expected, I was unable to get the developed pressure Vs flow rate from the blower curve to match a traversed flow. The blower is not ducted in a way that I can apply a known SEF to the blower curve. (Service Effect Factor - a derating of the blower published by AMCA).

Interesting idea to do the measuring around a "restriction" but doesn't that suffer from the same issue of flow profile and inlet/outlet straight runs? I imagine that is true even for an elbow meter. Also does anyone do gas proving at such low dp, to "prove" to some standard (NIST?)? I couldn't add much permanent pressure drop or it changes the blower requirements.

Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 1053
Good Answers: 110
#14
In reply to #13

Re: How to Compensate for Asymmetric Flow in a Square Duct?

06/14/2011 1:13 PM

I considered motor power, but think it would be a relative indication.

Definitely. In most of these suggestions I have been thinking that the actual flow would need to be measured by another method (that could required some disassembly, insertion of flow straighteners, turbines, etc). Then the process control measurement method would be calibrated against this flow determination.

Does the total flow (as averaged from the individual flows from a 5x5 matrix) remain constant, or does even that seem to vary?

__________________
Think big. Drive small.
Register to Reply
Member

Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 7
#15
In reply to #14

Re: How to Compensate for Asymmetric Flow in a Square Duct?

06/14/2011 4:25 PM

Not sure how to answer your question. At steady state (same ~ flow) two sets of traverses (meter in the first straight run near the blower) gave essentially the same answer, however the traverses were performed without moving the system flow away and back to the same operating point.

Plotting the Pitot flow Vs the thermal dispersion flowmeter, did NOT produce a reasonably straight line for a set of 5 data points. Inspection showed the profiles could be grouped, as skewed or nearly fully developed & symmetrical. plotting the profiles that were similar generated two nearly parallel lines. Since the thermal dispersion meter is a single point thermal dispersion meter, I could not see how I could approach 5% accuracy if the profiles depend on how steady state was approached.

As a result I have now moved the flow meter away from the blower, which is the original disturbance, but I still am too close to a double elbow to meet normal L/D guidelines. so I cannot claim fully developed

Currently I'm working through new Pitot calibration data with the meter in the straight run downstream of the elbows (no flow straighteners). This time the Pitot taps are on top, allowing me to extend the grid to have two more data points in the vertical, to assess what is happening above and below the normal 5x5 grid. (e.g. sampling closer to the top and bottom walls)

With the meter in the new location, the profiles are more consistent, but the profiles are still skewed to the bottom. The extra data point confirmed that the 5th grid point is the peak flow. I can't say whether this was true in the first data set, since the taps were oriented horizontally.

Register to Reply
Register to Reply 15 comments

Good Answers:

These comments received enough positive votes to make them "good answers".

"Almost" Good Answers:

Check out these comments that don't yet have enough votes to be "official" good answers and, if you agree with them, vote them!
Copy to Clipboard

Users who posted comments:

Gasman (1); hollerg (6); Iris (1); justinanto1987 (1); K_Fry (2); PWSlack (1); Relativity PL (1); SimpleMind (2)

Previous in Forum: Weighing Scale   Next in Forum: Feedback and Feedforward Control
You might be interested in: Gas Flow Meters, Air Velocity Flow Sensors, Flow Meters

Advertisement