Previous in Forum: Concrete Paving Blocks   Next in Forum: Early Work Activity
Close
Close
Close
14 comments
Rate Comments: Nested
Guru

Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: 44.56024"N 15.307971E
Posts: 8277
Good Answers: 270

Ground Source Heat Pump

06/28/2011 8:11 AM

I need help calculating the heat storage/sink capacity of a domestic well.The well is tiled with a 24" inside diameter concrete tile, surrounded by a 1 foot thick gravel layer, which is in turn surrounded by dense gray clay soil which is kept wet by contact with the standing water column in the well.The water column is 37 feet deep.The total well depth is 51 feet, meaning there is 18 feet of tile above the water line.The top 18 feet is surrounded by a concrete cap of 1 foot thickness.The gravel layer is flooded by the water column.

The water capacity of the well is approximately 750 gallons,the thermal capacity of which is easy to figure, but the transfer of heat from the water into the surrounding media is more complicated, involving transfer thru the concrete, flooded gravel and wet clay.

The flow through the well is low, around 2GPM, while maintaining 37 ft positive head.

I am considering using this for a heat pump exchanger.

Any help you can give me on this will be greatly appreciated.

__________________
"A man never stands so tall as when he stoops to help a child." "Never argue with a stupid person.They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience" "To create an apple pie from scratch, first you must create a universe"
Register to Reply
Interested in this topic? By joining CR4 you can "subscribe" to
this discussion and receive notification when new comments are added.
Guru
India - Member - New Member Engineering Fields - Electromechanical Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: India, 200 Km. North of Delhi.
Posts: 1393
Good Answers: 53
#1

Re: Ground Source Heat Pump

06/28/2011 8:25 AM

Don't have any theoretical way but, What do you think about making a small tank with same material but with dimensions 1foot= 1mm and doing it empirically?

Register to Reply
Guru
United Kingdom - Member - Indeterminate Engineering Fields - Control Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: In the bothy, 7 chains down the line from Dodman's Lane level crossing, in the nation formerly known as Great Britain. Kettle's on.
Posts: 32175
Good Answers: 839
#2

Re: Ground Source Heat Pump

06/28/2011 8:38 AM

If the scheme goes ahead, bang goes the opportunity of using the structure as a well; it becomes a sump. The reason is that increasing its temperature causes all sorts of biological activity to increase, rendering the water practically useless for drinking.

__________________
"Did you get my e-mail?" - "The biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place" - George Bernard Shaw, 1856
Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: 44.56024"N 15.307971E
Posts: 8277
Good Answers: 270
#4
In reply to #2

Re: Ground Source Heat Pump

06/28/2011 9:43 AM

The well will not be used for potable water supply,only for occasional lawn watering.

__________________
"A man never stands so tall as when he stoops to help a child." "Never argue with a stupid person.They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience" "To create an apple pie from scratch, first you must create a universe"
Register to Reply
Guru
United Kingdom - Member - Indeterminate Engineering Fields - Control Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: In the bothy, 7 chains down the line from Dodman's Lane level crossing, in the nation formerly known as Great Britain. Kettle's on.
Posts: 32175
Good Answers: 839
#5
In reply to #4

Re: Ground Source Heat Pump

06/28/2011 9:56 AM

OK!

__________________
"Did you get my e-mail?" - "The biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place" - George Bernard Shaw, 1856
Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: 1° North Singapore
Posts: 568
Good Answers: 17
#3

Re: Ground Source Heat Pump

06/28/2011 8:52 AM

I doubt it is a good storage of heat. Concrete and gravel is not good conductor, but they are neither good insulator. Because of the surface is so large, you will have very high loss, hardly a storage for heat.

A closed tank surrounded on six sides by air gap is a better choice. Aslo, make the internal surface very shiny. it is a themo flask.

__________________
Sharing knowledge is one thing that defies basic arithmetic logic --- the more you share, the more you get!
Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: 44.56024"N 15.307971E
Posts: 8277
Good Answers: 270
#6
In reply to #3

Re: Ground Source Heat Pump

06/28/2011 9:57 AM

Ground source heat pumps extract heat from the ground because it is much more efficient than extracting it from air.The ground temperature at below 6 feet is around 55 F year round.I do not expect it to act as a thermos for storing and holding heat,but merely to act as a heat sink for summer use, and a heat source for winter use.The input heat will be absorbed by the surrounding earth.I just need to know the amount of heat the surrounding earth can absorb; basically the heat throughput of the well.

I have read of heat pumps using 2 or more wells, with a coil of pipe embedded in Bentonite, with water circulating thru them and through a isolation heat exchanger for the freon-to water heat transfer.

When calculating thermal conductivity and thermal mass of materials in series, is it a simple additive function?;Water+concrete+gravel+clay?

__________________
"A man never stands so tall as when he stoops to help a child." "Never argue with a stupid person.They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience" "To create an apple pie from scratch, first you must create a universe"
Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Izmir, Turkey
Posts: 2142
Good Answers: 31
#8
In reply to #6

Re: Ground Source Heat Pump

06/28/2011 11:47 AM

The ground temperature remaining a constant 55° F is a myth that people maintain. You can find the approximate temperature for your location on the net.

Calculating the ability of the well to disperse/collect the heat is quite complex for what I have seen.

Really the constant high (relatively) ground temperature (in the winter) and cool (in the summer) provide the savings.

The University of Oklahoma and the Oregon Technical Institute have lots of information available on the web.

Unless you live in a cold climate where an air source heat pump is not cost effective you will never manage to pay off the difference in costs - GSHP systems are expensive.

Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: 44.56024"N 15.307971E
Posts: 8277
Good Answers: 270
#10
In reply to #8

Re: Ground Source Heat Pump

06/29/2011 11:19 AM

The 55F number I quoted is the AVERAGE temperature for my location.I have a good grasp of heat pump theory and hands on experience, and I intend to install this unit myself,so costs will be a lot lower than otherwise.The thermal conductivity of the various materials complicated the calculation.Thermal mass calculation is no problem, rather how fast the heat can travel into the surrounding earth is the crux of the problem.There are several materials in series between the water and the wet clay,which I consider to be an infinite heat source,for all practical purposes of the calculation, and I realize the absorbsion of heat will decrease as the differential temperature between the elements decrease.

My real question is how to calculate the thermal transfer of the media between the water and the clay.Do I simply take the lowest value as the limiting factor, or are there more factors involved?

The concrete tile has holes allowing water to pass thru to the gravel layer surrounding it,so the gravel is totally flooded at all times, and the water acts as a heat sink to average the temperature of the gravel, which has a higher thermal mass than the water.The flooded gravel is in intimate contact with the clay,being coupled by the water surrounding it, and it is also coupled with the concrete tile in the same manner.

I intend to install the exchanger coils in a spiral, to create a convection flow from the bottom to the top of the well, with no 2 coils directly over another.This should tend to mix the water and create a relative motion between the sides and center, enhancing heat transfer,and preventing stagnant thermal boundaries(thermoclines).

Any problems with this plan if the calculations of heat transfer are worked out?

__________________
"A man never stands so tall as when he stoops to help a child." "Never argue with a stupid person.They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience" "To create an apple pie from scratch, first you must create a universe"
Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: 1° North Singapore
Posts: 568
Good Answers: 17
#14
In reply to #6

Re: Ground Source Heat Pump

06/29/2011 9:05 PM

I think because the well has large surface area and a large amount of water (hugh heat capacity), for average home, I do not think , you need to worry about the well not able to cope. Not only that, it is tied to big earth whiich is a big reservoir .

__________________
Sharing knowledge is one thing that defies basic arithmetic logic --- the more you share, the more you get!
Register to Reply
Guru
Hobbies - Fishing - Old Salt Hobbies - CNC - New Member United States - US - Statue of Liberty - New Member

Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Rosedale, Maryland USA
Posts: 5197
Good Answers: 266
#7

Re: Ground Source Heat Pump

06/28/2011 11:36 AM

The make up of the concrete is unknown or the type of gravel. Heat conduction rate for those are an unknown with out their make up. Either way the thermal conduction of those materials are higher then water. So base it on the waters conduction rate. There are other factors that would make difference as is the ground water moving.

Also by your dimensions the water volume is 16% larger then 750 gals. That would make big difference in your calculations.

__________________
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving in a pretty, pristine body but rather to come sliding in sideways, all used up and exclaiming, "Wow, what a ride!"
Register to Reply
Power-User

Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 116
Good Answers: 4
#9

Re: Ground Source Heat Pump

06/29/2011 10:00 AM

Hi

I to have a well some 4 feet in diameter but with only 12feet depth of water and I also keep thinking abut whether or not it would be a good source for heat energy so I am interested in any replies. I have no thermal lining but a red sand stone wall some 12" thick.

Many thanks

Oliver Dunthorne

Register to Reply
Power-User
Canada - Member - New Member

Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: The Great White North
Posts: 185
Good Answers: 13
#11

Re: Ground Source Heat Pump

06/29/2011 1:06 PM

I believe the sink and storage capacity of your well would not depend on the materials surrounding your well but in the amount of bleed you are going to use to keep the well at ground water temperature. As long as the well has good flow, water can be removed or bled off to allow new water into the well to maintain groundwater temperature. If you don't bleed the well the standing water column will gradually heat or cool depending on whether you are using the well for heating or cooling. Here is some information for standing wells in use today.

http://www.hvac.okstate.edu/research/Documents/Orio_Johnson_Rees_Chiasson_Deng_Spitler_05.pdf

__________________
Knowledge makes what was impossible, seem easy.
Register to Reply
Power-User

Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 116
Good Answers: 4
#12
In reply to #11

Re: Ground Source Heat Pump

06/29/2011 2:18 PM

Thank you for the attached link it makes interesting reading

Oliver Dunthorne

Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: 44.56024"N 15.307971E
Posts: 8277
Good Answers: 270
#13
In reply to #11

Re: Ground Source Heat Pump

06/29/2011 7:20 PM

Thanks for the link.All of the standing column wells I saw were 6inch diameter, and they rely on through put of water to move heat into and out of the well, because of the relatively small surface area of the well bore.

If I add the thickness of the gravel to the diameter of the tile, I get around 4 ft. diameter, which equals about 465 square feet of radiator area at 37 feet of depth of water.

This is a very large heat sink area in contact with clay.Water is a much better conductor of heat than air,and so is wet clay, so for comparison, imagine an air heat exchanger that is 10 feet high by 46 feet long, and it can shed a lot of heat.

Using 1300 feet of 1 inch UHMW tubing in this well,I am thinking the well could handle much more.

Perhaps I am wrong, but a seat- of- the-pants calculation looks feasible to me.

__________________
"A man never stands so tall as when he stoops to help a child." "Never argue with a stupid person.They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience" "To create an apple pie from scratch, first you must create a universe"
Register to Reply
Register to Reply 14 comments
Copy to Clipboard

Users who posted comments:

bravo88 (2); Elroy (1); HiTekRedNek (4); Oliver Dunthorne (2); ozzb (1); PWSlack (2); rakesh_semwal (1); russ123 (1)

Previous in Forum: Concrete Paving Blocks   Next in Forum: Early Work Activity

Advertisement