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Automotive Computer Issue

07/21/2011 10:29 PM

I am a female truck driver. My truck is a 2006 Chevy Duramax 6.6L Turbo Diesel. I have been fascinated with the prospect of adding HHO to this truck. I designed and built my own system. It puts out about 3/4 of a liter a minute using about 10 aps. It appears to be giving me improved mileage gains. The kicker is the fuel mileage gains last about three days and then returns to baseline. When I disconect the batteries for 20 min to reset the computer the mileage gains return. So I know it is a computer issue. The computer is relearning its original maps on file. My question is what sort of circuit can be devised to send a signal to the ECM to keep the new maps locked in place? Can the signal be sent to the ECM throug the mass air flow sensor or the intake air temperature sensor?

I would like to solve this problem with the computer, your help will be appreciated.

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#1

Re: automotive computer issue

07/22/2011 12:14 AM

Welcome to CR4.

Please see the numerous threads on CR4 regarding HHO and water electrolysers as this subject has been done to death.

For actual repeatable mileage gains that will save you money (rather than waste it) consider changing your driving style or reducing the aerodynamic drag of your vehicle.

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#2

Re: automotive computer issue

07/22/2011 2:18 AM

For one thing, "HOH" is sort of a misnomer. Rather, 2H2O + electricity → 2H2 + O2. Other concepts are questionable as well.

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#3

Re: Automotive Computer Issue

07/22/2011 11:35 PM

Try this classic thread from Blink

http://cr4.globalspec.com/thread/35169#comment481729

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#4

Re: Automotive Computer Issue

07/23/2011 8:36 AM

I find it is very interesting but cannot for the life of me figure why it would have an effect on the computer, but that is how they get us these days ( the old days of carburation and no computers, ahhhhhhhhh miss em) I have looked over so many threads on HHo and find many naysayers. My background was originally in chemistry and I remember separating hydrogen and oxygen with a battery and watching it burn. I hear so many talk about how inefficient it is. The problem is what you measure efficiency against. First, the alternator is turning regardless of load. as long as the battery is charging and the ignition and timing system is getting the juice it needs, then any additional current is a plus (basically free). I think there is much potential to at least give a very small fraction of fuel efficiency, and anything is better than nothing in this day and age. My guess is that your computer is going by the inputs from all of the sensors and figuring something is wrong.

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#6
In reply to #4

Re: Automotive Computer Issue

07/23/2011 11:44 AM

Heavy sigh.

You seemed to have missed the section on thermodynamics when you studied chemistry. Simply put, you never get as much energy out of burning the hydrrogen than it took to electrolyze it.

The alternator does not provide free energy. When a load is put on the electrical system, the motor must supply more energy to turn the alternator.

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#10
In reply to #6

Re: Automotive Computer Issue

07/23/2011 12:59 PM

Maybe not, the alternator turns at the same speed, regardless. the alternator turns at the same rpm. the energy is there so use it. if you were using your home wiring to produce the hydrogen and paying for it then it would not be cost effective, but you are driving the car anyway, it uses no more to run electrolysis than the car would use otherwise. My car doesnt go faster when the alternator is producing electricity. if i am going 55 mph and not producing hydrogen, vs going 55mph and producing, where is the extra coming from? there is no real change. The energy is there so it may as well be used.

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#11
In reply to #10

Re: Automotive Computer Issue

07/23/2011 1:59 PM

"the alternator turns at the same rpm. the energy is there so use it."

False. Drawing power from the alternator requires a corresponding increase of the power required to turn the alternator. The basic conversion of watts to horsepower (746 W = 1 HP) demonstrates this.

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#18
In reply to #4

Re: Automotive Computer Issue

07/25/2011 12:23 PM

First, the alternator is turning regardless of load. as long as the battery is charging and the ignition and timing system is getting the juice it needs, then any additional current is a plus (basically free).


No. Completely wrong.

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#5

Re: Automotive Computer Issue

07/23/2011 10:15 AM

Regardless of all the negative comments the problem is the excess oxygen being picked up by the O2 sensors. After spending months on this I have found at this time there to be no all round solution. There are spacers to move the O2 sensors back out of the exhaust stream that work sometimes. One or two may be needed to get proper reading, I would not play with the Electronic systems just too complicated. Adding Oxygen and hydrogen is a great idea but with engine controls on modern engines a major problem. There is no easy solution however I would suggest you look into an engine programmer such as made by Edge, Banks, Bully Dog and a host of more. My 7.3 went from an unfordable 11 mpg to 19.5 with an edge unit. I love the idea of Browns Gas but the problems are daunting from a tuning perspective.

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#7
In reply to #5

Re: Automotive Computer Issue

07/23/2011 11:56 AM

Regardless of all the negative comments the problem is the excess oxygen being picked up by the O2 sensors.

You appear hopeless confused. There are very few negative comments here. Most are very positive comments supporting the value of thoughtfulness, education, real data, and scientific inquiry.

Calculate the mass of O2 induced with "HHO" (an idiotic, unscientific misnomer itself). Consider the mass of O2 in the air that is being displaced by the HHO mixture. Compare the infinitesimally small amount of either H2 or O2 induced versus the huge amounts of oxygen and fuel ordinarily induced (thousands of liters vs .75 liters). Although the process can and has been calculated to produce a net loss, no dynamometer (even the $25,000/day super-sophisticated ones) can measure the .1% loss expected. Nor could they measure the .1% gain that would be expected if the HHO arrived with no thermodynamic cost (e.g, if it was produced by another vehicle and piped over to the vehicle whose mileage we are pretending to "improve").

This is an engineering site. Do the math, correctly, then come back to us.

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#8
In reply to #5

Re: Automotive Computer Issue

07/23/2011 12:01 PM

A car pulls in over 100 cfm of air, which is about 500 liter/min O2. You are generating what, a liter/min O2? Is that 0.2% increase in O2 driving the sensor crazy? It must go crazy all the time, as the O2 content of ambient air varies way more than this all the time.

Of course, that assumes that there is excess O2, which their is not. The O2 sensor is after combustion. H2 and O2 are in the perfect ratio, so they are perfectly burned to form water, no excess O2 left.

If you are getting improved fuel mileage, it is because you have altered your timing. You can remove the HHO device, all it does is waste a little energy.

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#9

Re: Automotive Computer Issue

07/23/2011 12:36 PM

Hi

Are you THE Lisa from Ice Road Truckers??

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#12

Re: Automotive Computer Issue

07/23/2011 3:38 PM

you could put solar panels on the roof of the vehicle and use that to generate electricicty for your hydrogen generator.

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#13
In reply to #12

Re: Automotive Computer Issue

07/23/2011 3:59 PM

sure there's lots of things you could do

That doesn't it doesn't make them a good idea

Is the juice works the squeeze

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#14

Re: Automotive Computer Issue

07/23/2011 7:25 PM

Thanks for all your reponses, but the question was not answered. I did not ask if you believed in HHO or the tooth fairy. I should not even mention this phenom on this website!! The question was: Do you know of a design circuit that will send a signal to the 5 volt reference to trick the computer to keep the new MAP files in place on the ECM? Simple question. I hope I am not addressing the US congress!

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#15
In reply to #14

Re: Automotive Computer Issue

07/23/2011 7:37 PM

As I mentioned in my first response there are spacers that move the o2 sensors out of the exhaust flow that help in many cases and sometimes you need to stack two possibly three to get the o2 sensor not to read as much oxygen. When it reads excess oxygen it tells the computer of a lean condition and the computer riches up the mixture to get correct reading. This cancels out the benefit of the hydrogen & oxygen. At this time I know of no one that makes a simple electronic device to do the same thing. I have installed about 17 units and will not do installs on any O2 sensor equipped vehicles for this reason.

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#16
In reply to #14

Re: Automotive Computer Issue

07/23/2011 9:18 PM

You are in fact asking us to believe that HHO works or you wouldn't have mentioned it

if you want to trick the computer buy a device to do that, just like roy suggested earlier on, there are a wide array of after market companies that will be happy to sell you stuff

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#19
In reply to #14

Re: Automotive Computer Issue

07/25/2011 1:06 PM

Please accept our apologies for our low idiocy tolerance.

Your question is impossible to parse. Please clarify 1. "design circuit", 2. "send a signal to the 5 volt reference," and 3. "the new MAP files"

1. Did you mean "circuit design"?

2. A signal is not sent to a reference. Perhaps you want to change the reference voltage, or change the voltage coming from a sensor, or some such?

3. MAP in the context of engines, means Manifold Absolute Pressure. There are no MAP files, in an automotive context. Did you mean '"map" as in "fuel map"? In this context, map is a simple word, not an acronym. The fuel map is relied upon for open loop operation.

Why not just buy an "EFIE" like the morons do? Put it on, convince yourself you are getting better mileage because of it and your magical mystery machine (with its stunningly low output) and be done with it. No need to come here an subject yourself to ridicule.

Dreaming that your O2 sensor can pick up the difference in O2 with and without your "HHO"? Dream on.

If you can come up with a simple question, we'd be happy to supply a simple answer.

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#24
In reply to #19

Re: Automotive Computer Issue

07/25/2011 9:41 PM

I can see why you don't use your real name!!!

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Anonymous Poster #2
#25
In reply to #24

Re: Automotive Computer Issue

07/25/2011 10:44 PM

Why would you say that?

extraordinary claims require

extraordinary proof

got any?

you have been getting an easy time of it compared to any other HHO proponent, because your username makes it appear you are female. The men lose their minds...

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#29
In reply to #14

Re: Automotive Computer Issue

07/28/2011 3:43 AM

Dear Mam,

I think You should consider to install airflow sensor manipulator, this gadget will manipulate data from the airflow sensor to the ECU, in simple language, when the data from manipulator "say" to ECU that they running on lower air rates, so the ECU will tell the Fuel system circuit to reduce the amount of fuel to the engine, so then You will have Your engine runs in leaner fuel flow.

however in modern auto car, the manufacturer add some ability to the ECU to recognized anomalies of their cycles, if it find any irregularity then they will analyzed and diagnosed the problem and the system back on the "default" state, so make sure that Your ECU can be reprogram if the used of air flow data manipulator doesn't help.

another thing that You should consider is Your HHO generator capacity, once I tried on my experienced 3 liter/ min was provide me for less than 20% of fuel reduction, off course it will vary to the vehicle configuration, as I used a modest 1,3 liter normally aspirated carburetor gasoline engine back from 1990 technologies.

FYI

Hidroxy gas have Thermal Value of 3200 Kcal/Kg (approx) and Effective Calories of 3020 (approx) while Petroleum have a generous of 9200 Kcal/Kg thermal value and 7350 of effective calories, in simple math, appart from the sthoiciometry things, You need to produce approximately 3 kg of "Gases" to substitutes 1 kg of petroleum.

know back to Your last question, I have some design but i cannot give You any guarantee if it will work to Your engine and I don not see any facilities of this sites to send pdf files.

Good luck

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#17

Re: Automotive Computer Issue

07/25/2011 12:04 PM

If you can find the main power lead to the engine's computer, you could wire it so it's only on when the ignition is on. That way it continuously resets itself.

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#23
In reply to #17

Re: Automotive Computer Issue

07/25/2011 9:35 PM

Good answer. I have done that. But it created some start up issues with the engine running rough for several minutes. Again good answer. Thanks

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#20

Re: Automotive Computer Issue

07/25/2011 2:01 PM

Lisa,

I think you have gotten an unfair bashing here. This has been a hot topic here, and you stepped in a hornets nest.

This is a community of mostly technical folks. It is an absolute scientific fact that these devices consume more energy than they deliver. There is no question about it, if you understand thermodynamics. Many people come on here to argue this fact, and the discussions are unpleasant.

Every controlled test using this technology shows that it does not improve gas mileage. There have been many documented scams.

And yet, there are many many people who swear that it works. Almost all say that you have to "fool" the O2 sensor to get it to work. As myself and others have pointed out, this is ridiculous, as there is no "excess" O2, the devices simply trick the engine into running lean. This improves gas mileage. It is illegal (increases emissions) and will possibly damage your engine.

At this point, you can probably disconnect the HHO. It is "efie" that is saving you gas, not the HHO.

There are some that more or less acknowledge this, but say the HHO allows the engine to run lean without damage. This seems highly unlikely, given the small amount of H2 produced.

This subject fascinates me, I would be greatly interested in your results. One interesting test would be to remove the HHO, and simply reset your computer every three days. I think you'll see the same improvement in mileage, without the HHO.

Again, what you want is called an efie. As a professional driver, you may have additional concern over installing this illegal device.

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#21
In reply to #20

Re: Automotive Computer Issue

07/25/2011 3:21 PM

the HHO generator probably also acts as a water vapor injector

it would be interesting to have a simple vacumn powered water injector installed & reset the computer every 3 days

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#22
In reply to #21

Re: Automotive Computer Issue

07/25/2011 5:14 PM

this is the answer as to why you are getting an apparent improvment in gas mileage. Vapor injection does work it also cause premature engine wear.(rust) Why do you think the major auto manufacturers don't use it?

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#26
In reply to #20

Re: Automotive Computer Issue

07/27/2011 3:37 AM

Lisa took a wrong turn in the beginning by posting this question to a bunch of engineers and actually expecting an answer she can use. Methodical Step by step process individuals who see black and white and a list of reasons to support why there is no gray or for that matter any patience to assume or entertain anything outside of their analytical world...anal being the operative word in that sentence.

Before any of you jump me ...I am just saying one engineer to a group is plenty...all else is redundant and rude.

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#27
In reply to #26

Re: Automotive Computer Issue

07/27/2011 8:31 AM

you will find plenty of technically minded people

on a forum that describes itself as

The Engineer's Place for News & Discussion®

you're right, We're not Keely net or PeskyWiki

We do deal in reality, which is where an answer Lisa could use would reside

very little pixie dust here....

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#28
In reply to #26

Re: Automotive Computer Issue

07/27/2011 12:51 PM

Engineer: "Instead of using established physics and engineering principles, I designed this bridge the way I think it should be designed"

Highway Superintendent: "Will it stand up to the traffic load in the specification"?

Engineer: "It's a grey area"

Any engineer that isn't anal about facts is dangerous.

This is an engineering forum. People here understand that the scientific principles we believe in have been tested and verified over centuries countless times. Wishing that these established facts are flawed does not make it so.

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