Cheap Plastic Made from Sugarcane

So...

World foodstock is already being diverted to ethanol plants to fuel our automobiles, creating a shortage of food supply. And now...

There are production facilities that today convert ethylene into ethanol. Can we not make up our minds?

Do we sometimes solve the wrong problem? I'm just asking.

You may not understand the finer points of subsidy harvesting.

It doesn't have much to do with feeding people. Unless that's where the money is.

It's about the money? When did this start?

I wonder what The Wurzels think about this?

^{Subsidy harvesting I like that.}

That's not exactly true

for corn you lose less than 20% of the weight, the other 80% becomes brewers waste, which is used for livestock feed

Many of the ethanol plants here on the west coast mainly provide cattle feed, the ethanol part only has to break even [though with subsidies they do better than that]

I don't know what the details are in brazil for sugar cane, but for sugar beets refining the last 15% of the sugar is the most expensive part. the bugs that crap out ethanol aren't as particular

if we get to choose between subsidizing a farmer from the midwest or subsidizing a sheik from the middle east....

"World foodstock is already being diverted to ethanol plants to fuel our automobiles, creating a shortage of food supply. And now..."

1+1=3 1+1=3 1+1=3

No matter how many times you say it, or hear it, it's still not true.

And it makes you sound like a moron.

The food supply is more expensive because the price of oil, (the primary fuel for growing food) has tripled in price over the last three years.

I'll try once again. Ethanol production from corn does not reduce protein feedstocks for livestock, which is the final destination for feedstock corn. Besides ethanol, corn yields massive amounts of high protein meal, which is, as you might expect, fed to livestock. And it is not even a particularly good ethanol feedstock, but it does already have a very good market developed for the protein by product.

It does require energy to process out the starch, to make ethanol. much like exploring for, drilling for, transporting, restoring environmental damage, and cracking petroleum to remove various concoctions of fuel, chemicals, etc. All legitimate energy harvesting activities.

Oh, I don't know that I need I need the subject of food supply to sound like a moron.

The debate over this has become like the discussion regarding cameras at stop lights; there is no clear answer, and both sides argue with passion that they are correct, trotting out all sorts of study results.

Wikipedia explains some of the legitimate foodstock concerns. Here is another, The Dirty Truth About Biofuels. There are many, many, many more. There are about an equal number of papers and studies that support your position.

Enjoy your view of the world through your rose colored glasses. It is no clearer than my view of the world through my rose colored glasses.

My glasses are rose colored, I'd agree. Show me a comparitive analysis of the total costs of extracting oil, and getting it into your gas tank (including geopolitical, mechanical and environmental costs,) versus the cost of growing fuel. It may cost more to grow fuel. Is that really what this is about? Ask yourself this. "Do I want to develop a sustainable energy model, so that my children will inherit an ecosystem that can provide clean water, air and food, and that doesn't require a vast military intervention to ensure it is secure?" I've had people laugh in my face when asked that question.

As an energy expert, I can assure you that we will not only need all of the petroleum we can find, we will consume it, at consistently rising prices. And I admit that there is a lot left. I know that. Should we burn it in a prius or a hummer? Should we buy it from the Middle East? It is just not sensible, but most Americans don't care. I don't care enough to stop driving my car. I guess I'm the moron, in the eyes of my children. I really thought 10 years ago that we would now be fueling with alcohols, bio diesels and electricity. The reason we are not is clearly because of the money in oil. So when you continue to repeat this mantra of no ethanol, you simply endorse the status quo, hiding from change under a rock. How about calling a spade a spade? You don't believe that developing an independent sustainable energy model is in your best interest. There is a debate.

You asked "Do I want to develop a sustainable energy model, so that my children will inherit an ecosystem that can provide clean water, air and food, and that doesn't require a vast military intervention to ensure it is secure?"

Of course I do. For my children, yours, their children, and so on. Only a moron would want otherwise.

Your question (your entire comment) is a mark of the passion I mentioned. I have no interest in "Show me a comparitive analysis of the total costs of extracting oil..." because I have no passion for this debate (that has derailed Garthh's thread); my arguments would be weak as I have no direct knowledge of the points.

As an energy expert, what do you think about making cheap plastic from sugarcane? In the original post, text in the link sort of indicates it might not be all that cheap. From the article: "While he [Luis Cirihal] says the plastics produced will be competitive with petrochemicals, he also says the company hopes to charge more for the product because of the significant demand for low-carbon, sustainable materials."

Refreshing. A sustainable energy model combined with good old fashioned capitalism.

Seems logical. If it (plastic) can be made with a renewable resource, reduces petroleum demand, can be economically feasible, has a better manufacturing toxicity profile, I think I would support it. But if it is a wildly green liberal plot to get handouts for farmers, at the expense of oil, we'll never find out, will we?

Hey derail away

to me the interesting part is

A sustainable energy model combined with good old fashioned capitalism.

Dow isn't stupid, they keep retooling their sustainable/renewable programs, trying to figure out how to position themselves for the future & make a couple of bucks today. At least they are broadening their horizons

I agree, Garthh. Come on in, the water's fine.

I found this

http://www.wired.com/autopia/2011/06/five-ethanol-myths-busted-2/

From my favorite GS Blogger

http://view.email.globalspec.com/?j=fe6415717d63037c7415&m=fef11d73726d06&ls=fdec157074620c787d1d747c&l=fefb107070670c&s=fe2810717c62077d741378&jb=ff9a1170&ju=fe2d15747667067b7d1370&r=0

not definitive, but interesting

Reasonable post. It would simply amaze me not to see at least three replies, all of them repeating, ethanol takes more energy to produce than it creates and it is causing food prices to rise.

OK. Here is one for you: Ethanol takes more energy to produce than it creates and it is causing food prices to rise.

On a more serious note, a comment in my post #1: "There are production facilities that today convert ethylene into ethanol. Can we not make up our minds?"

Can you comment about this? Being perfectly honest, I am parroting things I have heard or seen on the 'net, newspapers, radio... Is this really true?

I know nothing about converting ethylene into ethanol. Is there an excess supply of ethylene? I thought that was the gas that caused tomatoes to ripen.

When I first posted I found a more complete article, but I can't find it again. I now find this comment in a Wiki article: "About 5% of the ethanol produced in the world in 2003 was actually a petroleum product. It is made by the catalytic hydration of ethylene with sulfuric acid as the catalyst." (This data is seven years old; is it still somewhat valid?)

So, we convert ethylene (derived from petro) into ethanol. In another process, convert sugarcane (in this example) into ethanol, and convert that to ethylene, using that ethylene to make plastic. Why not use the base ethylene (that was already available) to make plastic, and use the ethanol as biofuel instead of the apparent musical chairs game?

It seems that some conservation of effort and energy might be realized if the parties involved would trade stuff, in lieu of these conversions.

But, then I couldn't tell my friends at Greenpeace (not an endorsement) that my plastic sandals are made from sugarcane and not that 'dirty' commodity.

my understanding is that the hardcore chemical grade ethanol was traditionally made from black gold [texas T]

reminds me of when I was making Biodiesel, I spent some time looking a methanol production, almost all of it is made from reforming natural gas, in africa or south america

be nice you're going to make his head explode

the feasibility of a process depends on the local conditions

http://www.ethanolproducer.com/articles/7022/braskem-starts-up-ethanol-to-ethylene-plant/

looks like they have plenty of cheap ethanol

a couple 100 thousand ton is only a little more than a pilot plant

they are not converting ethylene into ethanol. They are converting ethanol into ethylene into poly ethylene. Is someone putting ethanol in your tomato juice?

There seems to be nothing new under the sun! If I am not wrong, Henry Ford had dashboards molded in Bakelite for some of the cars his company produced in the late 20´s or so. This plastic also had an organic origin : soy beans.

Then, when we run out of sugar, we can synthesize it just as cheaply from petroleum....

Chapeu!

Merci!

And when the feedstock is starches?

Garthh, do you have a rough idea about how much plastic can be generated per ton of sugarcane.

I'm sure Dow considers that info proprietary

http://www.businesswire.com/news/dow/20110719005368/en

The problem with subsidies is they create market distortions and they are funded by national debt. Not a very good solution to pricing problems. Second, with the money following the fuel/plastics line, the food lines get longer and the prices of food items get higher. I would rather eat the sugar than sit on it as a plastic chair!

I am not the cleverest guy in my family, but just let me ask: until there is a real oil shortage: why we just don´t make food out from corn and plastics out of petroleum?

Great Scott! You should patent that idea.