Previous in Forum: Induction Heating   Next in Forum: Should Empty Stator of a Tacho be Covered with Metal?
Close
Close
Close
19 comments
Rate Comments: Nested
Participant

Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 1

What Does DC Current do to AC Only Devices

09/24/2011 10:30 PM

For those of you that are true engineers please pardon the simplicity of my questions. I am about to plug in a AC current surge protector with some electrical devices that are also AC. In my building there is a backup generator that sometimes sends DC current through at start up before converting to AC current. The building engineer said that this was the problem in some previous failures with computers and other plugged in devices. Would an AC surge protector/power strip allow DC current to pass through to my plugged-in devices and damage them or would it stop at the strip because it is AC only? Secondly, would the DC current also destroy the surge protector/power strip in the process? Last, does it matter if it is a quick burst of DC current versus sustained?

I welcome your thoughts?

Thanks,

Truly not techical

Register to Reply
Interested in this topic? By joining CR4 you can "subscribe" to
this discussion and receive notification when new comments are added.

Good Answers:

These comments received enough positive votes to make them "good answers".

"Almost" Good Answers:

Check out these comments that don't yet have enough votes to be "official" good answers and, if you agree with them, vote them!
3
Guru
Engineering Fields - Power Engineering - New Member

Join Date: May 2007
Location: NYC metropolitan area.
Posts: 3230
Good Answers: 444
#1

Re: What does DC current do to AC only devices

09/24/2011 11:30 PM

Quite frankly I think it's the building engineer that's not technical, the concept of an AC generator producing DC is an attempt to brush you off. What can happen is that during the startup phase it may produce low voltages as it comes up to speed and voltage spikes as various loads are switched on. These voltage fluctuations may effect your equipment depending upon their exact nature. An ordinary surge protector will have absolutely no effect on low voltages reaching it and will allow them to pass right through, to protect against this you will need a UPS (Uninterruptable Power Supply) that also has AVR (Automatic Voltage Regulating) capabilities that will boost the voltage if it's too low, lower it if it's too high, and clamp (absorb) any high voltage spikes (transients) that come its way.

__________________
“Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.” Ben Franklin.
Register to Reply Good Answer (Score 3)
Guru

Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: East Tenneesse, USA
Posts: 685
Good Answers: 46
#2

Re: What does DC current do to AC only devices

09/24/2011 11:41 PM

If the building people can not fix there equipment. I would be installing isolation transformers with proper fusing to open the circuit when the DC current rush came in.

If its equipment that needs to operate I would look into power conditioning UPS supplies.

Others on CR4 may have more info.

To your question, I think the surge protector most likely will not help. The surge protectors work more on the quick higher voltage of a surge "mostly DC" If the DC pulse is not much more than the RMS of the AC I don't think it will work very well. But it might it all depends on the duration of the DC.

A side note, the building generator electronic control should not engage the output until the AC has stabilized.Or there system is not appropriate for its use.

---------------

Thanks RAMConsulant, ya beat me to the punch GA.

__________________
Metal is the material, The forge is life, The anvil and hammer bring character and soul.
Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: 1° North Singapore
Posts: 568
Good Answers: 17
#3

Re: What does DC current do to AC only devices

09/24/2011 11:43 PM

First, the generator , if it is an AC generator, it will only generate AC, I cannot imagine how a AC generator will generate DC during start up !

Second, some AC powered device such as computers (or those with switching power dupply) will be able to run from either AC or DC supply as long as the supply voltage does not exceed voltage rating. Some AC powered devices, such as those with a input step down transformer will be immediately damaged if you plug it into DC supply.

An AC urge protector will also protect against DC surge if it is within voltage rating.

__________________
Sharing knowledge is one thing that defies basic arithmetic logic --- the more you share, the more you get!
Register to Reply
Guru
Hobbies - Musician - Engineering Fields - Chemical Engineering - New Member Engineering Fields - Control Engineering - New Member Engineering Fields - Instrumentation Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Moses Lake, WA, USA, Thulcandra - The Silent Planet (C.S. Lewis)
Posts: 4216
Good Answers: 194
#4

Re: What does DC current do to AC only devices

09/24/2011 11:59 PM

To sum up what everyone else is saying, THERE CAN BE NO INTERMITTENT DC VOLTAGE FROM A GENERATOR. PERIOD. Either the building engineer is lying to you or he is totally incompetent.

__________________
"Reason is not automatic. Those who deny it cannot be conquered by it. Do not count on them. Leave them alone." - Ayn Rand
Register to Reply
Power-User

Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Bengaluru, India
Posts: 128
Good Answers: 3
#5

Re: What does DC current do to AC only devices

09/25/2011 7:27 AM

The principle of surge protector is to protect your equipment against voltage spikes. Surge protectors have energy dissipation capability. As long as the energy dissipated is within the rating of the protector, the protector must allow supply removing the voltage spikes without any damage to itself.

As far as the load is concerned, It is not clear whether the load will be able to withstand the DC current. It may depend on the nature of the load.

__________________
Dr.Raghunatha Ramaswamy - We discover nothing new other than knowledge
Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Izmir, Turkey
Posts: 2142
Good Answers: 31
#6
In reply to #5

Re: What does DC current do to AC only devices

09/25/2011 7:33 AM

What DC current?

Register to Reply
Power-User

Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Bengaluru, India
Posts: 128
Good Answers: 3
#7
In reply to #6

Re: What does DC current do to AC only devices

09/25/2011 7:36 AM

The heading says DC Current do to AC Only Devices???

Surge arresters in AC for example are not meant to provide protection only against AC voltage.

__________________
Dr.Raghunatha Ramaswamy - We discover nothing new other than knowledge
Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Izmir, Turkey
Posts: 2142
Good Answers: 31
#9
In reply to #7

Re: What does DC current do to AC only devices

09/25/2011 8:24 AM

The OP has no idea but is repeating what some clown told them

Register to Reply
Power-User

Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Bengaluru, India
Posts: 128
Good Answers: 3
#10
In reply to #9

Re: What does DC current do to AC only devices

09/25/2011 8:28 AM

I understand..Just wanted to say surge arrester is for voltage spikes..

__________________
Dr.Raghunatha Ramaswamy - We discover nothing new other than knowledge
Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Guru

Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 1119
Good Answers: 11
#8

Re: What Does DC Current do to AC Only Devices

09/25/2011 8:21 AM

You are wrongly informed by your incompetent engineer.

All generators are made AC, no DC. Typical for building set-up, you have right there an ATS-Automatic Transfer Switch. Once there is an interuption, it switches automatically shifted from local electric provider to your generator.

As the generator receives the signal to power-on, a DC current from the battery rushes to the starter of the engine(isolated)--NOT to the main supply lines.

Once the shaft of the generator turns, AC current will be induced not DC, so no DC in the main lines of your building.

Just to answer your question "what if the AC equipment be plug in to DC or change type of power- AC to DC" ---So long as your DC Voltage is less or equal AC Voltage rating, your equipment wont be affected/burn.

Most electrical equipment has a transformer on it that works only with AC type of supply. Plugging a DC on it wont effect to induction of current. So your electrical equipment wont work.

__________________
" To infinity and beyond" - Buzz Lightyear
Register to Reply Score 1 for Off Topic
Power-User
Popular Science - Weaponology - New Member

Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Berkeley, CA USA
Posts: 128
Good Answers: 4
#14
In reply to #8

Re: What Does DC Current do to AC Only Devices

09/26/2011 2:36 AM

As pointed out above a DC voltage supplied to a transformer will FRY it!

A DC voltage supplied to an induction motor will make it act as a break! A generator connected to an electric motor with lots of inertia will produce lots of voltage spikes on the line and mechanical spikes to the motor load. The bigger the motor and load the bigger the spikes and surges on the line till the generator and motor synchronize.

The spike protectors (MOV) are designed to conduct any voltage over 150VAC(±212VDC) or 300VAC(±424VDC).

__________________
Working to end the use of carbon for energy
Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 1119
Good Answers: 11
#15
In reply to #14

Re: What Does DC Current do to AC Only Devices

09/26/2011 3:41 AM

Perhaps, you wouldn't mind showing me equation why should it fry. You cant just say things you cant justify. A transformer is not a motor nonetheless yes, they have same working basics "electromagnetism" but different functions.

Basic Equations like Ohms Law Power= (Voltage x Amperage)dc= (Voltage x Amperage x PF)ac

All settles down to the power rating of the transformer so long as it is not loaded excessively than its capacity rating either it be DC or AC-> it should not burn, do you get it now?

__________________
" To infinity and beyond" - Buzz Lightyear
Register to Reply
Power-User
Popular Science - Weaponology - New Member

Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Berkeley, CA USA
Posts: 128
Good Answers: 4
#17
In reply to #15

Re: What Does DC Current do to AC Only Devices

09/26/2011 12:54 PM

Inductive impedance (XL) = ωL. If ω = 0 = DC what is your impedance? With that impedance what is your current? How much current can the conductors in your transformer handle? Maybe your fuse will blow or your breaker will trip first but something will go.

__________________
Working to end the use of carbon for energy
Register to Reply
Guru
United States - Member - New Member Engineering Fields - Power Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: California, USA, where the Godless live next door to God.
Posts: 4665
Good Answers: 804
#19
In reply to #14

Re: What Does DC Current do to AC Only Devices

09/26/2011 5:05 PM

"As pointed out above a DC voltage supplied to a transformer will FRY it!"

Well to be fair, not ANY DC voltage applied to a transformer will fry it. There is SOME resistance in the windings, so if the DC voltage is low enough, it will have a heating effect and if lower enough again, a negligible one.

"A DC voltage supplied to an induction motor will make it act as a break!"

Well again, to be fair, a DC voltage applied to a ROTATING motor will make it act as a brake, but once it stops, it's just a heater.

"A generator connected to an electric motor with lots of inertia will produce lots of voltage spikes on the line and mechanical spikes to the motor load. The bigger the motor and load the bigger the spikes and surges on the line till the generator and motor synchronize."

Not to be pedantic, but the spikes, however real, are only going to be there for the first few cycles. After that the motor field is synchronized and it just goes right along as normal from then on. Assuming everything survives of course, because you are right that those first few cycles can create horrendous spikes, in theory up to 2200% of mormal current in the motor, and I have seen the resultant torque spike twist the shaft off of a 500HP motor.

__________________
** All I every really wanted to be, was... A LUMBERJACK!.**
Register to Reply Score 1 for Good Answer
Guru

Join Date: May 2010
Location: Metro.Manila, Philippines.
Posts: 1269
Good Answers: 27
#16
In reply to #8

Re: What Does DC Current do to AC Only Devices

09/26/2011 9:49 AM

I beg to differ with the following statement of yours;
"All generators are made AC, no DC." ?? Not quite correct! There are AC as well as DC generators. It will all depend on how the motor is built and terminated. Generators found in automotive applications is a good example, they are either AC or the DC type.
"Plugging a DC on it wont effect to induction of current." Depending on the magnitude of the DC fed on a transformer, may cause winding saturate which may blow any protective fusing for the device.

__________________
vsar
Register to Reply
5
Guru
United States - Member - New Member Engineering Fields - Power Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: California, USA, where the Godless live next door to God.
Posts: 4665
Good Answers: 804
#11

Re: What Does DC Current do to AC Only Devices

09/25/2011 12:02 PM

"In my building there is a backup generator that sometimes sends DC current through at start up before converting to AC current. The building engineer said that this was the problem in some previous failures with computers and other plugged in devices."

Wow, what a load of male bovine excrement. Your "building engineer" is most likely more building than engineer. He is probably misinterpreting an otherwise obscure element of power transfer schemes called the "DC component" of a spike.

When a standby generator comes on-line, the voltage is varying, so there is an Automatic Transfer Switch (ATS) that will keep it isolated from the building power until the generator voltage is correct. So typically, an ATS is monitoring the incoming line voltage and predicts it's failure so that it can start the generator a little ahead of time to attempt to avoid a lag. But that is generally impossible, so in most cases we see a short period of outage right before the ATS switches over, a "flicker" so to speak. When that happens, anything with a transformer or motor in the circuit, which is just about everything now, will see a huge inrush spike as the power is re-established because the transformer windings need to re-establish their magnetic fields. The first parts of this spike may be well in excess of the total load current, and as a result, the generator windings saturate, which causes a ringing effect in the voltage for a few cycles. Because that ringing is decaying all the time, the peak on one side of the sine wave is usually lower in the next 1/2 cycle than the previous one, which means the average voltage between peaks is now offset from zero. In other words the two sides of the sine wave no longer equal each other. The difference is what is called the DC Offset, or DC Component of the spike. It's not really DC, it is a way of describing the NATURE of the spike with relation to a "normal" AC sine wave.

But from a component protection standpoint, it's just a spike. So to that end, power protection devices WILL help you. The cheap little ones in power strips however are not as good as people say they are, and even those that are will usually only function once and burn themselves out in the process. A better plan is to use a SYSTEM surge protection device, such as at each panelboard, and use one with an indicator light that tells you when it is dead so that you can replace it.

__________________
** All I every really wanted to be, was... A LUMBERJACK!.**
Register to Reply Good Answer (Score 5)
Guru
United States - Member - Member Hobbies - DIY Welding - New Member

Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Southeast US of A
Posts: 555
Good Answers: 50
#12

Re: What Does DC Current do to AC Only Devices

09/25/2011 10:38 PM

The BS alarms are going off. Get your boots on.

__________________
Speak softly and carry a big stick.
Register to Reply
5
Guru
Canada - Member - New Member Hobbies - Musician - New Member

Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Western Canada
Posts: 1863
Good Answers: 39
#13

Re: What Does DC Current do to AC Only Devices

09/25/2011 11:13 PM

That must be some ancient generator. Back in the very early seventies we did have generators on board that sent a low DC current through the power wiring to sense if a load such as a light was switched on. That was befoer computers when transistoors wer a new thing in power control. Remember vacuum tubes and thyristors used for voltage control. The DC current flow would activate a relay which in turn started the genset. We had no end of trouble getting them to work as intended. It was advertised as a load sensing feature but it never worked reliably.

__________________
Elnav
Register to Reply Good Answer (Score 5)
Guru
United States - Member - New Member Engineering Fields - Power Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: California, USA, where the Godless live next door to God.
Posts: 4665
Good Answers: 804
#18
In reply to #13

Re: What Does DC Current do to AC Only Devices

09/26/2011 4:50 PM

"That must be some ancient generator. Back in the very early seventies we did have generators on board that sent a low DC current through the power wiring to sense if a load such as a light was switched on. "

You just jogged my memory on something similar! We used to call it a "toe-in-the-water" circuit on large soft starters, because we would send out the low DC votlage pulses and watch the rate of rise in current to see if there was a dead short before gating the SCRs full on into the load. I don't think anyone does that any longer though.

__________________
** All I every really wanted to be, was... A LUMBERJACK!.**
Register to Reply
Register to Reply 19 comments

Good Answers:

These comments received enough positive votes to make them "good answers".

"Almost" Good Answers:

Check out these comments that don't yet have enough votes to be "official" good answers and, if you agree with them, vote them!
Copy to Clipboard

Users who posted comments:

bravo88 (1); elnav (1); JRaef (3); metalSmiths (1); Mikerho (1); Noudge79 (2); raghunath7 (3); RAMConsult (1); regsoft (2); russ123 (2); standarded (1); vsar (1)

Previous in Forum: Induction Heating   Next in Forum: Should Empty Stator of a Tacho be Covered with Metal?

Advertisement