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Overload Wiring

10/05/2011 3:17 PM

hi can someone tell me if it is incorrect to use only 2 poles of a 3 pole thermal overload relay i have noticed a starter on a new single phase workshop saw wired this way will it affect operation of tor thanks

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#1

Re: Overload Wiring

10/05/2011 4:54 PM

Greetings Mike,

Welcome to CR4.

I have seen 3 phase starters operated on two poles for single phase loads, usually the two outboard poles but not in recent memory.

By design of the starter, if any one of the three O/L trips (melts as in thermal O/L's), this opens the hold circuit of the relay, opening the contacts on all three phases simultaneously disconnecting power to the load.

So to answer your question - while this is poor choice and illegal for a single phase load it should not effect the operation of your saw.

I do highly recommend that you remove the three phase starter and install a single pole, HP rated manual motor starter for safe (and legal) operation of your saw.

Regards - KJK

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#2

Re: Overload Wiring

10/05/2011 5:07 PM

Thanks KjK

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#3

Re: Overload Wiring

10/05/2011 5:40 PM

A 3Ph O/L can be used for single phase if connected as shown

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#4

Re: Overload Wiring

10/05/2011 6:53 PM

Hmmm... this is actually more complex that it seems on the surface, and I may get typing cramps before I'm done. It depends on where you are, or actually where your components were made.

  1. If you are in any country OUTSIDE of North America, then there is a 99.9999% chance you will have to use the wiring scheme shown by TonyS above for a single phase motor. This is because most IEC overload relays have a feature that will, in effect, alter the trip curve lower if power is not flowing through all 3 pole of the device. The purpose is to protect 3 phase motors from single phasing because if you lose a phase while the motor is running, it will heat up FASTER at the same amount of current draw that if it had all 3 phases. But I digress... If you have a single phase motor then, an IEC OL relay is wired as Tony showed so that current is passing through all 3 legs. It doesn't matter that one of those circuits is already passing through the other leg, so long as there is current moving through all 3.
  2. If you are in North America, AND you have an old NEMA style bi-metal or eutectic melting alloy OL relay, then that phase loss sensitivity is NOT present and you do NOT need to have power flowing through all 3 legs. So for a single phase motor, where one of the legs is NOT the neutral (i.e. 240V), then yes, you would only run through 2 of the 3 poles. On an old NEMA starter it will just ignore the fact that there is no current on the 3rd pole.
  3. If you are in North America, AND you have a new IEC style OL relay, as is the case with many mfrs now, then the same issues in item 1 apply.
  4. If you are in North America, AND you have a MANUAL motor starter of the old NEMA style, and you have a 120V (Line to Neutral) single phase circuit, then you CANNOT run the Neutral through the OL device, because Manual Motor Starters switch the power poles, not just the coil circuit, and you are not permitted to break the grounded Neutral of a circuit to a motor.
  5. If you are in North America, AND you have a MANUAL motor starter of the IEC style, then the issues of item 1 apply, except again, you cannot break the Neutral with the switch, so you must loop the one Hot wire through ALL THREE of the poles of the device.

Whew...

Side issue: Someone mentioned having seen only 2 OL heaters on 3 phase starters years ago. That WAS true, but became ILLEGAL in 1978 with a change in the NEC that now requires that there is an overload protection device in ALL ungrounded conductors of a motor circuit, single or 3 phase. So if you see one now on a 3 phase motor, it is either older than 1978 and grandfathered in, or you have found one that someone bought off of Fleabay and installed without an inspection, because an Electrical Inspector would have nailed that as a Code violation.

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#5
In reply to #4

Re: Overload Wiring

10/06/2011 12:31 AM

That deserves a finger massage! Very well explained.

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#6
In reply to #4

Re: Overload Wiring

10/06/2011 1:32 AM

JRaef; good answers, comment on answer #4 the code allows you to break both the hot and neutral at the same time, look at all the small computer power supplies. Perry

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#7

Re: Overload Wiring

10/06/2011 2:46 AM

Thanks Raef for the comprehensive reply i am in europe btw

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#8
In reply to #7

Re: Overload Wiring

10/06/2011 7:58 AM

Back to the drawing then.

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#9

Re: Overload Wiring

10/06/2011 8:27 AM

Tony and JR - Excellent answers!!!

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#10

Re: Overload Wiring

10/06/2011 10:57 AM

so is this definitively incorrect on a CE stamped machine made for UK market I noticed a more serious fault but my attention was also drawn to this as it is highly unusual ime

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#11

Re: Overload Wiring

10/07/2011 5:11 AM

It's quite a common thing. 3Ph starters are readily available off the shelf unlike single phase. By altering the wiring as I suggest the protection is correct. Sometimes when close connected contactor / overload (such as Telemecanique) units are used you may have to alter the wiring like this.

The important thing is all 3 elements of the overload must be used otherwise it will trip on phase failure.

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#12

Re: Overload Wiring

10/07/2011 8:15 AM

Yes im familiar with the normal wiring arrangemenr for SP motors using 3 pole starter in this case only 2 poles are used With regard single phasing of 3 phase motors isnt it the increase in line/phase current on the orher 2 Poles that causes trip?

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#13
In reply to #12

Re: Overload Wiring

10/07/2011 7:29 PM

Most thermal O/L's have 3 heating / bimetallic elements. So if 2 bimetallic strips expand and one doesn't it trips as if the motor was single phasing as you say. Some very old units didn't have this feature but to be honest I don't know of any produced now. The old units I'm referring to were from the 40's and 50's. Some modern electronic units may have the facility ignore single phasing but to be honest I really can't see any company doing it if the solution is a piece of wire.

Is it a problem to put a link in so all elements are used?

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JRaef (1); KJK/USA (2); mikehammer67 (4); perry (1); TonyS (4); Tornado (1)

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