Remote Controlled Household Lighting

I would not.

If the remote system fails or goes down for any reason you will have no way to override the system manually.

However, I would look into X-10 or INSTEON. They make both switches and outlets that can be remotely controlled, but also operate like a normal wall switch (i.e., manually).

I have used some of the X-10 devices and they do work, but never got serious about automating my house.

Thanks AH,

I'm a little torn on this myself. If it was new construction it would be a no brainer. I would hard wire everything. In this case, I'm looking at probably 4 zones of lighting, with 3 way switches, dimmers, etc.

I'm going to keep looking around. If I can pull it off, I'm looking at a massive savings, not just in wire, but the labor to pull it all and hook it up will be substantial. I'm working alone. Mostly to save money, but also because it's becoming more frequent that the professionals, (at anything), just end up disappointing me.

I put a ceiling fan w/light in the master a few years ago that works with a remote, and it's great. Granted, the original switch wiring is still in place.

I'm assuming that the receiver is just wired into the lighting circuit, so in a case of failure, I'd be looking at buying a new remote unit and wiring it in. Shouldn't be that drastic.

This just came to me in a PM from Mark,

"Hey lyn, I got too blabby and locked myself out again. Would you put up a post on the lighting thread and let people know that I'll be back on tommorow to respond?"

I work for a Kitchen manufacturer/installer. We buy our under-cabinet led lighting from a Bucher ltd. (next door to us)

Its a good system.. has a smart transformer (with 120v plug) and the lights low voltage wiring plugs into the tx. The smart TX senses the load, and adjusts itself accordingly (as I understand it anyway)

The switches we use are 'touch' controlled.. not remote.. but I don't know all the options.

Chris

Thanks chris,

I hadn't even started thinking about under cabinet lighting, but I'll be needing that too. Looks like a good system. I like the LED concept.

We have an under cabinet touch switch and it stuffed up. I am replacing it with a normal switch: cheaper and it always works.

To operate a clapper product(switch/receptacle) how close should the operator clap his hands?. If two or more devices are installed in close proximity to each other how about discrimination,which will operate when you clap?.

I've used the X10 stuff for 20 years. Cheap and easy. Note: since most houses have two hot wires, you might need a "phase coupler" between them, so that lights on one hot wire can be controlled by remotes on the other. Don't pay big bucks for this, it is a real simple device.

Check smarthome.com for lotsa X10 and other automation stuff.

Thanks SSC.

I just talked to my wife's Dad a little while ago, and he's had a remote switch for his bedroom lighting for years with no trouble. No hard wired switch at all.

Considering the work and money this will save me, (we're probably talking about a week of labor, at least, if I figure in, tearing out and replacing sheetrock, plus about 200' of wire, wall switches, etc.), I think I'm willing to take the risk. If for some reason it isn't up to par, well, I guess I'll go buy wire and sheetrock, and start knocking holes in walls.

This sounds like a blog-in-the-making. Let us know how it works.

I'm thinking about something this for the Minn. house. It needs some additional lighting upstairs and there's no attic over the bedrooms.

I'll let you know. I haven't been able to find anything negative on the internet.

I'm not sure if this will help you. I'll still have to wire all of the lights, just eliminating the wiring to the switches themselves. I think there's a little RF receiver that gets placed in line with the lights. It almost sounds too simple. I guess if I want multiple zones, I just have to make sure each one is on a different frequency.

Nothing but excellent reviews on the Insteon..................X-10 looks good too.

Check out SSCs link.................lots of stuff.

what you need is a light bulb that is quantumly entanglized with a switch!

I need it tornado proof too. Could you get to work on that please?

Did Editor Crankshaft rain on your parade?

first you need a pool of water.... and some big ziploc bags...

you don't need to rip out sheetrock to run wiring

http://www.idealindustries.com/products/tools_totes/saws_drill_bits/flexible_drill_bits.jsp

whether or not this is a good idea depends on attic or basement access

interior walls are the easiest

enjoy

Those are cool. Problem is, the main place I need switches is when walking in the front or back door..................insulated exterior walls. Plus, there are existing live wires in the walls. I'd hate to drill into one of them.

Thanks for the link though, that looks like it would be handy for running the can light wiring.

sometimes you can go from a corner & end up with only a 1" hole or 2 to repair

they have a hole so you can pull the wire back when you are removing the bit from the wall

if you use the extensions, notch the shaft where they mate so you don't accidentially pull them apart in the wall

Check www.remotecentral.com, they have a whole forum dedicated to lighting and home control, plus lotsa other neat stuff. Get a big drink, you can spend all night there. I'm tweakman on that site, if you want to see my enlightened (pun!) posts.

So SSCpal,

I guess you're telling me that I have nothing to worry about by not hardwiring the switches and just going with the remotes. I just need to hear it.

Also, lets say I want 4 zones, all on 3 way switches w/dimmers, and independent of each other. Can you point me to a specific set of units I should be looking at?

I'm looking on the web, and I'm having a hard time figuring out exactly what I need.

I'm not looking for full automation, just controls for some recessed lighting. Switches can be wall mount. I don't need hand held remote controls.

Thanks.

probably best to stick with a big name so when it gives up in a few years, you'll be able to replace it

http://www.homedepot.com/Electrical-Dimmers-Switches-Smart-Home-Lighting-Controls/h_d1/N-5yc1vZbnna/R-202453950/h_d2/ProductDisplay?langId=-1&storeId=10051&catalogId=10053

&

http://www.homedepot.com/Electrical-Dimmers-Switches-Smart-Home-Lighting-Controls/h_d1/N-5yc1vZbnna/R-202453948/h_d2/ProductDisplay?langId=-1&storeId=10051&catalogId=10053

I'm not seeing CFL compatible dimmers & wireless

for $120/per I could get pretty creative in routing some wire

I've played the trying to hook 2 fish tapes in the middle of the wall more than once, or the a box with a blind cover so I can get around a corner...

I'll go look at Home Depot and Lowes.

I know what you're saying about the wire, but trust me, if I can get away from wired wall switches, it'll save me a lot of time and headaches. The panel is in a corner of my basement, and running the lighting wires up into the first floor ceiling will be pretty easy. Running wired 3 ways on 4 separate zones...............yeah, I can do it, but not easily.

Aacckk! HD and Lowes won't have what you want. Tell me what type remotes you'd like, do you want dimming, fade on/off, scene presets or other features, and I'll point you to the right place.

Just simple on/off and dimming, same as I'd do with standard 3 way switches. I don't need anything fancy, just reliable. The standard wall switches that I can attach with double sided tape or velcro is fine too, or I can cut a hole to make them look like regular switches. I'm looking at 4 zones, with a max of 6 lights per zone. Maybe 3 zones/runs. I know that somehow I'm making this more complicated than it needs to be, but I've never actually seen them in person.

Garthh, The thing with wiring up 3 ways, is not so much the switches themselves, but everything in the basement ceiling has to be tidy. I'd have to route all those wires so they don't block or interfere with other existing wiring, plumbing, gas lines, duct work or anything else that I may have to work on in the future.

I don't quite get the problem.

You have to supply power to the lights, so where does the 'more jerking' come into it?

Never wired a house, I guess? Else you'd know.

Wired/rewired several. Are you guys are wedded to 'loop';

rather than single feed approach?

Explain to me how this works if you want independent control of multiple lights on a single circuit, and how this works for lights on different circuits.

I appreciate the effort 34, but I want to be able to turn on lights in different zones when I walk in the front door, or the kitchen door. I also want to be able to control the lights from within each zone, as well as dimming capability. This would require multiple 3 way circuits, and would require lots of wire and lots of labor to accomplish in a house that already has finished walls, etc. Not to mention drilling holes through the ceiling joists in a 900 sq. ft. basement to get the wires where they need to go.

I'll be a real happy camper if I can avoid all that.

X-10 easily can do all that. They have controllers that mount right in the wall sockets.

Smart House

I'll spend some time on the sites. I don't want to overkill it, and spend money on features I don't need. I don't care about being able to program them or anything like that. 3-4 zones, 2 switches for each zone, one with dimming capability, each zone on a different frequency, that's it.

SSCpal,

If you don't know a system off the top of your head, don't worry about it, I'll find it.

I'm not looking for you to spend a lot of time on my project. I'll make some calls tomorrow.

I eat this stuff up. I'm a retired EE and love every chance to design. Don't buy until I get back to you. Give me 24 hours and you won't be sorry.

I appreciate it. There's no rush. I haven't even laid out my lighting locations yet. I have lots of other stuff to do first. Thanks.

To Kram and Lyn

The diagrams are only about the cabling approach - as said you have to run power to the lights anyway ...

In "loop" you use and extra cable from the light to the switch (2 cables to jerk)

In "series" you switch the run. (single cable to jerk)

In series, using a 3 core*, you can do 'hallway switching' at either end and/or mid run.

The 'switches' can be any kind, inc 'remote'. If remote, and at the fitting, then you are doing a 'short loop' or 'series' - depending on terminals and whatnot. But basically, as I read the situation, the only 'saving' in remote is the additional jerking of a loop switching cable, which 'series' obviates.

_{(*assuming the fittings need not be earthed)}

This shows the hard wiring procedure.

If I go the RF remote route/battery operated switches with RF receivers on each zone, I will be able to eliminate all switch to switch wiring, as well as switch to light wiring, which is substantial.

All I will have to do is run wire from the panel to the lights themselves, which still won't be fun, but it's a nice straight shot.

If you want to be cool, it's PLC (power line control), not RF. The signals travel thru the power wiring, not thru the aether. Your personalized design is imminent.

I gave up trying to be cool long ago. Thanks for the clarification.

Like I said, no hurry. Just knowing that it's doable is exciting. Running all that wire is one of the reasons I've been dragging my feet on this project. Let me know if you need any more info.

Oh..................my wife also informed me this morning, that she wants me to pull out the existing kitchen cabinets, move windows, plumbing, electrical, sheetrock, tile, etc., without making a dusty mess in the house. Oh joy.

What you need for that part is very large zip lock plastic bags. Big enough for say an airplane.

How big is that headliner?

I painted the roof of my carport with an automotive spray gun without any big amount of overspray by using a very high flow exhaust fan to create a big air movement. It sucked the paint over spray all over the fan, but the contents remained almost spotless. If you get a high flow pedestal mounted fan and put it in a door leading outside, and then block as much else of the doorway as possible with heavy plastic sheeting, you should drag the airborne dust outside.

you want what you want & that's fine

aren't you one who complains about how unnecessarily complicated / expensive electronics make cars?

if you can't run down to the hardware for replacement parts, don't forget to buy some spares

when doing wiring with conduit you sometimes use pull boxes for convenience, works for romex too.

colored tape is your friend, it will help you ID stuff in the future, tape all the way back to where the wire disappears into the jacket

flex will help keep it tidy in the basement

& allows you to use loose wire instead of romex[cheaper]

pull one wire in before you install it makes your life easier, when it's time to do the pull... wire is easier than a fishtape to deal with

whatever size flex/conduit you think you need, use the next bigger size

Yes, I have made that complaint.

I don't think these particular systems are either expensive or complicated. I also can't find anything on the web that says that they are unreliable. I'm sure some are better than others. Both the X-10 and INSTEON systems get high marks across the board.

If I have to wire it, I'll use romex. Thanks for the suggestion, but using metal flex conduit would just add one more step to the hard wiring process. It would still have to be fished around existing plumbing, electrical, gas lines, and ductwork in the basement ceiling.

1 flex looks better than 6 romex, also easier to update...

just like a GFCI is complicated, expensive & more prone to failure than a simple outlet, so are these devices.

sounds like your wife just made hardwire more likely

Not the clearest I've seen, but still applies to 'series'.

I guess the base difference is; 'series' means getting the power feed to the first switch on a run - as opposed to using 'loops' down to 'wall plates' - which is mostly about 'in ceiling' power wiring convenience, in an open frame, during construction.

Yes. It's all about being easier. For me to put in wired 3 ways, with dimmers, we're looking at 4 zones, at least 2 switches per zone, and an average run between switches of about 30'. That's just to tie the switches together. Then I also have to join the switches to the ceiling lighting for each zone. Mucho Worko!

Another cool thing, if this works out, is that I've got existing, (hard wired), switches that control ceiling lighting in the different zones. They're not configured the way I want them though, not 3 way, and no dimmers.

Assuming I can make this work, all I have to do is remove the existing switches, join the wires together, make the existing switch boxes into junction boxes, and bingo.................I've got power to the ceiling in each zone. From there it's just a matter of wiring in the recessed lighting. I won't have to do anything in the basement at all.

Might be easier if you trace and map what you have and post it.

Using existing 2 core to draw in a 3, is often quite easy - (or a total bitch)

No problem. This pretty much covers it.

One switch to one light.

Thanks for explaining.

I feel your pain. I've been doing this stuff for a long time, and it makes my head hurt sometimes. Endless variations, 37 ways to skin a cat (horrible expression!)

Do you want your controls to be handheld, or on-wall or tabletop units? I use mostly tabletops...the others need batteries and handhelds get lost.

You mention 3 way switches. With X10 you can have as many remotes as you want; there is no such thing as a 3 way switch.

Lemme poke around and get back to you.

I am faced with the same problem. In my case I have a hacked up circa 1900 New England style house with mostly lath and plaster walls and ceilings and many generations of electrical wiring. The stairway to the third floor (remodeled attic) bedrooms has a single ceiling fixture at the top with a pull chain switch. It really needs a 3-way circuit with switches at the foot of the stairs and the third floor landing, but this is a real "you can't get there form here" situation. What I need is a receiver/contactor that will fit in the ceiling box and wireless wall mount switches for the second and third floor landings.

I think you found the right thread! This sounds like an ideal solution for your situation.

Let's see what SSCpal comes up with.

I have a neighbor with a 100+ year old house. Man-oh-man, it makes my situation look like a cake walk. At least I can wire it if I have too. Tearing into lath and plaster walls is a nightmare.

I've seen people use that cheap plastic or metal conduit, tacked above the base board for your application, but it's exposed, and it's ugly.

Thanks man! I owe you one.

A few questions:

1) What's the failure rate on the X-10s?

2) If I have a failure, it looks like the solution is as easy as ordering up a new unit.

3) Is there an online installation guide/manual to look at? I haven't checked yet.

4) I can handle the panel work. I've been in there plenty, and will be in there to run outlet wiring anyway. Since we're on an engineering site, I don't think it would hurt to throw up the quick and dirty methods. There are lots of answers on here that could get people hurt if they have no idea of what they're doing. The assumption is that most of us are smart enough not to risk our lives attempting something we know absolutely nothing about. Those people do show up once in a while though.

Thanks for the info. I'll dig in and have a look at the different units.

1) X10's are cheap and you might have some infant mortality. But I have modules that are decades old.

2) Yes, and I always keep a few spares around.

3) You can find manuals on smarthome and the other sites, and read some of the posts on remotecentral to get a feel for what others have done.

4) OK, the cheap solution is to bridge across the phases with a capacitor, say 600 volts, 0.01 or 0.1 uF. That's what I do. Radio Shack has them for a buck or so. Please trip the main breaker before working, I would feel bad if you got fried.

Good luck and welcome to the wonderful world of home automation.

Thanks again.

I would feel bad if I got fried too.

I think that this is the solution to my problem too. www.the X10shop appears to have everything I will need

• 1 XPDF inline fixture module for light fixture
• 2 SS13A wireless wall switches for top and bottom of stairs
• 1 TM751 transceiver (RF to x10) plug into any wall outlet

All for $39

Thanks for the great lead

Really good prices there. I need to shop around.

I have a flat roof in an addition that is part of my house. The room was wired to have ceiling fans with light and fan controlled by pull chains. And the wall that I wanted the switch on was an exterior wall from before the addition. I spliced into the one power box in the ceiling and split it to two boxes. One I set up for track lights, and the other for a normal ceiling lamp. The track is wired with a dim-able remote, and the other light is a simple on-off remote. It has been up for almost ten years now. Batteries in the track remote never seem to go bad. The other needs a battery about every 2 years. I have stick on switch for the ceiling light that no longer sticks to the wall. So we just stuck it to the dinning room table. Great when guests come over. It looks just like a permanently installed switch mounted to a table.

I don't remember the brand that I bought any more, but I am sure it came from Home Depot. Good luck.

Yep, that's all I need. I'm liking the X-10 stuff.

The ceiling fan I put in my master bedroom works great..............it's RF. On/off/dim for the light, as well as off and 3 speeds for the fan, all in a remote about the size and shape of a clam shell. I think it's been about 4 years. I still haven't changed the battery.

Sometimes technology is our friend.

will it withstands a EMP?

Will I?

you need

Absolutely!

What do I do with the silver byproducts?

Wrap up corn on the cob and bake them in the fire.

Switch on a table! I love that, I'm gonna do it just to mess with people.

That is the only reason.