4 Joists Cut for New Plumbing - Never Fixed

I hear the frustration.

So give us a bit of detail and perhaps some of the sharp folks around here can come up with a suggestion

Thank you all for the encouragement....here goes. My house is 1927 clay block walls with framing resting on outer blocks. original bathroom floor was poured concrete between joists, encasing plumbing-cast iron. Plumber hired for graywater system instead decided to spend time taking out old iron and replacing with PVC, but ran out of room to place everything, so 'notched ' joists to place pvc directly in line with where joist should sit. Found to have disregarded plumbing code and ordered to repair but engineer drawing states simply "attach' to wall. Since there are now 3 joists cut through how do they make repair, then fix plumbing? They've already jackhammered about 1/3 of concrete which has taken a toll on house and family, leaving a cast-iron tub held up by a furring strip on 1 side. The building dept passed the plumbing insp, but didn't address structural issues since the GC failed to get a permit- hence no inspection. there are

Yikes!

OK, so you have a multitude of problems; legal, structural, etc.

Some not clear statements:

concrete poured between joists - My mind's eye shows typical floor joists sitting on ground now filled to brim with concrete and now level with the tops of the joists?

so now the plumber came in and chopped holes in the concrete floor, cutting across joists?

If what my mind is envisioning is accurate, the presence or absence of the joists may not matter if you can fill the voids with concrete.

But that seems obvious, so maybe I am misunderstanding.

to clarify

Ummm, this looks like a problem to me.

Per my post #7, If the GC is unwilling to rectify this work, hire an engineer on your own and independent of the GC and move forward from there.

If the GC agrees to rectify this work tell him you want the repairs to be certified by a structural engineer on his dime.

From this point forward, all correspondence between you, the GC, and the (new) structural engineer should be in writing.

Let us know the outcome.

Please post a clearer, more comprehensive, statement of the problem, so that the forum can better understand it and assist.

And this post makes three individuals willing to assist you.

We need more information from you in order for us to give you information to move forward.

Greetings terre,

Sorry to hear of your problems.

Is it possible for you to post some pictures of the "notched joists"? EDIT - Just saw the pictures - thanks

A couple questions I have;

1. Do you have a dually executed (you and the GC) contract stating exactly what work was to be done backed up by plans and specifications?
   
2. Have you made your final payment to the GC yet?
3. Were any enforceable codes or laws violated by the GC's failure to pull a (structural?) permit?
   
4. Was removal of the cast-iron plumbing part of the original scope of work or outlined in the contract documents?

You will need to hire a structural engineer on your own dime. Have this engineer inspect the areas that were modified.

If he/she signs off on the modifications as being acceptable (in writing) then my advise to you would be don't concern yourself with the structural modifications.

If on the other hand, the engineer finds that the modifications to the structure are unacceptable (in writing) you should have recourse through civil litigation.

I know, you are probably saying "great, now I have to even spend more money" (as I would) but this is the only remedy that I can see for you and if the ruling is in your favor, you should be able to re-coup your expenses.

Hi and thanks for answering. I'm not sure if those questions are rhetorical or you really want to know- if so you're the first. To clarify, for myself also, we had a contract with plumber for repipe and repair previous work- he pulled permit. Building dept maintains that no drawing was needed- even now- but after passing rough-in, finally brought issue before Plumbing Board who found 'improper notching' and ordered plumber to make repairs. The GC actually testified at hearing for plumber, when asked if HE pulled permit, answered no, he didn't think he needed to because there was already one. Both contracters decline to admit they cut anything, stating they used existing openings. The supports in picture were only placed after plumber called someone to repair it and they advised to, however that contracter subsequently cancelled permit after building inspector stated to him that expanding crack over the adjacent doorway was 'unrelated'.

The latest contracter I spoke with suggests ripping everything out to have a look, THEN calling in his engineer- of course 'time and materials' and no drawings, and the building dept wants to simply transfer the permit. Everyone thinks it's a simple matter to just hire someone, but as soon as a woman starts asking questions they get offended, because they've been doing this for 30 years! But thanks for responding, and if there's anyone who sees a funny tv show in this, I could use a laugh......

"I'm not sure if those questions are rhetorical or if you really want to know"

Yes, I really want to know. I think the contractor(s) did a $hit job for you so much so that I, even though am not personally involved, I'm even pi$$ed about the job, especially since seeing the pictures.

I asked the questions I did to try and explore your options.

Where are you from? US, Europe, Canada?????

Just trying to nail down options for you.

I do not see any need to rip everything out to have a look-see. The pictures look pretty obvious to me that this is a hack job that can be seen with the naked eye.

I still say that an independent, expert evaluation is needed. Unfortunately, this will cost you money and time.

Did the crack appear over the doorway since these joists were cut?

As far as the contractor(s) denying that they cut anything, the "Notched" wood over the PVC pipe looks like a fresh cut to me!

Wow. Just plain, old, honest-to-goodness wow.

This has been going on for two years? Wow.

I am getting a vision... I see your future... I see... I see an office... yes, I see you sitting in an office that has a lawyer's license hanging on the wall.

If you can't get anyone at city hall to help you with this ridiculous mess, an attorney may be your last recourse. It is unfortunate that long before you get done dinkin' around with all of that you can have a competent contractor fix it and be done with it.

This doesn't look insurmountable, but it is a mess. It is hard to believe there are "professionals" who will leave anybody with this kind of a problem and feel okay about cashing their check.

Not going to get grief around here.

But if you live someplace central I think we could put together a crew to beat your contractors silly.

I 'might' consider letting one of them repair it - since it is highly repairable.

But I too don't think you are going to get there without a lawyer. I don't think I'd worry as much about having or not having a contract, just get an independent to assess the work for compliance with either local code or any other standards.

If you live in a tiny town, bring someone in from another town. You may have to get a lawyer from another town. But that work is not acceptable by any standard and I'd do my best to have their asses.

"I think we could put together a crew to beat your contractor silly"

Or at least, take his tools away

Count me in

Thank you all for the encouraging words. I've been struggling with these issues (and more, but I'll spare you) for so long that even though I try to teach my kids to start with themselves when figuring out what went wrong, I also am a believer in accountability from a professional and to not lose faith that laws are for our protection- meaning building codes,etc, and officials answering to the public, but this has been challenging. I wonder how the average working person, not educated in these professions is able to navigate through procedures to ever make a claim, assuming they are aware of what really goes on sometimes.....but it's refreshing to come to a place where people still have enough interest(in their own profession) and integrity to get involved.....