How to Neutralize Chlorine Corrosion

Not touchin' that one again.

What's everything made of? I assume concrete, brass, ceramic tile, Metal bird??? Plate stand????steel plastic aluminum? and color?

Pump brand and PN if you don't know the materials of construction(of everything)

Hey Lyn,

Glad to be back, but, did you also ask the question of "WHY" in the first place?

Just askin'

Gar

Where wives are concerned, one never asks "WHY".

Welcome back and thank you for your service to our country.

Thank Goodness I've got 30 days to come up to speed...

Wife and "WHY" are never connected in the same sentence, ever.Need I "tell you three times"? (obscure reference).

The WHY? question was directed to the fountain, but as is often the case, we who have more than one brain cell in abeyance just CANNOT resist going a tad farther afield.

Did I say "Home is Nice"?

Add salt to the fountain and scrap the chlorine. Ever seen plants (algae) grow in salt?

I converted my pool to a salt system a few months back, but that system converts salt to chlorine but a friendlier kind. Ihink I'll try the salt in the fountains after I go through the remainng chlorine tablets I have left, but what will neautralize the corrostion going on right now. The wife is going to start painting the bird and plant stand and I fear, like rust, it will just keep eating away beneath the paint.

You need to treat the steel products first with "Evapo-Rust" rust remover, then prime and paint it with a good quality rust prohibitive paint.

You can buy this product at the local Tractor Supply store or online directly from the company.....I'm sure if it's available yet from either Lowe's or HD. I swear by this stuff, and have been using around the house and on the vehicles for the last 5 years or so....never had a reoccurring rust problem since I've been using it!

www.evaporust.com

I lookerd through the threads, I may have missed it, how much salt should be added.

Do you have to be concerned about nucleation build-up?, or is the content not to be worried about.

A through water wash should remove all the left over traces of Chlorine. The drying and painting should be fine.

Chlorine dissolves in water to give HOCl and HCl, while the former is useful for Chlorination, but the later corrodes badly. Both are acidic and to neutralize you have to add alkali (base). Washing soda solution should do the job, but should be very careful in not adding too much, since it has its own nascence value. It may digest the concrete if in excess. If you could get litmus paper, you can test and add just enough alkali solution. Litmus is a coloring material (obtained from lichens) that turns red in acid solutions and blue in alkaline solutions, used as a very rough acid-base indicator

Yes. We use to use phosphatizer to degrease and etch raw metal for painting. We have a drainage for the run off but it still runs out into the lot we have were it puddles up. We have to test it periodically and it's ok for it to do that as long as the PH value does not exceed PH7.

On the tenth day, the Good Lord, invented the Pressure Washer. On the eleventh day he commanded that: " Thou shalt scrub and neutralize all residues that are offensive to Me".

r/s,

Gar

obfuscation: " To make things and or issues as clear as mud.

Yes.

Yeah, salt use is a good one, instead of chlorine tabs.

You could also use bromide tablets or powder instead...that's what is used in hot tubs and spas to prevent chemical attack of the plastic, etc.

Continuous movement of water is a great inhibiter of algae, insects and bacti. WHy use anything? if/is the fountain is in continuous use?

CHlorine in contact with water or moisture converts to hydrocloric acid. SOdium, salt is a product of chlorine. BOth corrosive depending on dosage.

Maintained (chlorine) at levels of less than .07ppm, cheap testers can tell you this, will inhibit algae, insects and bacti and will not be anywhere near corrosive as you are experiencing now........good luck

Using bromide? Now, that is a bright one! Nowadays everybody gets too little Iodine with less consumption of iodized table salt. Bromide is a biochemical poison by competing with iodine you badly need for your thyroid. No need to poison yourself, even if it is a permitted process. You absorb minerals thru the bathwater iust fine.

And keep those chlorine tablets to what really needed. More is not merrier.

Priceless...and predictable. You don't think bromide is acceptable? What is the pH and hardness of the water? No information given? Iron and sulphur content? '

You know, I had to take a year of Chemistry in College...hated it and barely passed. Isn't everything "poison" in the correct proportion? For instance...If my friends and I drank 28 beers and 6 shots of Jack Daniels each, wouldn't we have a problem? How about if that happened over a one week period?

From time to time people gain or lose credibility by absorbing before attacking. But then again, that is just the whimsical musings of a country boy.

WTF leveles? Totally uncalled-for attack.....

If you had done your homework properly, then you would know that Bromide, along with chlorine and Iodine, are all used in water disinfection, potable or otherwise. IF applied in safe dosages it will not harm the human body, but it will kill of microbes, other parasitic nasties, etc. Safe dosages apply to any chemical, natural or manmade......

Bromide (or Potassium Bromide) is routinely used in treating pool water and hot tub/spa water because chlorine ions can attack the plastic in the spas. I routinely use it in my spa, because if I don't I'll void the manufacturer's warranty (it's specifically stated in the Owner's Manual).

Q: Do you eat seafood? I'm sure you even eat veggies of all types (unless you're a "Manly Man" and therefore only eat only steak and taters), right?

Here's a fact Jack: Bromide is present in typical seawater with a concentration of around 65 mg/L, which is around 0.2% of all dissolved salts. Seafoods generally have high levels of bromide, while foods derived from land have variable amounts.

In regard to your statements about Iodine consumption: Yes, there is a marked decrease in consumption of Iodized Table Salt amongst the population, and for good reason, but that decrease is PRIMARILY due to the populace using too much salt, thereby resulting in HYPERTENSION with the side effects of increased heart attacks and strokes. I'm not wrong on this whatsoever....I come from a Medical Family, and my wife is a NYS Registered Nurse for 34 years.

[BTW, for your information I am a water treatment professional currently Licensed & Registered as a Professional Engineer in NY, PA, CT, NJ & MA, and my duel BSCE (RIT), MSCE (RPI) and PhD (Carngie-Mellon U.) degrees all involved extensive water chemistry and water treatment curricula.]

I said my peace....enough of this "Happy Horsechit"....

Capt.,

THIS reply was way better than even watching an A-10 rain it's particular sound of imminent destruction all over the place... (film at 11)! Tell me, please as you are able, why it is NOT possible/probable that ordinary folks do NOT read the instructions of the generic products that they are attempting to utilize?

Baffled, but still glad to be back,

GLB

Hey there GLB, the A-10 "Hog" is one of my favorite aircraft.....saved my freaking bacon (and that of my troops) during DS by providing CAS during our overrun of the Iraqi AF base at Tallil. Those aircraft and their pilots were definitely from the 23rd TFW outta England AFB, as one cannot miss those menacing Shark's mouths painted on the AC nose! To this day whenever I encounter an A-10 pilot, or a retired one, I always offer to buy 'em a beer or a stiff one.....be it at Legion Hall, a VFW Hall, at a base OC, or whatever have you! One of those guys probably saved my life and those under my Command, so it's a small payback, after all we're all Brothers-In-Arms. Same goes for the Viper drivers (my own brother flew F-16C's during DS....he was with the 17th TFW "Hooters" (Shaw AFB). They came in after the Hogs dropping CBU's, thus finishing the opposition once and for all.

I can attest to the real nastiness of the 30mm AGU-8 Avenger gun carried on the Hog....utter destruction to the "X-max" man, with hardly anything left standing and not chewed-up literally. And quite the light show! It's no wonder the Iraqi POW's were scared to death of it...they spoke of the "Whispering Death"....ditto with the Daisey Cutters that the USAF dropped on the poor bastards. Also, they were so shelled shocked from the repeated B-52G/H Arc Light strikes day and night.

Aside: I never understood why peeps can't read the instructions and directions before using any product. My old man, a Ret. Col., always said to us kids as we were growing up (and beyond) "When all else fails, read the F*cking instructions!". Oh man, was he right on that one! or, "Fix it with a hammer; always works for me!" LMAO

Hallo Capt. and #12. It appears, that a little learning (#8) is too much to ask. That note clearly stated the effect of Iodine vs. bromide on the human being.

A short recap chemistry for the 2 chemists:

Halogen: Fluoride, Chlorine, Bromide, Iodine. Most aggressive first, least one last. The more aggressive can replace the lesser, not the other way around.

In biochemistry (remember, human beings) the same substitution occurs frequently. An example everybody ought to know, when carbon monoxide binds, where oxygen is normally transported. You can die from it due lack of oxygen. But I digress.

I went into the first biological database, that came to mind. Once I got the wording right, dozens of works popped out, some from the 1950s. I trust, man's body did not change in the meantime. But it is possible, the knowledge did not trickle down to other professions taught, in the last 60 or so years..

The first one specifically talks about thyroid hormone:

Chem Pharm Bull (Tokyo). 1993 Mar;41(3):430-2. Effect of inorganic anions on the binding of thyroxine by bovine serum albumin. Okabe N, Hokaze M. Source Faculty of Pharmaceutical Sciences, Kinki University, Osaka, Japan. Abstract The fluorescence method was used to investigate the effect of inorganic anions, SCN-, I-, ClO4- and Br- on the binding of thyroxine (T4) by bovine serum albumin (BSA). The apparent binding constants were evaluated in 0.1M sodium phosphate buffer, pH 7.4 at 25 degrees C containing various concentrations of the anions up to 0.15M. Their values decreased at high anion concentrations. The effectiveness of anions in reducing T4 binding was in the following order: SCN- > I= > ClO4- > Br-. Thermodynamic parameters determined in the presence of 0.1M SCN- suggested that the hydrophobic interaction between T4 and BSA could be reduced by these inorganic anions. PMID: 8386593 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

The next talks about the interaction of various halogens;

J Gen Physiol. 1988 Jun;91(6):835-60. Interactions of bromide, iodide, and fluoride with the pathways of chloride transport and diffusion in human neutrophils. Simchowitz L. Source Department of Medicine, John Cochran Veterans Administration Medical Center, St. Louis, MO 63125. Abstract Isolated human neutrophils possess three distinct pathways by which Cl- crosses the plasma membrane of steady state cells: anion exchange, active transport, and electrodiffusion. The purpose of the present work was to investigate the selectivity of each of these separate processes with respect to other external halide ions. (a) The bulk of total anion movements represents transport through an electrically silent anion-exchange mechanism that is insensitive to disulfonic stilbenes, but which can be competitively inhibited by alpha-cyano-4-hydroxycinnamate (CHC; Ki approximately 0.3 mM). The affinity of the external translocation site of the carrier for each of the different anions was determined (i) from substrate competition between Cl- and either Br-, F-, or I-, (ii) from trans stimulation of 36Cl- efflux as a function of the external concentrations of these anions, (iii) from changes in the apparent Ki for CHC depending on the nature of the replacement anion in the bathing medium, and (iv) from activation of 82Br- and 125I- influxes by their respective ions. Each was bound and transported at roughly similar rates (Vmax values all 1.0-1.4 meq/liter cell water.min); the order of decreasing affinities is Cl- greater than Br- greater than F- greater than I- (true Km values of 5, 9, 23, and 44 mM, respectively). These anions undergo 1:1 countertransport for internal Cl-. (b) There is a minor component of total Cl- influx that constitutes an active inward transport system for the intracellular accumulation of Cl- [( Cl-]i approximately 80 meq/liter cell water), fourfold higher than expected for passive distribution. This uptake is sensitive to intracellular ATP depletion by 2-deoxy-D-glucose and can be inhibited by furosemide, ethacrynic acid, and CHC, which also blocks anion exchange. This active Cl- uptake process binds and transports other members of the halide series in the sequence Cl- greater than Br- greater than I- greater than F- (Km values of 5, 8, 15, and 41 mM, respectively). (c) Electrodiffusive fluxes are small. CHC-resistant 82Br- and 125I- influxes behave as passive leak fluxes through low-conductance ion channels: they are nonsaturable and strongly voltage dependent. These anions permeate the putative Cl- channel in the sequence I- greater than Br- greater than Cl- with relative permeability ratios of 2.2:1.4:1, respectively, where PCl approximately 5 X 10(-9) cm/s. PMID: 3047312 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] PMCID: PMC2217627 Free PMC Article Publication Types, MeSH Terms, Substances, Grant Support

there are plenty more, but these are enough to show halogen interaction in the human body.

I have the greatest respect and trust for nurses in their profession. But, this was a question for a different profession. And biochemistry is not your field either, Capt.

OK, I'm only going to say (teach) this point one more time.

If a solution of 200 parts bromide to 1 parts water is consumed, a different result will occur than if a 0.00000002 parts bromide to 1 parts water is consumed.

It is obvious to the casual (and quite entertained) member that reading (other posts) is not a strong suit of yours. Try to keep up.

Oh and by the way....you can get more respect with sugar than you can with vinegar (vitriol).

Also, lay off the Moose, he is way out of your league.

Hey, I missed this forum so much!! Just back from a year and a half in beautiful, downtown Afganistan! So, when I was an Oregon State Certified P-O (Pool Operator) and took all of the "happy Classes" you were given a specific list of the corrosive elements (i.e. the common 3 inch tablet) and the various interactions with the most likely to be encountered "reactors". This is really nothing more than identifying all items on a galvanic scale. Out here on the "Coast" ( and I don't mean to be flip, but I just stood ouside for an hour and a half being "drizzled upon"), there is a certain artsy-craftsy movement to the "patina".

To answer the direct question of: "...what can I use to stop the corrosion and clean up the floor stain?" there is product in the Western United States called "CLR": generally a good remedial measure.

Sorry folks, but I've just come out of that "PAR" (Problems:Actions:Results) mindset. So, Is your "fountain porch" pump outdoor rated and/or designed for chlorine use?

Although I do NOT recommend this as an alternative, 18 Months, 3 days and 22 hours "Out of Country" will allow the "War Department" to do whatever she wishes. We (who have served, been/are married, blah, blah) understand the concept of "...and, preserving domestic tranquility..."

To, realistically, STOP THE CORROSION, ask yourself what the intended purpose of adding the Chlorine to the fountain was in the first place? Most Pool/Spa pumps are Chlorine friendly. Most Brass front door trim is NOT.

Respectfully submitted,

GLB (USAF and SOON to be [ret.], one more time, again!)

WELCOME BACK HOME TROOP, AND THANK YOU FOR SERVING!

==Signed,

CaptMoosie

(former USA/USAR...14 years service.....Vet of Grenada & DS).

BTW, my sole son reports for USAF BMT next week...his MOS will be Combat Controller once he passes his AIT, etc.

HOOO-AAHHH! (sorry for the Army term, but I now fly "right seat" for the Local Veterans Employment Representative [USA, ret.]). It is a PROUD day when the next generation finds (in their very own way of working things out...) the "call to service". My oldest daughter found that and now (as of Aug. 2010) out-ranks me with her "Oak Leaf". And, surely, I get those phone calls at 0200 hrs. from Aviano in Italy that say "ALL IS WELL"! The subtext is always 'for today'... In our family, she is FOURTH generation!

It was NOT part of our AFCS (Air Force Career Specialty) that we had a determined part in the water supply issues around Khandahar. We (ALL services, BTW, and in the process there was NO distinction between officer and enlisted) were mostly a bunch of 'country boys and girls' that broke our backs with picks and shovels to make our "hosts" a better way of life. This was truly a Hand-up rather than the common hand-out.

I can only express a humble "thank-you" to the Army, Navy, Air Force, Marine Corps and United States Coast Guard personnel that I was HONORED to serve with in Afghanistan

. And, in this day and time of great suspiscions, I WILL add in the awesome work of the civilian contractors who make that armpit bearable. I owe my life to a simple: "Duck, Sucker"!!

DS??? 27 sorties in 10 days as part of the 22nd AREFS refuling mission. Sleep? Still catchin' up on that in 2011...

Best on your son and respectfully submitted,

GLB

A chlorine was added to all our fountains to stop algae that likes Florida water, standing or not. My 27K gal pool would get the green stuff in it if I let the chlorine ppm drop. It just got to be too expensive at five bucks a jug and I got tired of getting out the kitty litter pans, putting the jugs in them, lugging it back from the pool store, and ruining my clothes if not careful. When I started with the pool thing back in 1996, chlorine was 2.20 a jug. Anyway, the salt system while initially expensive, takes that headache away. But, as I said at the beginning of this post, the tablets were left over and the wife found a purpose for them. If the water didn't splash, we would have no problem. She likes to hear the water splash and gurgle; me, it makes me want to pee.

It's the small sacrifices that one makes that keeps the little woman happy, I guess.

_{Have you ever considered just peeing out there in the yard, beside the fountain?}

_{Oh, Hel, if you really want to get her attention, just pee in the fountain.}

The birds and other wildlife must really love the chlorine.

You didn't say how big the fountain was, but a 3-inch tab sounds like a lot of available chlorine. Consider that chlorine loses it effectiveness as the pH rises above 8. If the fountain is is pH 9 or higher, you're getting little benefit and a lot of staining for little gain. Look to control the pH with the same acid you use for the pool but, obviously, at a much, much, much lower dose. Then consider switching to a little shot of Clorox. Finally, are you bleeding the fountain? If you're just adding water to the fountain to maintain the water level, you're concentrating minerals and the stabilizer used to make the chlorine tabs. This also tends to increase the pH. Essentially, you've got something similar to an evaporative cooling tower, so bleeding a little water from the system could help.

In a different application, I measure out a small amount of household bleach. It does not take much and does the job of keeping the water clean. Your clean up job is a whole different animal to get it looking good again. (I put 150 ml in 300 gallons so you do not need very much!)

It only takes one cap full of bleach to a gallon of water to make a solution strong enough to sanitize food handling surfaces.

She has to stop doing that. Chorine is a major corrosive. We manufacture machinery used in packinghouses. Some of our customers use water that consists of 3% clorine to water. We had to change bearings and rough top belting and to Stainless Steel and Carboxilated Nitril because the chorine was too corrosive. Not only that if the EPA found our they could probably have a fields day on you guys because you're using those chlorine tablets for something they're not designed to do. You have no controls on them.

You make a good point about EPA, not necessarily that there is any fear that our homeowner friend will be cited for violating federal regulations, but that there are regulations that should be followed for safety's sake. EPA regulates pesticides and product used to control pests, be they algae, bacteria or rats, is a pesticide. Pesticides must be registered with the EPA. And, most importantly, they have an EPA-approved label that says where and how they must be used. There is not "off-label" use for a registered pesticide. The first task is to read and follow the label. You will find dosing instructions and where the product should be used (and sometimes, where it shouldn't be used).

I find that hydrogen peroxide is pretty good for getting rid of stains caused by HCL. Or you could use a little bit of "oxyclean" to do the same job, then rince it away.

A better solution to using pool pucks would be to Shock it with a bit of pool shock once a month or so, (either bromine or chlorine) but you won't need very much of it. Don't let the shocked water keep running though, replace it after an hour with fresh water, the shocking is just to clean out the pipes. Then your fountain will be fresh.

First, to get chlorine all nice and neutralized - other than just flushing it out with the hose - use sodium thiosulfate.

But the real question is how to change the wife's behavior. Easy. Instead of tossing in chlorine, have her toss in an Anti-Algae Block for Fountains. They are made by Tetra, cat # 16737, and are cheap and harmless (unless you are an algae) and are available from places like Coastalpond.com - 888-pondh2o

TA DAAAAAAAA!!

Welcome aboard LRICKER! Your post had two paragraphs. The first, about TSP makes perfect sense if compatible with the local the water supply and "out of the tap" pH.

My question at this point becomes: "how to change the wife's behavior. Easy." is a statement not found to be congruent in any of the 48 contiguous states and/or the 2 additional remote ones; how good sir or maam does one accomplish this singularly SPECTACULAR feat of communication?

respectfully submitted,

GLB

I'm quite sorry that I made perfect sense. I know that could get me kicked out of any engineers' forum. My apologies.

You could make the chlorine tablets very hard to get to - such as a container that might break a nail when opening it. You could explain that a jeweler explained how the chlorine tablets can, just by close proximity, eat up good jewelry - rings, damage stones, etc., and that he recommended that you use the easy to open container of the non-harmful-to-jewelry blue blocks (they look like old-fashioned ice cubes made of compressed blueish powder.) And even though they are costly (you have of course removed them from their original container so that they are nameless), you wanted to make sure that her skin and jewelry are protected from the harsh ravages of the harmful chlorine. You know that chlorine attacks skin cells and makes them appear older and more weathered - don't you? They can even make nails more brittle.

By the way, there are not 48 contiguous states. Again, I'm sorry. There are only 44. Remember your history - oh, apparently not - VA, KY, MA, and PA are not states. They are Commonwealths. I believe that you owe me a beer.

:-)

Feeble quantities of Sulphur should be able to counter the residual chlorine & should be an alternate for chorine. But over dosing of sulphur may lead to sulphide formation whic you need to take care.