Previous in Forum: Solar Management Question   Next in Forum: Project
Close
Close
Close
12 comments
Rating: Comments: Nested
Associate

Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 48

Dispersion Motor PWM Operation

05/29/2012 6:28 AM

Hello Everbody.

I have a query about motors installed on fixed speed variable load application. The motors are installed on Dispersion shafts of a MSD unit

To summarize the motors under discussion are directly coupled to dispersion shafts on a MSD unit. At process initiation the motor draws in a reasonable current ( Load factor approx 0.7 - 0.8) however as the process progresses the currents drop drastically. It is to be noted that the process has fixed speed requirements (1500 rpm in this case) also the motors are driven by VFDs. Now my question is if i were to run the motor on a PWM signal ( say motor runs for 50 seconds and stops for the remaining 10 seconds a minute) after the process has progressed reasonably and the loads are low, what would be the effect of this on my motor and the process itself. Would the vortex formed in the fluid sustain for these 10 seconds or not. Secondly would this achieve any savings on energy?. And if there is some potential in this idea how do i go about investigating it?

Register to Reply
Pathfinder Tags: ac motors Dispersion
Interested in this topic? By joining CR4 you can "subscribe" to
this discussion and receive notification when new comments are added.

Good Answers:

These comments received enough positive votes to make them "good answers".

"Almost" Good Answers:

Check out these comments that don't yet have enough votes to be "official" good answers and, if you agree with them, vote them!
7
Guru
United Kingdom - Member - Indeterminate Engineering Fields - Control Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: In the bothy, 7 chains down the line from Dodman's Lane level crossing, in the nation formerly known as Great Britain. Kettle's on.
Posts: 32175
Good Answers: 839
#1

Re: Dispersion Motor PWM Operation

05/29/2012 6:57 AM

The answer to the question on vortices has more to do with the equipment that the motor is connected to rather than the drive system applied to it. If the load is dropping, then it would indicate a dropping of the viscosity and a corresponding increase in the Reynolds Number in the process as the viscosity is in the denominator; whether or not the vortex remains after 10 seconds depends on the size of the equipment, the Reynolds Number achieved, and how well or poorly the flow is baffled, none of which can be seen from here.

The answer to the second question is that the process will take whatever power it needs from the supply given that the motors are programmed to run at constant speed. Any attempt to save energy may well be met by the product going out of specification due to the process changes inherent in running the motors at a lower speed. The equipment is there to produce in-spec product, though, so savings in energy are trivial in comparison with the loss of sales income, and the cost of disposal or re-work of off-spec product. As the motors are driven by VFDs, which manage the use of power quite effectively, it is safer to disregard any potential energy savings in this instance until trials have been completed on pilot-scale equipment with process materials that do not form part of the income stream. So, hand the issue over to the Product Development Laboratory, and walk away.

__________________
"Did you get my e-mail?" - "The biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place" - George Bernard Shaw, 1856
Register to Reply Good Answer (Score 7)
5
Guru
United States - Member - New Member Engineering Fields - Power Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: California, USA, where the Godless live next door to God.
Posts: 4665
Good Answers: 804
#3
In reply to #1

Re: Dispersion Motor PWM Operation

05/29/2012 3:07 PM

PWSlack has provided you with the right answer, consistant with the answer in the previous thread. He is pointing out that you are incorrectly ASSuming that just because a motor is slightly over sized that it is therefore wasting energy. It is not, the energy consumed in accomplishing the task is determined by the task, not the size of the tool. Does a large hammer "waste energy" when driving a small nail? Not really, it just depends on whether or not the hammer hits it with only the force that it takes. In an AC motor, that is already inherent in the system, it only consumes what it needs to consume.

The only caveat is waste energy, the enegy it takes to make a motor into a motor instread of an iron boat anchor. There is a SLIGHT amount of added magnetizing energy consumed in making that 45kW motor work compared to a 37kW motor. But the first moment that you over load that 37kW motor, ALL savings achieved by under sizing it may go right out the window. And using a 1.25SF motor? Same thing. The motor may be CAPABLE of 1.25SF, but if you read the fine print, the efficiency values go right out the window at anything above 1.0 SF anyway, so the idea of trying this to save energy is absolutely pointless compared with just using a larger more energy efficient motor.

As to the VFD. I mildly disagree with PWSlack on this issue, only in that if the load REQUIRES a fixed speed, a VFD adds it's own level of inefficiencies and that might be unnecessary. If the process can be accomplished at a speed naturally attained by the motor, then the VFD adds NOTHING to the equation, it only lowers the throughput efficiency by the losses in the VFD itself, usually 3% or so. If however you have to adjust speed with a belt drive or gear box, there are efficiency losses in those as well. So bottom line, you cannot make any universal assumption about a VFD running a FIXED SPEED load more efficiently or not, it all depends. Where PWSlack's statement makes absolute sense if it the process MUST vary the speed, because a VFD is ALWAYS more efficient than any other methood of variance.

Now as to YOUR application of a VFD supposedly providing constant torque. Your question in the other thread; "What is the VFD doing here?" (sic), was actually very valid. A VFD, DTC or not, runs in EITHER velocity mode or torque mode. If you command the VFD to maintain torque, it will on occasion sacrifice velocity to do so. If you command it to maintain a specific speed, it will provide whatever torque possible to do so. The concepts are essentially mutually exclusive. The only advantage you have in using the VFD in DTC or (Sensorless Vector Control if it were anything but an ABB drive), is that the VFD vector algorithm can BOOST torque temporarily in the motor while maintaining speed accurately. But if you need a CONSISTANTLY higher level of torque than the motor is designed for, the VFD will likely protect it from overload by tripping if you continuously attempt to get more from it than it is rated for. So this brings you full circle back to where you started. 45kW or 37kW? I would have stuck with the 45kW.

__________________
** All I every really wanted to be, was... A LUMBERJACK!.**
Register to Reply Good Answer (Score 5)
Power-User

Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 131
Good Answers: 5
#4
In reply to #3

Re: Dispersion Motor PWM Operation

05/30/2012 12:19 AM

VFD is useful in constant speed application if the the motor is coupled to a high inertia equipment. In such application a relatively smaller size motor can be used instead of selecting a large motor to take care of stringent starting requirement. The added advantage is that the motor will draw much less current during starting. However there will be no energy saving as the motor will be used for constant speed application.

Register to Reply Score 1 for Good Answer
Guru
United Kingdom - Member - Indeterminate Engineering Fields - Control Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: In the bothy, 7 chains down the line from Dodman's Lane level crossing, in the nation formerly known as Great Britain. Kettle's on.
Posts: 32175
Good Answers: 839
#7
In reply to #4

Re: Dispersion Motor PWM Operation

05/30/2012 6:58 AM

Correct. GA.

__________________
"Did you get my e-mail?" - "The biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place" - George Bernard Shaw, 1856
Register to Reply
Associate

Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 48
#5
In reply to #3

Re: Dispersion Motor PWM Operation

05/30/2012 12:25 AM

Thank you for your feedback guys. However there is one point that i would like to correct here. Installing an oversized motor will not make the process energy greedy but it will make the motor energy wasteful. At lower load factors the efficiency of a Standard Eff class motor drops drastically. But that however is not the point of the discussion.

What i am trying to ask here is that what effect would my running the motor on a PWM type switching have on the process. Would the process fail or still give the same results.

Register to Reply
Guru
United Kingdom - Member - Indeterminate Engineering Fields - Control Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: In the bothy, 7 chains down the line from Dodman's Lane level crossing, in the nation formerly known as Great Britain. Kettle's on.
Posts: 32175
Good Answers: 839
#6
In reply to #5

Re: Dispersion Motor PWM Operation

05/30/2012 6:57 AM

There is no point in sizing a motor such that it cannot cope with process loads. It is career-limiting behaviour!

PWM switching is only relevant inside the drive, as that is how the drive modulates the speed in response to a set point and varying loads. As a concept, it is transparent and irrelevant outside the drive unit casing.

As to the 50sec/10sec feature, that is a process condition and has no relevance to PWM, apart from being a signal with a frequency below 0.1Hz; anything that happens in less than a second in a process isn't real.

Neither is this thread in many respects.

<unsubscribes>

__________________
"Did you get my e-mail?" - "The biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place" - George Bernard Shaw, 1856
Register to Reply
Associate

Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 48
#8
In reply to #1

Re: Dispersion Motor PWM Operation

05/30/2012 7:07 AM

In regard to the second para of your reply. I agree the process will take whatever power it requires. However in this case a lower rpm will not mean a lesser power delivered to the process. Also please remember that it is not known how much power the process requires. And as i pointed out earlier this thread is not about how much power the process consumes or about saving energy. I am trying to investigate the effect of switching off the motor 10sec every minute. As to how the dispersion is effected and the effects of the same on the vortices.

I would appreciate if discussion is not digressed from topic

Register to Reply
Guru
United Kingdom - Member - Indeterminate Engineering Fields - Control Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: In the bothy, 7 chains down the line from Dodman's Lane level crossing, in the nation formerly known as Great Britain. Kettle's on.
Posts: 32175
Good Answers: 839
#9
In reply to #8

Re: Dispersion Motor PWM Operation

05/30/2012 7:25 AM

Shaft power is shaft torque multiplied by shaft speed.

<...appreciate if discussion is not digressed from topic...>

A net balance of GAs indicate #1↑ is far from being a digression.

__________________
"Did you get my e-mail?" - "The biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place" - George Bernard Shaw, 1856
Register to Reply
Guru
United States - Member - New Member Engineering Fields - Power Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: California, USA, where the Godless live next door to God.
Posts: 4665
Good Answers: 804
#10
In reply to #8

Re: Dispersion Motor PWM Operation

05/30/2012 8:15 PM

Quote from above: "And as i pointed out earlier this thread is not about how much power the process consumes or about saving energy. "

Quote: from you original post: "Secondly would this achieve any savings on energy?. "

You are contradicting yourself a bit here. You seem bent on getting an answer to your "PWM" style operation, which is not really PWM, hence the confusion it is drawing. What you are describing, i.e. 50 sec. on, 10 sec. off, 50-on, 10-off, etc. is a "variable time base duty cycle" operation, more akin to what is used in resistive heating conrollers. In general this would not be a good idea for an AC motor because of starting current causing thermal stress, but with a VFD that theoretically is mitigated. However, a VFD can only mitigate starting CURRENT by virtue of extending starting TIME. The amount of ENERGY it takes is still a fixed amount. A 50-10 duty cycle is likely not realistic without a relatively high torque acceleration, in which case you will still be stressing the motor thermally. Maybe not as much as if it were done DOL, but it would still be a concern.

Can it be done? Sure, but still, this comes down to WHY? If you are considering it to save energy, THAT is what we were trying to tell you. Not worth it. You already have the VFD, it is already optimizing your situation as much as possible.

__________________
** All I every really wanted to be, was... A LUMBERJACK!.**
Register to Reply
Associate

Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 48
#11
In reply to #10

Re: Dispersion Motor PWM Operation

05/31/2012 1:02 AM

Thanks JRaef

I think you guys are right about the ineffectiveness of this scheme i am proposing.

Thanks everybody for your feedback

Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Power-User

Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 131
Good Answers: 5
#12
In reply to #10

Re: Dispersion Motor PWM Operation

06/01/2012 1:25 AM

Yes, absolutely correct.

Register to Reply
Guru
United Kingdom - Member - Indeterminate Engineering Fields - Control Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: In the bothy, 7 chains down the line from Dodman's Lane level crossing, in the nation formerly known as Great Britain. Kettle's on.
Posts: 32175
Good Answers: 839
#2

Re: Dispersion Motor PWM Operation

05/29/2012 11:49 AM

This thread seems to be an echo of parts of an earlier one.

__________________
"Did you get my e-mail?" - "The biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place" - George Bernard Shaw, 1856
Register to Reply
Register to Reply 12 comments

Good Answers:

These comments received enough positive votes to make them "good answers".

"Almost" Good Answers:

Check out these comments that don't yet have enough votes to be "official" good answers and, if you agree with them, vote them!
Copy to Clipboard

Users who posted comments:

debata07 (2); JRaef (2); nightshade (3); PWSlack (5)

Previous in Forum: Solar Management Question   Next in Forum: Project

Advertisement