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How Led Me Amis Definition To Unvent The Wheel

10/24/2012 3:29 AM

How led me a misdefinition to "invent the wheel"

Few months ago I came up with a new idea: Is it necessary to generate steam for a steam turbine , in a boiler that consist of a tubing surrounded by flames?

Why not to inject water droplets direct into the fire?!

Then I realized that the flame must be supported by high pressured air flow, exactly the same like in a gas turbine.

Direct water injection would generate very hot steam, much hotter than by utilising a boiler with tubing, this would improve the thermal efficiency of the turbine very much!

This idea seemed me to be too much simple, so there appeared to be 2 possibilities:

1] Yes, this idea is good, and therefore there are steam turbines that work this way!

1]This idea has some flaws, and therefore it can't work!

But- I couldn't believe that this idea wasn't considered.

So I googled for steam turbine+direct water injection, and nothing!

I tried to get some information about it, I asked engineers, but I was told that here in Israel no one is today studying steam, they prefer to concentrate on nano technology, computing, robotic, but no steam!

So I hoped that I'll be the person who brings the fire to the human kind [you know -like Prometeus!]

But then I came up with the simple idea: Probably I have to search not for "direct water injection" but to "Hybrid turbine"- because there are elements of steam and gas turbine together, and bingo! There it was!

Since 1987 were several patents written for such an idea.

But it is very strange that the process is described as steam injection, it seems to me that it is a false description, since no steam is injected, water is injected and is converted to be steam inside !

But I assumed that the invention will include a solution how to treat the problem of the co2 emission!

In a normal steam power plant, there are extra high chimneys, that enable the co2, Nox and other pollutants to be emitted as high as possible, but this requires thermal energy to heat the gases.

But in the hybrid steam gas turbine, the exhausted gases will comprise water vapors, this must be condensed for recycling,

This means that they will be cooled, and therefore won't be able to rise up the chimney!

All the Co2 and NOx will stay with us down!

As I tried to get more information about this topic, I googled for the inventor's publications, and I found that Patton- one of the inventors patented a system for utilise CO2 as a means to extract oil from "empty" wells.

I guess that it is linked to CO2 that will be emitted from the hybrid turbine.

But how much CO2 will be needed for those oil well?!

Enriching green houses atmosphere with high CO2 levels will be another route.

And- what else?

This challenge must and can be solved, but maybe that for this reason, this whole innovative technology isn't applied.

Does any one of you - respected gurus and readers know about this technology, if it is applied somewhere?

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Guru

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#1

Re: how led me amis deifinion to unvent the wheel

10/24/2012 3:40 AM

So far, so good. Your logic stands on good ground. Let us see . . . .

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#2

Re: how led me amis deifinion to unvent the wheel

10/24/2012 3:54 AM

The problems that need to be overcome are:

  • Combustion usually takes place at or slightly above atmospheric pressure. Steam is an energy transfer medium and, for it to be economically successful, it needs to be created at pressures somewhat higher than this. A study of thermodynamic cycles will reveal why.
  • Steam created in this way needs to be rid of the non-condensibles such as carbon dioxide, sulphur dioxide, nitrogen oxides and nitrogen that ordinarily are discharged in the exhaust flue. Current thinking is to not mix them in the first place, and then there is no need to separate them.
  • Water is an impure substance, containing trace minerals in varying amounts dependent on the quality and quantity of the water treatment unit operations upstream of the boiler. Having these minerals melt and fuse to the inside of the firebox and steam delivery piping would place currently-unforeseen issues regarding their materials-of-construction into highlight.
  • Combustion at pressure poses special constraints in the types and thicknesses of the materials, the sizing of pressure vessels and the nature of relief systems to contain the combustion reaction. In a conventional boiler, the metals of the firebox are kept cool relative to the flame by the presence of liquid water the other side of the heat exchange surface. If the water were not there, the metal tends to heat up, reducing its strength. That is why boilers are fitted with fusible plugs, which fail first: the outcome of a "dropped plug" is spectacular and potentially hazardous to anyone nearby, though not quite as spectacular and hazardous as the outcome of the softened firebox crown sheet parting from the crown stays.
  • Condensate containing dissolved gases as above will be rather acidic, and special arrangements would be needed in the boiler, piping systems, heat exchange surfaces and condensate return systems to withstand their corrosive nature.

So until there are economic solutions to the above, current thinking may well prevail.

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#3

Re: how led me amis deifinion to unvent the wheel

10/24/2012 5:45 AM

I wrote that I realized that the airflow must be supported by a high pressure airflow excatly like a in gas turbine.

If you relate to this phrase, that your answer [I guess will be different.

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#4

Re: how led me amis deifinion to unvent the wheel

10/24/2012 7:48 AM

Unless I misunderstand your post, no this is not a good idea. Reasons:

  1. This is not a steam turbine anymore- it is now a derivative of a gas turbine. This means that your airflow must be pressurized similar to a gas turbine. You have mentioned this, but it does require a huge amount of power. It also has to handle the air flow levels of a gas turbine.
  2. It does create very hot steam. And in doing so, reduces the overall temperatures of the gases from the combustion process significantly. While this is not necessarily a bad thing, you have now tied up latent energy in the water to steam transition that can only be extracted by condensation. Your turbine now has to deal with the bad sides of both steam & gas systems (blade erosion from both impingement & the corrosive nature of combustion products, accelerated by the increased acidity of condensate). There is the possible advantage of lower internal temperatures.
  3. You lose the benefit of counter-current heat exchange- you've created a pinch point.
  4. There is a huge quantity of non condensible gases that must dealt with as part of this process; these gases will contain most of the CO2 etc.

So ultimately you will have to decide if potential benefits are worth engineering a completely new set of operating parameters- definitely reinventing the wheel!

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#5

Re: how led me amis deifinion to unvent the wheel

10/24/2012 8:01 AM

The headline promised so much. I'd seen peoples' attempts to re-invent the wheel. So I was hoping to find out, this time, how to unvent the wheel - like maybe the wheel wouldn't exist any more. (Though, maybe it's as simple as covering the vents. It suffocates and dies.)

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#6

Re: How Led Me Amis Definition To Unvent The Wheel

10/24/2012 8:50 AM

If you Google 'gas turbine with steam injection' you will find several articles on this subject related to a form of combined-cycle power generation. As noted in one article, the loss of the required high-purity water is one significant drawback.

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#7

Re: How Led Me Amis Definition To Unvent The Wheel

10/24/2012 11:46 AM

There have been some developments along this route already. An example is the six-stroke engine. However, the combustion gases and the water/steam are not mixed in the combustion chamber; the engine works so as to achieve two power strokes per cycle by separating the fluids.

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#8

Re: How Led Me Amis Definition To Unvent The Wheel

10/24/2012 1:27 PM

CO2 injection for oil recovery has been going on for about thirty years now in West Texas. The plant where I work (steam cycle electric) used to produce ducted stack gas as a source of heat and CO2 for one of the first CO2 plants in the area (the project was doomed since it was a tax write-off for a major airline (not named here), and when it started making a success, the idea was kaboshed.

To really blow your mind (so to speak), there has been a test supercritical CO2 (Brayton cycle).. but in these extreme limits hard to distinguich Rankine and Brayton cycles. The CO2 has such a high density in the lower temperature that the compressor looks more like a pump. The result is that less energy is used in compression, and voila, the cycle is extremely efficient, requires no water, recycles the internal gas without condensing, and can run off practically any suitable high temperature source.

Another cycle you might find of interest is the Maitsoenko cycle gas turbine where the exhaust makes steam that is injected into the compressed air stream right before entering the burner cans, and this can be quite efficient, but requires a great deal of water.

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#9

Re: How Led Me Amis Definition To Unvent The Wheel

10/24/2012 1:49 PM

Also, I forgot about another idea, similar to a rocket engine: Inject liquid hydrogen (being vaporized in preheater) and liquid oxygen (also being vaporized in a separate preheater) directly into a combustion mixer nozzle block (made of God knows what to withstand the temperature, probably titanium with a tungsten cladding, with fuel and oxidant flowing over the outside surfaces in tubes that act as the preheater). Then inject pure water (to be condensed from the combustion products at the exhaust of the steam cycle. This would be the ultimate Rankine cycle for two reasons (1) all of the heat of combustion goes to top off the steam temperature, mass flow, and pressure. The water injection has to be done to attemperate the combustion gases because no standard steam turbine could withstand the initial temperature, and (2) by using an air-cooled (or even sub-cooled by VCC refrigeration) all of the combustion gases are recovered as water with pure water as by-product.

The electricity generated could be used for (1) standard uses, or (2) plasma drive on a large spacecraft, or (3) making a very large ray gun for vaporizing badguys.

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#10

Re: How Led Me Amis Definition To Unvent The Wheel

10/24/2012 11:02 PM

The biggest issue between the two primary turbine designs is simply what fuel sources are they using to produce the heat energy that drives them.

Steam turbines use boilers that burn fuels that are typically solid in nature whereas a combustion type turbine uses fuels that are in gaseous or liquid forms.

Simply put trying to run a combustion type turbine on coal dust would be disastrous simply due to the highly abrasive nature of the solid fuel source itself.

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#17
In reply to #10

Re: How Led Me Amis Definition To Unvent The Wheel

10/26/2012 12:51 PM

Actually, the original "diesel" engine (Otto engine) was designed to run on powdered coal dust. The SCC Brayton cycle is designed to run off any heat source, including coal, diesel, kerosine, JP-5, gasoline, ethanol, methanol, solar, nuclear, or natural gas. The reason is that the burner cans are not burner cans, but basically resemble a boiler in that the SCC (supercritical carbon dioxide) is in tubes under high pressure, and the heat is in a "firebox" for lack of a better word. The burner (if on hydrocarbon or carbon fuel) can be optimized for best compromise between efficiency of combustion, temperature, and air emissions profile.

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#11

Re: How Led Me Amis Definition To Unvent The Wheel

10/25/2012 2:07 AM

My first reaction to your question was, how do you contain the pressure, etc. but looking at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steam_turbine, I thought, (no not you are an idiot) but maybe you are reaching for something else, so at the risk of being defined as 'off topic' I would like to suggest you look at the gasification process, perhaps following, http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org which will lead you to a discussion on more efficient cooking stoves but... an important area of these cooking stoves is the injection of water or steam, - and thereby lies some important info, - but back to gasification, a process of producing gas from wood called, (no!) Wood Gas, which lit Paris and London before coal gas became plentifically (my spell check won't accept that word..) available and cheap, and which (gasification) offers Enormous possibilities, (my emphasis). This gasification process burns (wood, grass, coal, - anything really,) and has a classical origin, - one burns (eg. wood) in a low oxygen environment, then the unburnt gases are directed through a glowing charcoal bed, the which is starving, desperate, for oxygen, so cracks the tars, extracting the oxygen and freeing the hydrogen, also with the aromatic oils, also with the water, (main point) and also turns all the carbon dioxide and carbon into carbon monoxide, so delivering a flammable gas of (per eg) 80% Carbon monoxide and 20% hydrogen, - fully capable (if filtered) of running a conventional internal combustion motor etc. but pertinent to our discussion is the water injection, - as it is entering into a variety of exothermic and endothermic reactions, it would be better the hotter the water is, - better still if steam, (I call on our Chemical engineers to suggest what temperatures) as finally the temperature in the glowing carbon bed is going to determine what is possible. Possibly raising the temperature even higher will result in even more water turning into broken H2O, the oxygen being free to combine with the (hello) carbon, the hydrogen being free, - maybe pushing it all up to an almost plasma level could also be instructive (but I admit to skating on thin ice there), but whatever, hopefully you get my drift that looking more deeply into the injection of H2O into gasifiers may be fruitful, and maybe that is what you were feeling for, - if not, apologies. Cheers, Geoff.

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#12
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Re: How Led Me Amis Definition To Unvent The Wheel

10/25/2012 4:33 AM

Perhaps "plentifully" would do?

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#13

Re: How Led Me Amis Definition To Unvent The Wheel

10/25/2012 9:15 AM

You should look at the STIRLING ENGINE. It takes advantage of combustion in the simplest manner, it can utilyze about any kind of heat source, has little or no carbon foot print... After all, steam infers relatively complex & potentially dangerous mechanisms as well as requiring major sources of raw energy to make it all go. Good luck. Carlos Paraphrasing Hugh Walpole 'Life without courage is no life at all.'

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#18
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Re: How Led Me Amis Definition To Unvent The Wheel

10/26/2012 1:01 PM

One of the great misconceptions of Stirling engine technology is the so-called ready ability for scale-up to large-scale engines (with accordingly high power output). This is not true, and never has been.

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#14

Re: How Led Me Amis Definition To Unvent The Wheel

10/26/2012 4:27 AM

Summarize of discussion about "inventing the wheSummarize of discussion about "inventing the wheel"

Dear friends-Thank you all the participants- I learned a lot from your answers and comments.

Now I want to explain once more the background of my idea to inject water into a combustion chamber, and create a hybrid gas steam turbine.

Since I have no formal education, but I was taught informal by some experts- I "knew" that a steam turbine is much more efficient than a gas turbine.

I verified that some of the big steam turbines are fed by mazut, but there are some steam turbine that are fueled by natural gas.

Because I'm aware that the thermal efficiency is dependent on high temperature of the steam, and I know that engineers are seeking ways to increase the steam temperature, therefore I thought about the water injection. B.t.w- few years ago I came up with the idea to inject water into a jet engine for vtol goal, but I was told that this idea is utilised in the pegazus jet!

Now back to the hybrid engine- The exhausted gases will be cooled for the water recovery, therefore I asked what can be done with the huge amount of Co2 and Nox emission?!

Since all the water that will be injected in the combustion chamber will be treated well, thereshould be no corrosion because of the water.

But probably may the super heated water vapor in presence of Co2 and Nox, result any corrosion?

Now let me ask a new question:

Do you think that it will be possible to apply water injection to a coal powder fueled steam turbine?And something off topic-In my original post the title was "How led me a misdefinition to invent the wheel"- but on this forum it appeared as you see.After I saw it, I checked my original post on the "OpenOffice" from where it was copied, but there it was OKAY, without any mistake!Did you experience something like that as well?

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#15
In reply to #14

Re: How Led Me Amis Definition To Unvent The Wheel

10/26/2012 7:43 AM

<...The exhausted gases will be cooled for the water recovery........Co2 and Nox emission?!.............>

Some of it will dissolve in the condensate, as indicated in #1 above, causing the same corrosion prevention issues to solve. The rest of it goes up the stack, just like before. It is most unwise to let the stack exit temperature fall below 135degC for any length of time, as this is the dewpoint of sulphuric acid.

<...Since all the water that will be injected in the combustion chamber will be treated well, thereshould be no corrosion because of the water....>

WALOOB - on becoming condensate with this new arrangement it will have dissolved COx, NOx and SOx in it!

<...But probably may the super heated water vapor in presence of Co2 and Nox, result any corrosion?...>

'Superheated'? It has just been condensed!

<.....possible to apply water injection to a coal powder fueled steam turbine?...>

Particulate erosion - grit - ash? Poor old turbine! Who in their right mind would fly a jet engine through a volcanic eruption? Michael O'Leary?

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#16
In reply to #15

Re: How Led Me Amis Definition To Unvent The Wheel

10/26/2012 8:14 AM

Thank you for your answers that except that you could understand that the water injection should evaporate the water, to very high temperature.

Once again thank you very much!

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#19

Re: How Led Me Amis Definition To Unvent The Wheel

10/31/2012 2:59 PM

Why not advance to hydrogen, and break the hydrogen out of the steam? Starting with a pressurized container, with a relief, use the steam ,in a tube, to run a wheel similar to a bicycle generator lite to produce the power to seperate the H2O molecule. Hydrogen on demand to power the main boiler. No hazard because of being produced on demand. There you go. And, there are numerous fuels for the original container( gas, wood, propane, solar, wind, etc)

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#20
In reply to #19

Re: How Led Me Amis Definition To Unvent The Wheel

10/31/2012 3:21 PM

Well dear fellow- You are now at the place where I've been few years ago,as I had a great idea to use wind energy on the ocean, to produce electricity and seperate sea water to hydrogen.

I didn't realize that this process is very inefficient!

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#21
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Re: How Led Me Amis Definition To Unvent The Wheel

10/31/2012 4:42 PM

Hydrogen as a fuel (I think) would still very expensive as a fuel, hence only used in critical applications, such as large rockets. If you however, have a seawater process that makes hydrogen, and liberates CO2 (such as the US Navy has now) you can use this as feedstock to Fischer-Tropsch synthesis and make transportable hydrocarbon fuel. You might for example, simply store up the fuel and then run your gas turbine (combined cycle with steam being produced on the exhaust heat (in a heat recovery steam generator), etc., etc. The fuel thus produced is (1) very clean with no measurable sulfur content, and (2) low carbon footprint if you consider where the carbon comes from and whence it (eventually) will return. Or if "morally compelled" one could capture the carbon dioxide from the exhaust (since low stack temperatures are not really an issue when there is no measurable sulfur), and re-use this in the cycle. By the way, US Navy would only use the above process when nuclear energy is available to drive the process to make the hydrocarbons.

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