Previous in Forum: How Do I Solve Generator Undervoltage Problem in a Bigger Engine   Next in Forum: Connection for Transformer
Close
Close
Close
17 comments
Power-User

Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: St Maarten, Netherlands Antilles
Posts: 126
Good Answers: 1

PLC Panel Causing Interference

10/29/2012 8:51 AM

Hi Everyone,

I am have a strange issue here, we have recently installed a PLC panel on the roof to drive a LED sign in one of our casinos. When the sign is on, the night club on the 2nd floor (Directly under the panel) has a scratching and clicking sound when they play their music?

All outputs from the PLC are driven through electro-mechanical relays, I know that this has something to do with the clicking sound they have but can't understand why. I have attached a picture of the sign below, they are LED 120VAC lights, they all flash at different times creating a fan effect. All the relays have a diode between the coil terminals for protection.

Please could you shed some light on what this could possibly be, thank you in advance, hope you are all well.

Register to Reply
Interested in this topic? By joining CR4 you can "subscribe" to
this discussion and receive notification when new comments are added.

Comments rated to be Good Answers:

These comments received enough positive ratings to make them "good answers".

Comments rated to be "almost" Good Answers:

Check out these comments that don't yet have enough votes to be "official" good answers and, if you agree with them, rate them!
Guru

Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 42376
Good Answers: 1692
#1

Re: PLC Panel Causing Interference

10/29/2012 9:28 AM

Isolation is the problem. Grounding and shielding are not right.

Hire a competent electrical technician to sort it out.

Register to Reply Score 1 for Good Answer
Power-User

Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: St Maarten, Netherlands Antilles
Posts: 126
Good Answers: 1
#9
In reply to #1

Re: PLC Panel Causing Interference

10/29/2012 2:06 PM

Thanks for the reply Lyn,

All grounding is good, rope lights are a bit difficult to shield though as you won't be able to see the lights if you do.

Register to Reply
4
Guru
United Kingdom - Member - Not a New Member Hobbies - Musician - New Member Hobbies - Fishing - New Member

Join Date: May 2006
Location: Reading, Berkshire, UK. Going under cover.
Posts: 9684
Good Answers: 468
#2

Re: PLC Panel Causing Interference

10/29/2012 9:52 AM

I reckon you need suppression across the relay contacts. The wiring to the LEDs is pretty long, so there'll be a significant amount of inductance there; they'll also be acting as excellent aerials to transmit any noise generated. Try RC suppressors (snubbers).

__________________
"Love justice, you who rule the world" - Dante Alighieri
Register to Reply Good Answer (Score 4)
Power-User

Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: St Maarten, Netherlands Antilles
Posts: 126
Good Answers: 1
#6
In reply to #2

Re: PLC Panel Causing Interference

10/29/2012 2:00 PM

Hi John,

Thank you for taking the time to respond, I will give it a bash and see if it works.

Register to Reply
2
Guru
United Kingdom - Member - Indeterminate Engineering Fields - Control Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: In the bothy, 7 chains down the line from Dodman's Lane level crossing, in the nation formerly known as Great Britain. Kettle's on.
Posts: 32142
Good Answers: 838
#3

Re: PLC Panel Causing Interference

10/29/2012 10:09 AM

Supplement to #1↑: it is going to need one on every output. Sadly, it isn't one of those solutions where one can try something, see if it works, and then roll-out the installation to all the other circuits; one needs to do them all in one hit.

__________________
"Did you get my e-mail?" - "The biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place" - George Bernard Shaw, 1856
Register to Reply Good Answer (Score 2)
Guru
United Kingdom - Member - Not a New Member Hobbies - Musician - New Member Hobbies - Fishing - New Member

Join Date: May 2006
Location: Reading, Berkshire, UK. Going under cover.
Posts: 9684
Good Answers: 468
#4
In reply to #3

Re: PLC Panel Causing Interference

10/29/2012 10:11 AM

True, dat.

If practical, the PLC program could be temporarily modded to drive one circuit only (the longest) - then have a listen to the results downstairs. If it's still noisy (as expected), see if the contact suppression fixes it.

__________________
"Love justice, you who rule the world" - Dante Alighieri
Register to Reply
Power-User

Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: St Maarten, Netherlands Antilles
Posts: 126
Good Answers: 1
#7
In reply to #3

Re: PLC Panel Causing Interference

10/29/2012 2:02 PM

Thanks PWSlack,

You guys have been very helpfull, much appreciated.

Register to Reply
Guru
United Kingdom - Member - Indeterminate Engineering Fields - Control Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: In the bothy, 7 chains down the line from Dodman's Lane level crossing, in the nation formerly known as Great Britain. Kettle's on.
Posts: 32142
Good Answers: 838
#12
In reply to #7

Re: PLC Panel Causing Interference

10/30/2012 7:20 AM

<...guys...>

How abstruse.

__________________
"Did you get my e-mail?" - "The biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place" - George Bernard Shaw, 1856
Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
2
Guru
United States - Member - New Member Engineering Fields - Power Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: California, USA, where the Godless live next door to God.
Posts: 4665
Good Answers: 803
#5

Re: PLC Panel Causing Interference

10/29/2012 12:25 PM

"All the relays have a diode between the coil terminals for protection."

That is just preventing the inductive kickback from causing problems with the PLC outputs, it is not supressing the noise it creates and that noise is getting picked up in the audio system amplifier. You need an RC Snubber on (across) each relay coil.

__________________
** All I every really wanted to be, was... A LUMBERJACK!.**
Register to Reply Good Answer (Score 2)
Power-User

Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: St Maarten, Netherlands Antilles
Posts: 126
Good Answers: 1
#8
In reply to #5

Re: PLC Panel Causing Interference

10/29/2012 2:03 PM

Thanks JRaef for the info,

Much appreciated.

Register to Reply
Guru
Engineering Fields - Electrical Engineering - Been there, done that. Engineering Fields - Control Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Long Island NY
Posts: 15515
Good Answers: 959
#10

Re: PLC Panel Causing Interference

10/29/2012 7:26 PM

I agree with what has already been said but there is also the possibility that the sound system itself may have a hidden problem that this signage has revealed. Try turning ON these panels one at a time without using the PLC system. The sound system may have some floating inputs picking up noise, bad shielding or simply a poor power supply design (susceptible to line fluctuations) that was not noticed earlier.

__________________
"Don't disturb my circles." translation of Archimedes last words
Register to Reply
2
Power-User

Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 476
Good Answers: 32
#11
In reply to #10

Re: PLC Panel Causing Interference

10/29/2012 10:54 PM

In addition to redfred's comments, modern amplifiers have heaps of negative feedback which means that noise that is coupled to the speaker wires can make its way back to the input of the amplifier. They may have been not-as-careful-as-they-should when the sound system was installed making it too sensitive to mains based interference.

I realise that this comment won't help much except to explain one way the PLCs interference may be getting in to the audio system.

I'd go for snubbers across the relay contacts - especially if it's a DC switching system then it will help prolong the relay contact life as well..

__________________
johny451
Register to Reply Good Answer (Score 2)
Power-User

Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 188
Good Answers: 6
#13

Re: PLC Panel Causing Interference

10/30/2012 7:50 AM

I would also ask If I could have the sound system checked as well....

This may prevent future problems from cropping up if they have have poor shielding grounds, el-cheapo amp, etc...

Register to Reply
Commentator

Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 68
#14

Re: PLC Panel Causing Interference

10/30/2012 10:26 AM

The interference in the PLC panel is alow frequency(less than 100Hz) as you said like a fan-effect so it isn't transmitted to a distance like some 10 meters or long .the channel that is more effect and almost makes passing through is the wire of the power electric .so put a filter to less the effect between the source and the PLC power A.C input .to prevent the effect back to the source.

Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Sebastopol, California
Posts: 1145
Good Answers: 50
#15

Re: PLC Panel Causing Interference

10/30/2012 10:40 AM

Also try putting an isolation transformer between the power source and the sound equipment and make sure the sound equipment is grounded well. Separate the sign power from the sound system power. Also, make sure the sound system audio cables have shield ground connected ONLY at the amp end of the cable. This eliminates ground loops in the audio transmission cables.

If any of the audio equipment is powered by a lump or a brick, then loop the low voltage power line from the lump/brick through a ferrite core 2 or 3 turns. This will suppress high-frequency signals in the supply from reaching the equipment.

__________________
Most people are mostly good most of the time.
Register to Reply
Power-User

Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Amsterdam, Netherlands
Posts: 343
Good Answers: 32
#16

Re: PLC Panel Causing Interference

10/30/2012 3:53 PM

Try a AM/FM radio, or a guitar amp. (without any input or control cables attached), etc., powered from the same outlet as the Audio System to hear if the "noise" is coming through the power source. If OK, then power up the music system amp. with all inputs disconnected, turn up the volume a bit, listen. If ok, turn down volume and install one input at a time, repeat process. This may help locate the offending source and expedite the cure.

__________________
Humans are just smart enough to fool themselves.
Register to Reply
Power-User

Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: St Maarten, Netherlands Antilles
Posts: 126
Good Answers: 1
#17

Re: PLC Panel Causing Interference

10/31/2012 12:18 PM

Thanks Guys, your help has been much appreciated here.

Register to Reply
Register to Reply 17 comments
Interested in this topic? By joining CR4 you can "subscribe" to
this discussion and receive notification when new comments are added.

Comments rated to be Good Answers:

These comments received enough positive ratings to make them "good answers".

Comments rated to be "almost" Good Answers:

Check out these comments that don't yet have enough votes to be "official" good answers and, if you agree with them, rate them!
Copy to Clipboard

Users who posted comments:

caeser (1); corbinstein (1); Deefburger (1); JohnDG (2); Johny451 (1); JRaef (1); kendall (1); lyn (1); PWSlack (2); redfred (1); Robotech (5)

Previous in Forum: How Do I Solve Generator Undervoltage Problem in a Bigger Engine   Next in Forum: Connection for Transformer

Advertisement