DC Vs AC

Did someone from UL actually tell you that?
Your EE buddy may not be entirely correct, even if the DC system were completely independent of the AC.

ok Can you tell me more?? in a way two years ago m told me on the phone that i would need ul approval. to hook it up in the home. The EE mentioned that I was wrong in belliving that it had to be dc to put it in a home without UL approveal. eddie

...another piece of "fly shjt" in the pepper is that many home insurance companies will NOT cover non-UL devices and any damages caused by them.

As a practical matter, you will need UL (or other NRTL) listing in order to sell this product.

Are you attempting to get UL approval on a generator for home use?

Are you trying to get UL approval of your rooftop vent generator? Or, whatever you call it.

You should just attach the e-bay seal of approval to it.

yes i am, i just found out that my mistake was taking the dc pma and changing it to ac with an inverter. If i keep it at dc is UL inspection and certification required? and thanks i sure do appreciate your comments. eddie

If you keep it as DC, the house would need to have various separate DC appliances.

if the whole system is DC to the inverter and the inverter changes it to AC and only an extension cord is used to hook up it up I have not been able to find any reference to Ac requirements in an attic, in 3 years I have not been able to find anything in UL listing, and that is probable 300 houres of looking at requlations and ul updates, the biggist thing is the new Q&A sesion for new appliences and if you want to make suggestions on better equiptment and better discriptions. eddie

That method of connection has huge safety issues, which is one place that listing requirements come in.

gee lyn, i just pulled it off of ebay, it is not for sale. but for you as you are in ariz. i am in mesa i would like to show you and maybe you can give me some tech advise.i will even crank it up and you can check everything. ok my phone is

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Nationally Recognised Testing Laboroatoies other than UL may be more reasonable.

Ace

Maybe a little background for you.

New Patent Oct 2012 Home Wind

thanks for remembering, eddie

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How do i find testing labs that are recognised in the us, this is the one and only system of this kind. how do they test???and as i am on ssi i dont have any funds, I just lost my wife and about to throw the whole patent away it has cost me more than anyone caan imagine. thanks Ace i didn't mean to vent sorry. eddie

thank you i will try and locate an office monday and find NRTL never heard of that but will. thanks for all the comments and all i had to go by was the adds that i bought the products from, some wrong but most proved out on my house as good and i live in a no wind area.I just assembled premade items and it worked. again thanks i will let you know if I can do anything with the mrtl eddie

NRTL's seem to be more workplace related than consumer product related.

NRTL Frequently Asked Questions

You'll never get approval with an energised male plug as the power connector.

Eddie,

Please disregard my previous post. To get to your original question... NO, I do not believe than anyone can explain it for you.

I am so very sorry,

Ace

"Life is hard, it's even harder if you're stupid" - John Wayne

UL (Underwriter's Laboratory) is simply a product certification agency. It has no governing power.

UL endorsements simply means the product meets certain standards for operational safety.

A regulatory body, such as state or local may have requirements that a product be certified to meet certain minimum standards. This is where you need to satisfy their requirements, but it is not UL that dictates what you can or can not do.

Incidentally, not all consumer products are UL certified.

But, this type of product does need UL listing. Lame as it is. Been there, done that, with a battery powered active noise cancelling headset like the Bose units.

Not necessarily because UL listing means much, but the lack of UL LISTING, (it's a list not a certification), is recognized by insurance companies and lawyers. Mostly it means that it won't burn your house down. This product can burn the house down, as presently built.

You are right. Many products are not listed by UL, or NRTL.

Depends on many things, most of which have lawyers fingerprints on them.

I mam presently having a system Solar Pvb panel - Charte controller -Battery - 12 volt fan and LED lights.

It works totally on 12 V D.C and hence no shock nor licensing needed.

I am searching for 1 500 watt heater to work on 12 V D.C.e

That's about 42 A; you could light an accidental fire pretty easily with that.

Tell me friends; what is more dangerous, Amperage or voltage ?

Yes, with a 500 watt heater takes about 42 Amps. Does that mean we cannot work a 500 W heater on a battery, for example ? Should we give in to A.C. circuitry only to keep our hearths warm ? How do they do heating say in a submarine ? Do they have A.C.power there also ?

Uninformed people are most dangerous.

I fear you.

Am I shocking you, for you you to fear me ?

After all, before advent of Tesla, it was D.C. power all the way. Even today, off shore wind people are talking of D.C transmission to shore over A.C.

This forum is to give suggestions - not threats.

Shocking me?

Interesting play on words.

Yes, you could run such a heater. It would require about 8-gauge wire, and would run for about 108 minutes on a 75 amp-hour battery.

Most submarines probably have AC power, but heating might be derived from engine cooling water via a heat exchanger.

<...what is more dangerous, Amperage or voltage ?...>

"It's the volts that jolts and the mills that kills." - Anon

I may suggest that J.C. Wheatly Catlog , It seems that they had some modles for farm use a few years ago.

You don't get it.

Your information is misleading and dangerous to the public.

You are misinformed, as was well proven during our last "discussion" on this subject.

A discussion that was hi-jacked by you, just as you are trying to do here.

Please DON'T CONFUSE THE ISSUE!

See. If the solar system is independent of the grid and uses only 12 V D.C. appliances (Of low enough amperage) there is absolutely no danger to life to any one. When an inverter is used to take the voltage upto 110/220 and/or connected to grid, then there will be danger of shock.

That is what I was trying to emphasise- make the circuit independent of grid and use only 12 V D.C. lights and fans.

this a pm alternator, that makes dc power. 5 amps 340 watts 68 volts, there is no lights,fans, or anything it connects dc to the inverter that matching evey thing to the grid, I am changing from extension cord to hard mount connection,

Is this still related to your attic vent generator system?

Ever come up with any real life as tested numbers to back up any of your claims?

I would be very interested in knowing what brand and model of PM alternator you are using that is putting out 5 amps at 68 volts (340 loaded watts) while spinning at 500 - 600 RPM!

The highest output and most honest rated units I have ever been able to find online cant even come close to running at 5 amps and 68 volts for a 340 watt output at 500 - 600 RPM.

http://www.windbluepower.com/Permanent_Magnet_Alternator_Wind_Blue_High_Wind_p/dc-520.htm

After that I would also like to know what brand and model attic turbine vent you are using as well. reason being that for your PM alternator to produce the 340 watts of electrical energy output it would require more than 340 watts of mechanical energy than going into it.

So lets see. At 340 watts mechanical energy at 600 RPM that equates to,

-------------

1 Horse power = 746 watts

Mechanical Horse power = (Feet Pounds x RPM)/5252

-----------

340/746 = .456 HP @ 600 RM

1 HP at 600 RPM = (5252/600) = ~8.753 Ft/Lbs of torque

So .456 x 8.753 = ~4 Ft/Lbs @ 600 RPM.

(4 x 600)/5252 = ~.456 HP.

Now factor all of that at a rather generous 80% working efficiency and the input torque works out to needing to be around 5 feet pounds at 600 RPM which is a pretty impressive number considering the very limited surface area of a typical attic vent turbine!

So you got some Brand and model names and numbers that can come close to matching any of this theoretical applied physics/engineering math I just pulled off the top of my head?

Reason being is that if there is a PM alternator based on a common automotive unit out there that can put out 340 watts at a 600 RPM input I want one for my wind generators!

it has islanding protection from the pps circuits over voltage over temp. will not work if ac cord is disconnected I has more protection than any of the solor panel inverters and not 1 5th the cost. I will not point fingers but. there is an inverter that said it has everything that i wanted in my inverter but wasn't ul listed and now it is ul listed, but the output is non existant. i tried it. eddie

Unfortunately, there is little technical content in that post. Even the terminology isn't very meaningful.

It is the generated voltage that counts as far as safety is concerned. Then, the extreme currents can influence the results. Basically, the voltage is like the pressure. It is what pushes the electrons. The current is the juice that is being pushed. A 100PSI water source is pretty safe even from a 4 feet diameter main supply (other than drowning) but an one mm line at 3000PSI will cut through you like butter!

Basically, anything under 50V DC or AC is usually considered safe enough to avoid special certification. It doesn't mean that it cannot set fire to your house! It simply mean that you are not likely to electrocute yourself while using it.

Of course, if you have a Short Circuit capacity of 100KA, it is another story...

Large battery banks are dangerous at any voltage from the energy they can release instantaneously and the potential of explosions.

Therefore, your 120V inverter and its installation should be certified by a competent authority. It is not because somebody put it together that it is safe to use. Is the manufacturer going to pay for the damages if something goes wrong?

That is why the reputable manufacturers who follow the safety procedures and have a third party recognise it ask for more money for their product. Something can still go wrong but it is much less likely and somebody can answer for it...

A good reply. Thanks.

In any case, as I understand, if the amperage in the circuit is say less than 10, except for the hazard of fire due to sparking, it should be good.

Secondly, instead of trying to connect a number of Solar panels/batteries to produce high current, it is better they are unitised to have smaller amperages to deal with, without any inter connection.

Thirdly, leave the wholesale production of power to the power companies, whether solar photo voltaic, fossil fuelled or nuclear.

THANK YOU VERY MUCH that is what I need to hear. It has pps to match, amps watts volts hertz, every thing to match grid exactly. also it only puts out 5 amps and that is at 500 rpm that is where the turbine wind and speed fold over and hold the rpm at 5-600 rpm fantastic design, made cheap but has life time guarentee check out the turbines. it is a lomanco gt12 thank you so very very much I designed and spent way too much to make a unit that will only LOWER electric bills for everyone and with financilal backing it will be made in china and not available in the states for probably 10-15 years. sorry i pulled them off of ebay, will hold till i get backing eddie

Provided it complies with British Standard 7671 and Part P of the Building Regulations, no problem.

thank you I hope it will be explained to me. I am waiting for an email from info.uk@uk.ul.com saying they got my email asking for standard 7671 and Part P. I will tell what I get. eddie

As BS7671 and Part P are UK-based protocols and UL is USA-based, such standards are not likely to come from there.

The rough equivalent of UL in Europe is the CE-mark.

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