Previous in Forum: Worms! Can you bait a hook?   Next in Forum: Evolving Circuits
Close
Close
Close
92 comments
Power-User
Popular Science - Weaponology - New Member Popular Science - Evolution - New Member United States - Member - New Member

Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 299
Good Answers: 3

Do you understand when I say: Midnight happens at 24:00

05/25/2007 3:26 AM

You have to work until midnight TONIGHT.

Do you understand what I am saying in that sentence? Where I live, the world has 24 hours in it. It does NOT have 23 hours and 59 minutes in it.

Why, in the last few years are there a bunch of people "out there" who think the day ends at 23:59? Where do they get an idea like that? That the new day starts with midnight.

Give them the rest of the day off on a Thursday afternoon. Tell them: Come to work at midnight Friday, try to get here 15 minutes early... and they show up Thursday at 23:45? Hello, anybody home up there?

"They" seem to think the day starts at midnight. It doesn't. The day starts IMMEDIATELY after midnight at 00:001 or 00:00000000000001, however far you want to go, but AFTER midnight.

11:59am then NOON then 12:01pm. There is not a 12am or 12pm since am/pm means before/after. No before/after to noon or midnight, they are just noon and midnight... exactly.

Anyone else notice that?

Register to Reply
Pathfinder Tags: time
Interested in this topic? By joining CR4 you can "subscribe" to
this discussion and receive notification when new comments are added.
Power-User
United Kingdom - Member - Member

Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Blackburn, Lancashire
Posts: 269
Good Answers: 9
#1

Re: Do you understand when I say: Midnight happens at 24:00

05/25/2007 4:01 AM

Each day starts when the date changes i.e. tonight the date will change from 25th to 26th. This occurs at exactly midnight.

Another point to make is that when it is 23:59 the day has entered its 1440th minute of 1440 which means that if you went to 24:00 then the day would enter its 1441st minute and thats too many!

00:00 is midnight!

__________________
If you remain calm while all those around you are losing their heads, then you haven't realised the seriousness of the situation
Register to Reply
Power-User
Popular Science - Weaponology - New Member Popular Science - Evolution - New Member United States - Member - New Member

Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 299
Good Answers: 3
#3
In reply to #1

Re: Do you understand when I say: Midnight happens at 24:00

05/25/2007 4:49 AM

How does that work? On my fingers I count 23 hours x 60 minutes = 1380 minutes. Add 59 minutes to that (23:59) = 1439 minutes. Midnight is when 1440 minutes have passed. It needs to FINISH the 1440th minute or 24 hours hasn't passed. 24x60=1440, NOT 1441... that is 1 minute into the new day, not 1439 that is 1 minute less than 24 hours. At 1439 the "big" hand is on the 1 minute mark BEFORE midnight (the 12 on most clocks), thus, a full minute before midnight. That minute is the 1440th minute and it has to completely pass before the clock will strike midnight.

Just like a dollar is made up of 9 dimes and 10 cents... not 9 dimes and 9 cents.

There is no 00:00, there is 24:00, there has to be for the day to end, and then immediately after that starts the new day. 00:00:01 or 00:00:00:00:000000001, what ever number you want to use, but it has to be after 24:00.

All the 24 hour clocks I have seen, when all 3 hands point at 24 it is midnight. Even the 2 that I have in my house have 24 at the top. I have never seen a 24 hour clock that had 00 at the top. You have? Where?

And do you think midnight Friday has already came and gone?

Regards Bolton Alan

Register to Reply
Power-User
United Kingdom - Member - Member

Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Blackburn, Lancashire
Posts: 269
Good Answers: 9
#6
In reply to #3

Re: Do you understand when I say: Midnight happens at 24:00

05/25/2007 5:34 AM

Its the same phenomena as to why we are now in the 21st century. The first century goes from year 0 to year 99. including year 0 that is one hundred years.

The first minute of each day goes from 00:00:00s to 00:00:59s including the second denoted by 0 there are 60 seconds from 0 - 59 inclusive

__________________
If you remain calm while all those around you are losing their heads, then you haven't realised the seriousness of the situation
Register to Reply
Power-User
Popular Science - Weaponology - New Member Popular Science - Evolution - New Member United States - Member - New Member

Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 299
Good Answers: 3
#12
In reply to #6

Re: Do you understand when I say: Midnight happens at 24:00

05/26/2007 1:00 AM

Hummmm, what numeral do you use for 0 seconds Al?

"...60 seconds from 0 - 59 inclusive..."

Thinking that way 0 - 23 = 24 hours. So why do they have the 12 or 24 on all the clocks?

For me 0 = 0 0 = zero/null/nothing, it is a anchor or starting place. Zero value.

Bulb with a electronic stop watch hooked into the circuit, electricity starts and stops the electronic stop watch. We flip the switch and to much electricity goes into a bulb, POW, it explodes... time noted on electronic stop watch, 1 second.

To me, that means the circuit was active for 1 second.

Are you saying it was active for 2 seconds Al? That you would use an 0 for 1 second? I can't do that, 0 means no circuit completed, null, void, nothing happening.

Interesting, very interesting. How many think like Al or agree with him that if you hold your breath for a minute, using seconds, that you would put down you held it for 59 seconds?

Enjoyable, a fun post. Thanks Al.

Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 4514
Good Answers: 88
#13
In reply to #12

Re: Do you understand when I say: Midnight happens at 24:00

05/26/2007 1:08 AM

0 to 1: 1 second

1 to 2: 2 seconds

2 to 3: 3 seconds

...

58 to 59: 59 seconds

59 to 0: 60 seconds

0 to 1: 1 second

...

Clock time - strict, 24-hour clock time - is based on modulo arithmetic. 12-hour clocks - both analog and digital - do not strictly observe the rules of modulo arithmetic, for historical reasons.

Register to Reply
Power-User
Popular Science - Weaponology - New Member Popular Science - Evolution - New Member United States - Member - New Member

Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 299
Good Answers: 3
#15
In reply to #13

Re: Do you understand when I say: Midnight happens at 24:00

05/26/2007 1:45 AM

Hello europium,

Yes, that is the way all my clocks work too. When the needle hits 1 it means 1 second has passed. If it stays on 0 it means the battery is dead

Interesting thread.

Register to Reply
Anonymous Poster
#64
In reply to #6

Re: Do you understand when I say: Midnight happens at 24:00

05/29/2007 2:54 AM

Well, not really. There is no "year 0" !

We go from year -1 (1 BC) to year 1.

Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Etherville
Posts: 12334
Good Answers: 115
#65
In reply to #64

Re: Do you understand when I say: Midnight happens at 24:00

05/29/2007 3:52 AM

hmm. 2007 . 21st century.

1997. 20th century. hmm.

__________________
For sale - Signature space. Apply on self addressed postcard..
Register to Reply
Guru
Engineering Fields - Manufacturing Engineering - United Kingdom - Member - Get things done!

Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: East Anglia, UK
Posts: 2003
Good Answers: 3
#67
In reply to #65

Re: Do you understand when I say: Midnight happens at 24:00

05/29/2007 8:30 AM

That's SO 17th century!

__________________
'The truth is out there' The lies are in your head.
Register to Reply
Power-User
United Kingdom - Member - Member

Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Blackburn, Lancashire
Posts: 269
Good Answers: 9
#68
In reply to #67

Re: Do you understand when I say: Midnight happens at 24:00

05/29/2007 8:45 AM

1600's yeah?

__________________
If you remain calm while all those around you are losing their heads, then you haven't realised the seriousness of the situation
Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Etherville
Posts: 12334
Good Answers: 115
#70
In reply to #68

Re: Do you understand when I say: Midnight happens at 24:00

05/29/2007 12:34 PM

You're both wrong - look at my dancing carefully. I got stuck in a punk rock gig.

It's taken years of John Martyn even to get me this calm.

__________________
For sale - Signature space. Apply on self addressed postcard..
Register to Reply
Power-User
Popular Science - Weaponology - New Member Popular Science - Evolution - New Member United States - Member - New Member

Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 299
Good Answers: 3
#71
In reply to #64

Re: Do you understand when I say: Midnight happens at 24:00

05/29/2007 12:59 PM

QUOTE:

Well, not really. There is no "year 0" !

We go from year -1 (1 BC) to year 1.

I have to agree with that. We can look at the calendar and tell THAT. In TWO days from now it IS going to be ONE June. It sure is NOT going to be ZERO June. You have the correct answer Guest. The 1st day of whatever you wish, 1st day of the year, 1st day of the month, 1st day of the week, 1st day of the decade, 1st day of the century... NONE of them start with -0-.

Same with time, 1st second of the day, 1st minute of the day, 1st hour of the day.

The 1st hour of my day is hectic usually. I sure don't say the ZERO hour of my day is hectic. There is no zero hour of a day, no more than there is a zero minute of a day or a zero second of a day. Or a zero nanosecond. Zero means you have NOTHING, if you have a day, you have SOMETHING, some time has passed.

Isn't this fun? LOL

What is everyone doing on the 0 of June? (I don't have one, so I don't have to worry about it! Nobody else has one either, no one has a 0 of a day either, oops, maybe there is, maybe those are the people who don't have a life? LOL)

Register to Reply
Guru
Popular Science - Cosmology - New Member United States - Member - New Member

Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: 33.49N, 84.19W
Posts: 1476
Good Answers: 3
#75
In reply to #71

Re: Do you understand when I say: Midnight happens at 24:00

05/29/2007 1:56 PM

, 1st day of the decade, 1st day of the century... NONE of them start with -0-."

01 June, 02 June, 03 June...

Take that!

John

__________________
All worthwhile programmers know that constants always vary.
Register to Reply
Power-User
Popular Science - Weaponology - New Member Popular Science - Evolution - New Member United States - Member - New Member

Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 299
Good Answers: 3
#77
In reply to #75

Re: Do you understand when I say: Midnight happens at 24:00

05/29/2007 2:00 PM

You caught me John! LOL

Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: "Dancing over the abyss."
Posts: 4942
Good Answers: 243
#22
In reply to #3

Re: Do you understand when I say: Midnight happens at 24:00

05/26/2007 10:23 AM

On my so called '10 fingers" I count down to 11=

start with left pinky =10; ring finger 9, middle 8, index 7, thumb= 6;plus five on my right hand = 11.

Moral: Can't use fingers for math.

milo

To paraphrase "mr I feel your pain" "It depends what "happens" means"

__________________
People say between two opposed opinions the truth lies in the middle. Not at all! Between them lies the problem, what is unseeable,eternally active life, contemplated in repose. Goethe
Register to Reply
Power-User

Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 443
Good Answers: 2
#33
In reply to #3

Re: Do you understand when I say: Midnight happens at 24:00

05/26/2007 1:59 PM

It is the same with birthdays, you start at 0 (zero). -- kinda like the birth of a new day -- it starts at 0 (zero)

thus 00:00 is the beginning of the day.

Ya know time is only relative to humans and we had to start it somewhere so 0 (zero) was logical --it seems. Sometimes we tend to over analyze things sort of like pole vaulting over mouse droppings.

Register to Reply
Guru
Engineering Fields - Manufacturing Engineering - United Kingdom - Member - Get things done!

Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: East Anglia, UK
Posts: 2003
Good Answers: 3
#2

Re: Do you understand when I say: Midnight happens at 24:00

05/25/2007 4:03 AM

Yes, well...time is an illusion, lunch time doubly so...

__________________
'The truth is out there' The lies are in your head.
Register to Reply
Power-User
Popular Science - Weaponology - New Member Popular Science - Evolution - New Member United States - Member - New Member

Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 299
Good Answers: 3
#4
In reply to #2

Re: Do you understand when I say: Midnight happens at 24:00

05/25/2007 4:51 AM

Yes, I hate it when lunch only lasts for 3 or 4 hours !

Register to Reply
Guru
Engineering Fields - Manufacturing Engineering - United Kingdom - Member - Get things done!

Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: East Anglia, UK
Posts: 2003
Good Answers: 3
#5
In reply to #4

Re: Do you understand when I say: Midnight happens at 24:00

05/25/2007 4:53 AM

Ahhhhh.......missing presumed fed............

__________________
'The truth is out there' The lies are in your head.
Register to Reply
Guru
Philippines - Member - New Member Engineering Fields - Instrumentation Engineering - New Member Engineering Fields - Control Engineering - Who am I?

Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Philippines
Posts: 2076
Good Answers: 51
#7

Re: Do you understand when I say: Midnight happens at 24:00

05/25/2007 7:14 AM

I've never had problems with the meaning of midnight. It's the middle of the night. However, when you tell someone to report for work at midnight of Friday, that's when the problem starts. To a lot of people, they'll think you mean midnight of Friday-Saturday. A lot of other people will think you mean midnight of Thursday-Friday. This is because no one has taught them the correct meaning.

What to do? Do we launch an educational campaign to make sure that everyone understands? There are millions of people around the world who think this way (okay, I'm estimating, but judging from the people I know, it's a fair estimate).

Doing this will take a long time and you still won't guarantee that you'll reach everyone. You'll still encounter people who don't get it.

There are two ways to go around this. One is to never schedule anything to start at midnight. It eliminates the ambiguity. The other is to mention the two days that the midnight applies to (Thursday-Friday, Friday-Saturday, etc.). This just makes it clear. It's not difficult, it's not time consuming. It may irritate you to have to do it but you're irritated now anyway.

"I've got your wife. Bring the ransom money to the abandoned warehouse at midnight this Friday (click)."

"Wait! Which midnight are you talking about?! Helloooo!"

__________________
Miscommunication: when what people heard you say differs from what you said. Make yourself understood.
Register to Reply
Power-User
United Kingdom - Member - Member

Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Blackburn, Lancashire
Posts: 269
Good Answers: 9
#8
In reply to #7

Re: Do you understand when I say: Midnight happens at 24:00

05/25/2007 7:23 AM

If someone had my wife, they would have to pay me to have her back. The conversation would go more like

"I've got your wife. Bring the ransom money to the abandoned warehouse at midnight this Friday (click)."

"Oh dear!!! I wonder which Friday midnight he meant. Stuff it lets go to the pub!"

On a more serious note I would actually take midnight Friday to be Friday/Saturday

__________________
If you remain calm while all those around you are losing their heads, then you haven't realised the seriousness of the situation
Register to Reply
Guru
Popular Science - Cosmology - New Member United States - Member - New Member

Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: 33.49N, 84.19W
Posts: 1476
Good Answers: 3
#10
In reply to #8

Re: Do you understand when I say: Midnight happens at 24:00

05/26/2007 12:03 AM

Hi Bolton,

After long and studious forethought, I've come to the erudite conclusion that this is simply the old tortoise and hare problem.

We can never get to midnight because we always have 1/2 the time left which has to pass.

The problem is analogized thusly:

1. Sentence 2 is true.

2. Sentence 1 is false.

(Which simply means you'll never get to the pub)

John

__________________
All worthwhile programmers know that constants always vary.
Register to Reply
Power-User
Popular Science - Weaponology - New Member Popular Science - Evolution - New Member United States - Member - New Member

Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 299
Good Answers: 3
#14
In reply to #7

Re: Do you understand when I say: Midnight happens at 24:00

05/26/2007 1:38 AM

How funny. "Those" people can never say: I have to work until Midnight tonight.

They always have to say: I have to work until Midnight tomorrow.

Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 4514
Good Answers: 88
#17
In reply to #14

Re: Do you understand when I say: Midnight happens at 24:00

05/26/2007 2:15 AM

I've always heard such folks say, "I get off at midnight" or "I work until midnight." It's probably just a difference in local cultures. But when people speak of "midnight of such-and-such a day," I'll ask 'em "which one?" That usually garners a few strange looks, but sometimes the smarter ones realize they're embedding an implicit assumption in such a statement, and clarify.

Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Stoke-on-Trent, UK
Posts: 4331
Good Answers: 130
#66
In reply to #17

Re: Do you understand when I say: Midnight happens at 24:00

05/29/2007 3:52 AM

These days I'm usually too tired to get off at midnight...

__________________
Give masochists a fair crack of the whip
Register to Reply
Power-User
Popular Science - Weaponology - New Member Popular Science - Evolution - New Member United States - Member - New Member

Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 299
Good Answers: 3
#72
In reply to #66

Re: Do you understand when I say: Midnight happens at 24:00

05/29/2007 1:02 PM

You need to remember that all work and no play makes for a dull Codemaster!

Register to Reply
Anonymous Poster
#38
In reply to #14

Re: Do you understand when I say: Midnight happens at 24:00

05/26/2007 5:36 PM

Many of the same people would say "I started at midnight", and if you asked them which day, they'd say today. My mathematical training says they are actually being perfectly logical - zero isn't positive or negative unless you define it as the limit of a positive or negative sequence.
OK, there MAY be a convention about the meaning of midnight - there may be more than one convention.
Accept it - you were being ambiguous. Does your 24-hour digital clock exhibit 24:00 - I doubt it.

Register to Reply
Power-User
Popular Science - Weaponology - New Member Popular Science - Evolution - New Member United States - Member - New Member

Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 299
Good Answers: 3
#41
In reply to #38

Re: Do you understand when I say: Midnight happens at 24:00

05/26/2007 6:26 PM

Quote:

"Does your 24-hour digital clock exhibit 24:00 - I doubt it."

Because that would be to hard for the programmers to figure out how to do? Is THAT why all the digital clocks start at 00:00:00? Ah, maybe so.

Since there IS 24 hours in a day, digital clocks should flash 24:00:00 and the next flash should be 00:00:01, 00:00:02 ...00:00:59 00:01:00

if it were to read 00:00:60, then the next flash would be 00:01:01

Logically that would be the way it was if programmers could figure it out.

15:45:59 15:45:60 15:46:01 or have the digital clock run 15 seconds into the next minute: 16:34:74 16:34:75 16:35:16

16:35:16 IS 1 second later than 16:34:75.

Register to Reply
Power-User

Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 443
Good Answers: 2
#51
In reply to #41

Re: Do you understand when I say: Midnight happens at 24:00

05/26/2007 10:20 PM

Yes just like human life starts at 00:00 yr then goes to 1 yr -- same thing!

Register to Reply
Guru
Popular Science - Weaponology - New Member Safety - ESD - New Member Hobbies - Fishing - New Member

Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Near Frankfurt am Main, Germany. 50.390866N, 8.884827E
Posts: 17996
Good Answers: 200
#57
In reply to #41

Re: Do you understand when I say: Midnight happens at 24:00

05/27/2007 5:37 AM

...then the question is "How long should 24:00:00 be displayed and from what other time display would you take this time? Lets say half of the time from 00:00:00, would that make you happy..... Half a second of 24:00:00 and half a second of 00:00:00!! You will have to be watching carefully just to catch a glimpse!!!

You cannot just add the time 24:00:00 as it would add a second to the day, enlarging an inacuracy of the clock even more......it would be even worse if your clock only displays the hours & minutes as in 24:00, you would be adding a minute to the time each day, unless of course you share the time of 00:00 with 24:00....Half a minute each.

But with such fudges, you actually never have the correct time around midnight!!!

I think that you should stick to analogue time pieces, they fit in better with your life style and requirements, without needing major changes just to work!

Sorry to be so unfriendly on such a great day!!

__________________
"What others say about you reveals more about them, than it does you." Anon.
Register to Reply
Power-User
Popular Science - Weaponology - New Member Popular Science - Evolution - New Member United States - Member - New Member

Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 299
Good Answers: 3
#79
In reply to #57

Re: Do you understand when I say: Midnight happens at 24:00

05/29/2007 2:14 PM

Andy,

24:00:00 going to 00:00:01 is no different than 15:00:00 going to 15:00:01. Why do you try to divide it (the 24:00:00) up? You don't divide the 15:00:00 up, do you?

Who is unfriendly? No me hopefully. Not you neither.

24:00:00 needs to (an does) last just as long as 14:00:00 or 01:00:00 or 13:13:13.

All seconds are created equal on my clock. What kind of a clock do you have where they are NOT created equal? That some are longer or shorter than other hours/minutes and/or seconds?

My clock needs them to be all the same length. And that means a day does have 24 hours in it, not 23:59:59. Quit trying to steal a second from my day, because pretty quick you have stolen 365 minutes from me in a year.

Register to Reply
Anonymous Poster
#88
In reply to #14

Re: Do you understand when I say: Midnight happens at 24:00

05/30/2007 10:29 AM

I have to work tonight until midnight

Register to Reply
Guru
Engineering Fields - Manufacturing Engineering - New Member Hobbies - Target Shooting - New Member United States - Member - New Member Hobbies - Hunting - New Member

Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Charlotte, NC USA
Posts: 782
Good Answers: 17
#9

Re: Do you understand when I say: Midnight happens at 24:00

05/25/2007 9:32 AM

The problem is, there are two different times that mean EXACTLY the same thing. When you have that situation, you always get confusion.

MrChevy contents that the new day starts at 00:00:00001 or so on, but in truth, you have to have a start point to start the clock, nothing starts at 1, it starts at 0.

So the problem that causes all the confusion is that 24:00 and 00:00 are EXACTLY the same time. At that EXACT moment, both statements are true.

So, MrChevy, you can take that stand, and 1/2 the time, you would be right.

__________________
Be careful of what you wish for .....
Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 4514
Good Answers: 88
#11

Re: Do you understand when I say: Midnight happens at 24:00

05/26/2007 12:38 AM

Clock time is an example of modulo arithmetic. In this sense, midnight is 00:00:00.0...0. For example, 0 mod 3 = 0, 1 mod 3 = 1, ... , 3 mod 3 = 0. For the same reason, a digital clock never displays minutes and seconds as 60, and never shows the hour as 24, because digital clocks obey the rules of mod 60 arithmetic for minutes and seconds, and mod 24 arithmetic for hours. Analog clocks do not obey the rules of modulo arithmetic; if they did, the hour on an analog clock would be reckoned from 0, not from 12 or 24. The fact that analog clocks do not obey the rules of modulo arithmetic is probably the single greatest source of confusion in these types of discussions - themselves as old as the hills.

Apart from this (we are really discussing two separate problems here), ambiguity arises when "midnight" is mentioned in conjunction with a single day or date because midnight is an instant in time that divides a day in two places: one midnight divides the specified day from the previous day and the second midnight divides the given day from the following day. Midnight + day alone does not provide sufficient information to make a unique determination. The ambiguity is resolved only with the specification of an additional day - either the preceding or following day - that uniquely identifies which midnight is actually intended.

I might mention here that Cinderella was deeply involved in such a discussion just prior to losing her slipper.

Register to Reply
Anonymous Poster
#16

Re: Do you understand when I say: Midnight happens at 24:00

05/26/2007 1:48 AM

The answer is very very simple. If we compare anything with of the same nature, it would be clear. For example, the border of the country or a piece of land plot, which is the border. Width can not be measured. Like this, midnight is a very limited moment of saying Zero hours. For the right answer, this would do, else, .... (If someone say the office is from 10.00 AM, it meanse his presence should be there when the clock shows 10.00 AM, no need of earlier and do not be later.

Register to Reply
Anonymous Poster
#18

Re: Do you understand when I say: Midnight happens at 24:00

05/26/2007 3:13 AM

I think everybody has gone off at a tangent here. If you look at any airline and train timetable, 00.00hrs does not exist on them because when is 00.00hrs? it it in the morning or is it late at night on any particular day? 00.00hrs did exist in the timetables a while ago until people started arriving 24hrs early or late!

Register to Reply
Power-User

Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Aberdeen, Scotland
Posts: 392
Good Answers: 21
#19

Re: Do you understand when I say: Midnight happens at 24:00

05/26/2007 3:47 AM

I was taught that if you have a graph with time on the x axis and say voltage on the y axis then if there is a step response from -5v to +5v at t=0 then scientists can say that t=-0 and t=+0. Since you cannot have -5v and +5v both at t=0.

Why don't we expand on this and make everybody say 23:59 or 00:01.

Also in my experience when someone phones and says I have your wife and you must bring the money at midnight on Friday I wouldn't hire them again. All the good ones demand that you pay up before they take your wife away.

Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Etherville
Posts: 12334
Good Answers: 115
#20

Re: Do you understand when I say: Midnight happens at 24:00

05/26/2007 6:29 AM

Imagine the entire Northern hemisphere was land , and the Southern hemisphere was all water. Would the Earths surface be land with a lake , on an ocean with an island ?

__________________
For sale - Signature space. Apply on self addressed postcard..
Register to Reply
Guru
Popular Science - Weaponology - New Member Safety - ESD - New Member Hobbies - Fishing - New Member

Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Near Frankfurt am Main, Germany. 50.390866N, 8.884827E
Posts: 17996
Good Answers: 200
#21

Re: Do you understand when I say: Midnight happens at 24:00

05/26/2007 9:08 AM

In my time in the Royal Navy and I believe in most armed forces, time runs from 00:00 to 23:59. That is exactly 24 hours. Several people have already explained it very well and several people have not understood....

That way (00:00 to 23:59), it is self evident exactly when is meant - for example Tuesday at 00:00 is Midnight on the night of Monday/Tuesday.

The same for 23:59 Thursday, is one minute before Midnight on Thursday evening.

No missunderstanding or turning up 24 hours too early or too late!!!

If you do not understand it now, either you are simple or you simply do not want to understand it!!! Select your choice!!!

__________________
"What others say about you reveals more about them, than it does you." Anon.
Register to Reply
Power-User
Popular Science - Weaponology - New Member Popular Science - Evolution - New Member United States - Member - New Member

Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 299
Good Answers: 3
#24
In reply to #21

Re: Do you understand when I say: Midnight happens at 24:00

05/26/2007 10:57 AM

Andy Germany,

EXACTLY!!! You said:

"The same for 23:59 Thursday, is one minute before Midnight on Thursday evening."

EXACTLY!!! I agree 100% with you when you say that. And when the 60 seconds in that one minute before Midnight on Thursday evening has passed, (when all 3 hands are pointed straight up on the 12 or 24, whichever number your clock may have, then 24 hours have passed) and then 1 more second, then you are into Friday morning (but the second or whatever time number you wish to use, MUST pass before you are into Friday).

Oh, wait. In the sentence before where you say that, you are 180┬░ opposite. How do you do that? You can NOT have it both ways.

Register to Reply
Power-User

Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Aberdeen, Scotland
Posts: 392
Good Answers: 21
#25
In reply to #24

Re: Do you understand when I say: Midnight happens at 24:00

05/26/2007 11:27 AM

That one second doesn't have to pass before you can say it is Friday. As soon as Thursday ends by definition it has to be Friday. It just depends how far you want to go. What is the smallest unit of time which can exist. This is the only unit of time which would have to pass before Friday can be called Friday.

Register to Reply
Power-User
Popular Science - Weaponology - New Member Popular Science - Evolution - New Member United States - Member - New Member

Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 299
Good Answers: 3
#27
In reply to #25

Re: Do you understand when I say: Midnight happens at 24:00

05/26/2007 11:57 AM

Exactly. Time HAS to pass AFTER Midnight before it is Friday. No matter what unit of time, some has to pass for it to be the new day.

Midnight is a word that separates the 2 days.

Register to Reply
Guru
Popular Science - Weaponology - New Member Safety - ESD - New Member Hobbies - Fishing - New Member

Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Near Frankfurt am Main, Germany. 50.390866N, 8.884827E
Posts: 17996
Good Answers: 200
#26
In reply to #24

Re: Do you understand when I say: Midnight happens at 24:00

05/26/2007 11:30 AM

I believe that you are mixing up midnight with 24:00, a common mistake.....

__________________
"What others say about you reveals more about them, than it does you." Anon.
Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 4514
Good Answers: 88
#37
In reply to #24

Re: Do you understand when I say: Midnight happens at 24:00

05/26/2007 3:16 PM

"I Googled myself. (MrChevy) What if I don't like who Google says I am? What do I do then? Un-Google? :)"

-----

Ever wonder what Google might say of you after someone has stolen your identity?

I wish someone would steal mine. At least I wouldn't have to deal with all these bills...

Register to Reply
Power-User
Popular Science - Weaponology - New Member Popular Science - Evolution - New Member United States - Member - New Member

Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 299
Good Answers: 3
#42
In reply to #37

Re: Do you understand when I say: Midnight happens at 24:00

05/26/2007 6:42 PM

My made up name of Ken Chevy? (The Chevy part comes from being pretty good with Chevy's, wrenching on them over the years and machining on them at my shop)

What would they do with that? There is no such person that I know of. Do you know someone named Ken Chevy? Hummm, where at?

Register to Reply
Guru
Popular Science - Cosmology - New Member United States - Member - New Member

Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: 33.49N, 84.19W
Posts: 1476
Good Answers: 3
#44
In reply to #42

Re: Do you understand when I say: Midnight happens at 24:00

05/26/2007 7:56 PM

Check out the artist's name at the bottom!

http://www.pbase.com/image/47996248

John

__________________
All worthwhile programmers know that constants always vary.
Register to Reply
Power-User
Popular Science - Weaponology - New Member Popular Science - Evolution - New Member United States - Member - New Member

Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 299
Good Answers: 3
#46
In reply to #44

Re: Do you understand when I say: Midnight happens at 24:00

05/26/2007 8:30 PM

Who is that guy John? He takes some pretty good pictures. Has a pretty ex-wife too!

┬ęKen Chevy 2002-2007

Register to Reply
Guru
Popular Science - Cosmology - New Member United States - Member - New Member

Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: 33.49N, 84.19W
Posts: 1476
Good Answers: 3
#47
In reply to #46

Re: Do you understand when I say: Midnight happens at 24:00

05/26/2007 8:49 PM

I thought taking these photos were what you did after 16:34:75!

No? This one sounds more like you:

http://www.mrchevy.de/modules/cjaycontent/index.php?id=2

Sure sounds like you doesn't it? (your German is quite good)

John

__________________
All worthwhile programmers know that constants always vary.
Register to Reply
Power-User
Popular Science - Weaponology - New Member Popular Science - Evolution - New Member United States - Member - New Member

Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 299
Good Answers: 3
#48
In reply to #47

Re: Do you understand when I say: Midnight happens at 24:00

05/26/2007 9:08 PM

Yeah, he wanted to buy my MrChevy.com name. Told him I had had it to many years!

That sunset photo with the moon in it got me an honorable mention at the Oregon State Fair a few years ago. Ani thought she could take a pretty good photo with what I had taught her, so we entered a couple county fairs and the State Fair. Between us we didn't do to bad for 1st time showing I guess. Won a little money, a few ribbons, a bunch of 1st place, Grand Champion, Reserve Grand Champion, Best of Show, Best of Marion County, Peoples Choice, Judges Choice... just ordinary stuff/photos like most anyone takes. Nothing exceptional about them.

Ken

Register to Reply
Guru
Popular Science - Cosmology - New Member United States - Member - New Member

Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: 33.49N, 84.19W
Posts: 1476
Good Answers: 3
#49
In reply to #48

Re: Do you understand when I say: Midnight happens at 24:00

05/26/2007 9:23 PM

Good one Ken (LOL).

Glad you got Best in Show!

__________________
All worthwhile programmers know that constants always vary.
Register to Reply
Anonymous Poster
#23

Re: Do you understand when I say: Midnight happens at 24:00

05/26/2007 10:51 AM

I think you miss-stated your introductory statement, "...midnight tonight," which is clearly understandable as 12:00 o'clock during the night-time hours concluding the present calendar day; better to have proposed (something like), "Take off (from night shift) for your paid vacation, starting at 12:00AM (or 'midnight') next (this coming) Thursday (or be thought the fool by your coworkers, or work unremunerated on a vacation day)." In other words, the exact meaning (in the posited example) is unequivocally implied by the qualifier word, tonight, which restricts the qualified word, midnight, to the present (defined as immediate past and immediate future portions of the current) 24-hour period; whereas, confusion as to any pre-ordering of a future event (including non- or not-yet-event), either prior to or subsequently after the "hour" of midnight (or 12:00AM, if you prefer), requires that the purview encompass time (minimally days, or hours more than 24) not within the 24-hour present period....except, as readers will soon see, when the prearranging of events attempting to be communicated happens during virtual time. Understood in this way, my response to the question becomes...

Do tell!! But I would not too quickly ascribe such, as a bunch of people "out there" (from this is surmised locations, possibly, also in cyberspace?), without soon also realizing my own position in "out there"; and remembering that the paramount "organ" of speech is the ear, whereas (and I grant you this, that) the mouth, in its subordinate communication role, might be viewed (but don't tell your boss this) as the principal organ of miss-speech! Now, do I mean by this that IP's dilemma more aptly goes to the question of social interaction and the skills entailed therein, and not of geophysical definitions...of seconds before or seconds after...? I would say that it's inescapable that this must be so; that one asks about those others, "out there," as an exercise in futility--futility not only concerning the others, but also concerning one's self.

Consider the question, for example: "Why, in the last few years (?!), are there a bunch of people 'out there' who think the day ends at 23:59? Where do they(?) get an idea like that?" One must ask who it is, actually, who got such an idea. Notwithstanding, I see it as highly unlikely that they, out there, got any idea to begin with--leave alone ideations so precise as described. And, it is equally likely (this writer can attest) that any one of those out there, as they are given to think on the matter, would likely respond, "A second before, a second after, what does it matter? You (the hearer) need only to ask, and I'll say." And who could say that they were not reasonably correct? (Thus, dear MrChevy, you risk being hoisted on your own petard!)

This is not to say the question, in a general sense, is not with good merit. For instance, could it not be asked, in the broader (perhaps more pertinent), sociological sense, how it is that amongst primary-school-aged children--including those fated to become the "bunch of people out there"--such misunderstandings almost never arise? Is it education, and, the more so, advanced education, that leads to confusion....? Or (since since allusion to the workplace was made), could it be that the confusion arises as a consequence of the stultifying atmosphere inherent in the workplace? Most especially, a technically-oriented workplace? The kind of workplace increasingly ubiquitous in the "last few years"? Where, for fear of asking ("when exactly" and "when not") the hearer is (self) misled; and the "out there" speaker who thinks the day ends before it ends, for lack of being asked, has no reason to think that it doesn't, nor see a need for a better way to communicate intended scheduling more precisely.

And then there's cyberspace, that universe of monologue and self-dialog, where it really, really doesn't matter...until you find yourself relieved (or unable to be relieved) of money because no one was there to ask (or is it, answer?): "Is that 12:00AM on Thursday night, or midnight on Friday morning. Which leads to a follow-on question:

Has anyone else decided not to make an online purchase because you thought the "24-hours-only," or the "ends-at-12:00AM-Sunday," discount offer had already expired? this without having considered when, respectively, the 24 hours was intended (assuming capacity for intent) to begin, or whether the offer was intended to end on Saturday night or Monday morning. Could it be that seeming to be rightly misinformed (out there) about when midnight occurs, is a market-tested-and-proven way of rushing others (also out there) into sending money before opportunity (for thought) has passed? Or begun?

I am equally mystified?

Register to Reply
Power-User
Popular Science - Weaponology - New Member Popular Science - Evolution - New Member United States - Member - New Member

Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 299
Good Answers: 3
#28
In reply to #23

Re: Do you understand when I say: Midnight happens at 24:00

05/26/2007 12:10 PM

How funny. Look up the meaning of AM & PM. There can be no AM or PM at Noon or Midnight can there? Noon after Noon just doesn't work, neither does Midnight before Midnight. They are just Noon & Midnight.

A day does not start until immediately AFTER Midnight.

It does NOT matter when or where in the world I am when I say Friday Midnight. If I say I will see you Midnight Friday at YOUR place, then, no matter where you are in the world, I will see you at YOUR Midnight Friday. If I a few minutes late, then I will see you YOUR Saturday morning.

If I say I will see you HERE at Midnight Friday, then I will expect you to look at a world clock and see what travel arrangements you have to make to be here. My Friday/Saturday time.

Look at the USA eBay. ALL auctions on the USA eBay that I know of are based on Pacific Time... it does NOT matter where you are in the world or what time of day it is where you are... it IS Pacific Time that the auctions are geared to. Whine all you want about ...24hrs (or whatever number of hours) isn't up yet where I am... the auction does NOT care. It ends at the EXACT time it says it will...Pacific Time, no matter what side of the Date Line you are one or what day/time it is where you are at.

You said:

"..."...midnight tonight," which is clearly understandable as 12:00 o'clock during the night-time hours concluding the present calendar day;..."

Exactly!!! Glad you could understand (clearly understandable... as... ENDING the PRESENT calendar day.)

Not the beginning of the NEXT calendar day. OOOOoooops, in the same paragraph it appears you DO say Midnight is the beginning of the NEXT calendar day.

You can't make up your mind or did I misread what you said?

Since I am the Boss/owner, my employees KNOW what I mean when I say they can go on vacation at Midnight Thursday, no matter what Thursday it is. And they KNOW they will have to work their regular swing shift Thursday afternoon/evening of THAT Thursday before their vacation starts.

IF I say to anyone (here locally around me/my area in Salem, Oregon, USA) during the current day(for example; in the afternoon): I will meet you at the shop at Midnight TOMORROW.

No one shows up in a few hours at the current days Midnight, they DID hear me say tomorrow. They know Midnight concludes/ends the current day.

And only in dealing with people on the Internet have I had this problem. With "those" people.

Talking to one of "those people" at 23:55 (11:55PM), how do you ask them what they are going to be doing around Midnight tomorrow?

How do you tell "them", when talking to "them" at 23:55 (11:55PM) to plan on leaving at about Midnight TOMORROW.

What do they do, look at you and say: We are leaving in 5 minutes?

So fun, or funny... and enjoyable thread!

Register to Reply
Guru
Popular Science - Cosmology - New Member United States - Member - New Member

Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: 33.49N, 84.19W
Posts: 1476
Good Answers: 3
#30
In reply to #28

Re: Do you understand when I say: Midnight happens at 24:00

05/26/2007 1:28 PM

MrChevy,

Just FYI:

"Midnight marks both the start and the end of each day in civil time throughout the world. Since, therefore, two midnights are associated with each day, conventions are needed to distinguish between them.

In the 24-hour time notation, the solution is very simple: "00:00" refers to the start and "24:00" to the end of a given date. In other words, "today at 24:00" is the same point in time as "tomorrow at 00:00"." (Wiki)

MACA said in post #19:

"there is a step response from -5v to +5v at t=0 then scientists can say that t=-0 and t=+0. Since you cannot have -5v and +5v both at t=0."

When we approach the end of a day and, conversely, the beginning of the next, at some point (depending on how many decimal places you want to carry it) we have to have a step response in order to get from one to the other.

Anyway, Andy (post # 21) explained it perfectly in terms of properly communicating with others.

John

__________________
All worthwhile programmers know that constants always vary.
Register to Reply
Guru
Popular Science - Weaponology - New Member Safety - ESD - New Member Hobbies - Fishing - New Member

Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Near Frankfurt am Main, Germany. 50.390866N, 8.884827E
Posts: 17996
Good Answers: 200
#29

Re: Do you understand when I say: Midnight happens at 24:00

05/26/2007 1:18 PM

I believe what the confusion is in people trying to assign 24:00 to midnight. Its mathematically incorrect, though many do it.

At the tiny point in time where some people assign 24:00, it is really the next day and you need to start from time 0 again......there is no room for 24:00!

Midnight is between 23:59:59.999999999 (etc as long as you wish....) and 00:00......it is not 24:00! It is therefore nearer to 00:00 than 23:59:59 !

People who have worked in programming or looking after computer hardware get used to this as we always count from 0 and not from 1.......

......that should put the cat among the pigeons for the computer illiterate!!!

As someone mentioned earlier, we are in the 21st century BUT we are counting starting with 20 (for 2007 for example!), but when the number goes to 21, we are in the 22 nd Century.....You cannot be in the 21st Century and start the years number with 21....

Its a concept that many, many people fail to understand......don't worry, you are not alone!

__________________
"What others say about you reveals more about them, than it does you." Anon.
Register to Reply
Guru
Popular Science - Weaponology - New Member United Kingdom - Member - New Member

Join Date: May 2007
Location: Harlow England
Posts: 16499
Good Answers: 662
#36
In reply to #29

Re: Do you understand when I say: Midnight happens at 24:00

05/26/2007 3:15 PM

Meowww

I want my share of the pigeons!

Ask a software writer to count to ten...

' 0...1...2..3...4...5....6...7....8....9'

ask anyone else

'1...2...3...4...5...6...7...8...9...10'

__________________
health warning: These posts may contain traces of nut.
Register to Reply
Guru
Popular Science - Cosmology - New Member United States - Member - New Member

Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: 33.49N, 84.19W
Posts: 1476
Good Answers: 3
#39
In reply to #36

Re: Do you understand when I say: Midnight happens at 24:00

05/26/2007 5:48 PM

Was that writer, perchance, acquainted with Kernighan & Ritchie?

__________________
All worthwhile programmers know that constants always vary.
Register to Reply
Anonymous Poster
#53
In reply to #36

Re: Do you understand when I say: Midnight happens at 24:00

05/27/2007 3:17 AM

1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11

Mr Big. (I'm far too modest to say my real name)

Register to Reply
Guru
Popular Science - Weaponology - New Member Safety - ESD - New Member Hobbies - Fishing - New Member

Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Near Frankfurt am Main, Germany. 50.390866N, 8.884827E
Posts: 17996
Good Answers: 200
#56
In reply to #36

Re: Do you understand when I say: Midnight happens at 24:00

05/27/2007 5:27 AM

.......that is simply because programmers MUST be 100% accurate, the rest of the world has little interest....unless their paypacket is missing money because the Programmer got his 0 and 1 mixed up......then there is hell to pay!!!!!

Suddenly, the average Joe is interested in accuracy!!!!!

With time, we can each do our own thing abnd of course accept the results if something does not go quite as planned! Like missing a date with a great Dame by 24 hours!!!!!!

__________________
"What others say about you reveals more about them, than it does you." Anon.
Register to Reply
Anonymous Poster
#90
In reply to #29

Re: Do you understand when I say: Midnight happens at 24:00

05/30/2007 11:51 AM

00:00:00 and 24:00:00 are two different names for the same instant in time.

Register to Reply
Power-User
United Kingdom - Member - Member

Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Blackburn, Lancashire
Posts: 269
Good Answers: 9
#91
In reply to #90

Re: Do you understand when I say: Midnight happens at 24:00

05/30/2007 11:58 AM

No they aren't. If you put the name of the day in front of them they are 24 hrs and an instant apart i.e Wed 00:00:00 and Wed 24:00:00. I say an instant apart because if a clock was to show 24:00:00 it would be the start of the 1441st minute since it started its count at 00:00:00

__________________
If you remain calm while all those around you are losing their heads, then you haven't realised the seriousness of the situation
Register to Reply
Guru
Popular Science - Weaponology - New Member Safety - ESD - New Member Hobbies - Fishing - New Member

Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Near Frankfurt am Main, Germany. 50.390866N, 8.884827E
Posts: 17996
Good Answers: 200
#31

Re: Do you understand when I say: Midnight happens at 24:00

05/26/2007 1:32 PM

Anyone who does not believe me that 24:00 does not in fact exist should look at a digital clock, it will NEVER show 24:00 as there is no "time" to do it, it goes directly from 23:59:59(9999999999999999999999999999999) to 00:00.....

If you don't like that, you should not buy anything other than analogue clocks for your house, oven, car, programmer etc etc !!!

....and do not forget that all normal analogue clocks only go up to 12, not 24 !!!

__________________
"What others say about you reveals more about them, than it does you." Anon.
Register to Reply
Guru
Popular Science - Cosmology - New Member United States - Member - New Member

Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: 33.49N, 84.19W
Posts: 1476
Good Answers: 3
#34
In reply to #31

Re: Do you understand when I say: Midnight happens at 24:00

05/26/2007 2:01 PM

Let's invent a digital clock that show's 24:00. Maybe it could start a countdown from 23:59:00, 23:59:59, ... 23:59:59:59:59:59:.......

John

__________________
All worthwhile programmers know that constants always vary.
Register to Reply
Guru
Popular Science - Cosmology - New Member United States - Member - New Member

Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: 33.49N, 84.19W
Posts: 1476
Good Answers: 3
#35
In reply to #34

Re: Do you understand when I say: Midnight happens at 24:00

05/26/2007 3:14 PM

Andy,

Lets incorporate this technology into the all new "24:00" display clock:

http://hacks.atrus.org/factor_clock/index.html

MrChevy, try telling your employees what time you mean "factorially".

John

__________________
All worthwhile programmers know that constants always vary.
Register to Reply
Power-User
Popular Science - Weaponology - New Member Popular Science - Evolution - New Member United States - Member - New Member

Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 299
Good Answers: 3
#40
In reply to #35

Re: Do you understand when I say: Midnight happens at 24:00

05/26/2007 6:04 PM

Yes! as in 4!

Register to Reply
Guru
Popular Science - Weaponology - New Member Safety - ESD - New Member Hobbies - Fishing - New Member

Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Near Frankfurt am Main, Germany. 50.390866N, 8.884827E
Posts: 17996
Good Answers: 200
#55
In reply to #34

Re: Do you understand when I say: Midnight happens at 24:00

05/27/2007 5:17 AM

...start inventing Johnjohn, let us all know when you get it to work, remember it will need a lot of "fudges", the easiest being to NOT have a time of 00:00:00 of course, start with 00:00:01, then you can manage to display 24:00:00.......

It is not correct of course as there should be a time of 00:00:00 displayed!! But as I said, its a "Fudge" not reality, not mathematically correct either.......but you must live with that, not me!

Have a great day (designing!). Isn't CR4 fun!

__________________
"What others say about you reveals more about them, than it does you." Anon.
Register to Reply
Anonymous Poster
#43
In reply to #31

Re: Do you understand when I say: Midnight happens at 24:00

05/26/2007 6:50 PM

isn't this another way of saying, that only a broken (a stopped) clock gives accurate time--twice a day?

Register to Reply
Power-User
Popular Science - Weaponology - New Member Popular Science - Evolution - New Member United States - Member - New Member

Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 299
Good Answers: 3
#45
In reply to #43

Re: Do you understand when I say: Midnight happens at 24:00

05/26/2007 8:11 PM

Yeah, there you go, twice a day... if we are lucky, right?

Register to Reply
Power-User

Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 443
Good Answers: 2
#50
In reply to #31

Re: Do you understand when I say: Midnight happens at 24:00

05/26/2007 9:59 PM

Some old ones actually do have 24:00 as a separate graduation scale in small nos. just under the 12 hr clock nos.

USAF had them all over the place at all US bases. Worked for the USAF civil service for 29 yrs and always saw them.

Register to Reply
Guru
Popular Science - Weaponology - New Member Safety - ESD - New Member Hobbies - Fishing - New Member

Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Near Frankfurt am Main, Germany. 50.390866N, 8.884827E
Posts: 17996
Good Answers: 200
#58
In reply to #50

Re: Do you understand when I say: Midnight happens at 24:00

05/27/2007 5:39 AM

Analog, not digital though!

__________________
"What others say about you reveals more about them, than it does you." Anon.
Register to Reply
Power-User

Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 443
Good Answers: 2
#52
In reply to #31

Re: Do you understand when I say: Midnight happens at 24:00

05/26/2007 10:47 PM

24 Hour analog clock

Register to Reply
Power-User
Popular Science - Weaponology - New Member Popular Science - Evolution - New Member United States - Member - New Member

Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 299
Good Answers: 3
#54
In reply to #52

Re: Do you understand when I say: Midnight happens at 24:00

05/27/2007 4:52 AM

Ah, you posted a photo of a recent 24 hour clock that was numbered by a programmer. Clocks made 30 years ago have the 24 as the end of the day. I have a couple hanging in my home. My oldest boy just got out of the military recently, stopped by today. I asked him: What time does the day end? His answer: 2400 hours. What comes after Midnight Sunday? His answer: Monday.

Ah, same answers we used back in the 60's when I was in the military.

People seem to have a hard time grasping the fact that Midnight separates one day from the next and that the next day doesn't start until IMMEDIATELY after Midnight. Use however small a number you want, use a nano-second if you want, but time has to pass before you are into the new day.

All days ARE longer than 24 hours... thus we add a WHOLE EXTRA DAY to February next year! If we didn't mess around with leap years all the clocks would have to click to 24:00:59:18 and THEN start the new day. That would be cool!

Register to Reply
Guru
Philippines - Member - New Member Engineering Fields - Instrumentation Engineering - New Member Engineering Fields - Control Engineering - Who am I?

Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Philippines
Posts: 2076
Good Answers: 51
#61
In reply to #54

Re: Do you understand when I say: Midnight happens at 24:00

05/27/2007 10:04 PM

MrChevy, you said,

People seem to have a hard time grasping the fact that Midnight separates one day from the next and that the next day doesn't start until IMMEDIATELY after Midnight.

I don't think so. I believe that most people already know that the new day starts after midnight. What people have problems with is, as you pointed out in your original post, people have a hard time grasping what day does midnight apply to.

Not everyone has served in the military so your source of knowledge is not available to everyone. The fact of the matter is that there are lots of people who don't know. You can choose to let them suffer for their ignorance or you can educate them.

I choose to compensate. Specify the days that the midnight separates and the ambiguity ends. The term "midnight tonight" holds no ambiguity for me since it will be midnight of the coming or present night. Likewise "midnight last night" is just as easy to decipher.

By the way, great pictures. Good job.

__________________
Miscommunication: when what people heard you say differs from what you said. Make yourself understood.
Register to Reply
Power-User
United Kingdom - Member - Member

Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Blackburn, Lancashire
Posts: 269
Good Answers: 9
#62
In reply to #54

Re: Do you understand when I say: Midnight happens at 24:00

05/28/2007 9:45 AM

The change from one day to the next does not take any time. It is instantaneous which is why you can't have a clock showing 24:00:00

__________________
If you remain calm while all those around you are losing their heads, then you haven't realised the seriousness of the situation
Register to Reply
Guru
Popular Science - Cosmology - New Member United States - Member - New Member

Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: 33.49N, 84.19W
Posts: 1476
Good Answers: 3
#63
In reply to #62

Re: Do you understand when I say: Midnight happens at 24:00

05/28/2007 12:56 PM

It's only semantics!

We could, if we so chose, have the day begin at 21:47:21, or any other "time". The thread deals with the ability to communicate a "named" time with others, not whether "some" particular time does, or does not exist.

Seems like the thread has degenerated (I love it) into whether some instant has the ability to exist! The progression of the symbols on a clock face from one state to another is irrelevant, since, in the case of an analog clock, it imposes no particular importance of the hands being in any place over any other. It just moves according to the manufacturers intentions. Same for a digital clock. From 23:59:59 > 00:00:00 > 00:00:01... is no different than going from 17:33:28 > 17:33:29 > 17:33:30...

There's nothing instantaneous however, about it.

Time just keeps marching on. Take a look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronon as Kris suggested in another post.

Cheers,

John

__________________
All worthwhile programmers know that constants always vary.
Register to Reply
Power-User
Popular Science - Weaponology - New Member Popular Science - Evolution - New Member United States - Member - New Member

Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 299
Good Answers: 3
#76
In reply to #62

Re: Do you understand when I say: Midnight happens at 24:00

05/29/2007 1:59 PM

Bolton Alan,

You said:

The change from one day to the next does not take any time. It is instantaneous which is why you can't have a clock showing 24:00:00

Really? You actually believe that? It is NOT any more instantaneous than when it goes from 14:59:59 to 15:00:00 to 15:00:01. All of the seconds, minutes, hours are created equal in our day.

Ooops, maybe your clock goes 14:59:59 00:00:00 15:00:01 ???

There is no time involved in Midnight, yes, that is true. It is just a word that separates two days, but a day has to have 24 hours in it or it is not finished. And a clock needs to read 24:00:00 until it is ready to read 00:00:01, just like it needs to read 15:00:00 (or ANY other hour of the day) until it is ready to read 15:00:01.

Just like our calendars go from the last day of the month to .... the 1st day of the next month... NOT the 0 day of the next month.

How long is the 31st of May going to last? 24:00:00 hours of course, and immediately, instantaneously AFTER Midnight it will start with 01 June. Not with 00 June. Neither does a day start with 00, nor an hour with 00, nor a minute with 00, nor even a second with 00. They all start with the 1st second, minute, hour, day, week, month or year.

Our 1st time walking, our 1st time riding a bike, our 1st time driving, our 1st time kissing a girl, our 1st time anything, anytime. Everything starts with 1 or you haven't started yet.

Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Etherville
Posts: 12334
Good Answers: 115
#32

Re: Do you understand when I say: Midnight happens at 24:00

05/26/2007 1:37 PM

We may be living in a slide show , where the existence of a relative point in time may not exist depending upon the time gap specified from one Chronon to another. If you manage to refer to a point in time between slides (of 1 Chronon duration) then the point does not exist.

chronon,nothing,chronon,nothing,chronon,nothing,chronon,nothing.....

I'm off to check the projector.

__________________
For sale - Signature space. Apply on self addressed postcard..
Register to Reply
Anonymous Poster
#59

Re: Do you understand when I say: Midnight happens at 24:00

05/27/2007 4:28 PM

In the odd world of clocks 24=12=00

Deal with it.

Register to Reply
Power-User

Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 443
Good Answers: 2
#60
In reply to #59

Re: Do you understand when I say: Midnight happens at 24:00

05/27/2007 8:57 PM

AMEN

Register to Reply
Power-User
Popular Science - Weaponology - New Member Popular Science - Evolution - New Member United States - Member - New Member

Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 299
Good Answers: 3
#73
In reply to #59

Re: Do you understand when I say: Midnight happens at 24:00

05/29/2007 1:06 PM

Ah, the way of the world, even if it is not correct, accept it because that is the way it is.

Without looking at a clock, how many hours are there in a day?

Register to Reply
Guru
Engineering Fields - Electrical Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: El Lago, Texas, USA
Posts: 2640
Good Answers: 65
#69

Re: Do you understand when I say: Midnight happens at 24:00

05/29/2007 10:17 AM

I don't know what happens at 24:00, but I'm extremely aware of what happens at 4:20

Register to Reply
Power-User
Popular Science - Weaponology - New Member Popular Science - Evolution - New Member United States - Member - New Member

Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 299
Good Answers: 3
#74
In reply to #69

Re: Do you understand when I say: Midnight happens at 24:00

05/29/2007 1:11 PM

I stayed up late one night and watched. My clock clicked to 24:00 at Midnight, and then 1 click later it was 1 second into the new day. Dumb clock, it doesn't have 0 on it.

Ah, dang, my calendars don't either. How am I supposed to start a month without an 0 day?

0422 probably feels close to your 0420 I would think, that has been when I have made it to bed the last few days.

Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Etherville
Posts: 12334
Good Answers: 115
#78
In reply to #74

Re: Do you understand when I say: Midnight happens at 24:00

05/29/2007 2:06 PM

Oh dear , I just did a quick check !

No countdown seems to end in zero/none/nothing/zilch etc. Might be more descriptive if they did.

Shame pol pot never went to year zero personally. Even more so because his son is around. Off topic and depressing I know, but sometimes I like to name such people.

<deep gloom on>

__________________
For sale - Signature space. Apply on self addressed postcard..
Register to Reply
Power-User
Popular Science - Weaponology - New Member Popular Science - Evolution - New Member United States - Member - New Member

Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 299
Good Answers: 3
#80
In reply to #78

Re: Do you understand when I say: Midnight happens at 24:00

05/29/2007 2:31 PM

Historians don't seem to like 0 either. Hummmm.

pol pot. A sad time for Asia for sure. We have sniper rifles that are accurate to a mile or more. How is it people like pol pot survive so long? Wait, wait, we are getting off the subject of Midnight separating one day from the next.

Register to Reply
Guru
Popular Science - Cosmology - New Member United States - Member - New Member

Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: 33.49N, 84.19W
Posts: 1476
Good Answers: 3
#81
In reply to #74

Re: Do you understand when I say: Midnight happens at 24:00

05/29/2007 2:46 PM

Ken,

"My clock clicked to 24:00 at Midnight, and then 1 click later it was 1 second into the new day"

More than likely this occurred purely as a result of probability.

The Hewitt-Savage zero-one law is a theorem in probability theory, similar to Kolmogorov's zero-one law, that specifies that a certain type of event will either almost surely happen or almost surely not happen. It is sometimes known as the Hewitt-Savage law for symmetric events. It is named after Edwin Hewitt and Leonard Jimmie Savage

In this case the event we're talking about is time 00:00:00. It may, or may not, exist! At the very least we can say, as Hewitt-Savage predicts: it will almost surely happen or almost surely NOT happen.

Then based on the above you can tell your employees that IF midnight occurs, or IF 00:00:00 shows up on the shop's digital clock, you all get an extra days vacation.

John

__________________
All worthwhile programmers know that constants always vary.
Register to Reply
Guru
Popular Science - Weaponology - New Member Safety - ESD - New Member Hobbies - Fishing - New Member

Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Near Frankfurt am Main, Germany. 50.390866N, 8.884827E
Posts: 17996
Good Answers: 200
#82

Re: Do you understand when I say: Midnight happens at 24:00

05/29/2007 7:02 PM

This is a most unusual Blog, there are apparently more people who do not understand why we have no 24:00:00 than who do!!! or should I say that those who do not understand are commenting more!

As in the great scheme of things, it probably does not matter that much whether you do or don't understand it, I will refrain from commenting further, therefore I become another of those who DO understand why, but refrain from making any further suggestions! Sorry!

Please discuss further, but without my input as this Blog just got too boring for me personally.

It reminds me too much of other discussions from history, Flat v. round earth and whether the sun revolves round the earth.....each has his own opinion.......I have mine.....

__________________
"What others say about you reveals more about them, than it does you." Anon.
Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Etherville
Posts: 12334
Good Answers: 115
#83
In reply to #82

Re: Do you understand when I say: Midnight happens at 24:00

05/30/2007 3:20 AM

Aw c'mon Andy ! I injected a bit of semi-serious info with 'chronon' - only johnjohn seems to have bothered looking. Take a peek. A slide-show reality may seem bizarre , but read the thing a little.

__________________
For sale - Signature space. Apply on self addressed postcard..
Register to Reply
Guru
Popular Science - Weaponology - New Member Safety - ESD - New Member Hobbies - Fishing - New Member

Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Near Frankfurt am Main, Germany. 50.390866N, 8.884827E
Posts: 17996
Good Answers: 200
#84
In reply to #83

Re: Do you understand when I say: Midnight happens at 24:00

05/30/2007 3:42 AM

Hi Kris,

your input was good, and I am not upset or anything at you or anybody, but I do feel (hopefully they were all joking!!) that some people really believe that you should see 24:00:00 on a digital clock....... and nothing that you or I or anyone will change their minds! The fact that you don't ever see it, does not seem to bother them!!!

...and I have better blogs to read (read that as better things to do!) than to bother arguing the point with them on CR4......I tried to help and educate, thats enough, more can we not do!!

Stay well and healthy and we will meet in another Blog on another fine day.....

__________________
"What others say about you reveals more about them, than it does you." Anon.
Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Etherville
Posts: 12334
Good Answers: 115
#85
In reply to #84

Re: Do you understand when I say: Midnight happens at 24:00

05/30/2007 3:55 AM

Cheers Andy , Just one last observation . Some threads are designed for trivial/absurd discussion. I kind of like looking because the odd useful bit of fact creeps in now and again . It's a secondary priority to the more 'normal' stuff , but good for a giggle when time allows. Catch you on another thread ! Kris

__________________
For sale - Signature space. Apply on self addressed postcard..
Register to Reply
Guru
Popular Science - Weaponology - New Member Safety - ESD - New Member Hobbies - Fishing - New Member

Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Near Frankfurt am Main, Germany. 50.390866N, 8.884827E
Posts: 17996
Good Answers: 200
#86
In reply to #85

Re: Do you understand when I say: Midnight happens at 24:00

05/30/2007 4:33 AM

I guess I take things too seriously some times......my failure!!!

Have a good one.

__________________
"What others say about you reveals more about them, than it does you." Anon.
Register to Reply
Guru
Popular Science - Cosmology - New Member United States - Member - New Member

Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: 33.49N, 84.19W
Posts: 1476
Good Answers: 3
#87
In reply to #84

Re: Do you understand when I say: Midnight happens at 24:00

05/30/2007 10:15 AM

Hi Andy,

Just want to echo what Kris said.

A little humor posted, and read, here and there helps one to keep a good perspective, and outlook on life in a (usually) hectic world. Laughter helps! (also helps keep blood pressure down to recordable levels).

By the way, which fine day are you talking about; the zeroth day or the first or second or ... ?

Many cheers. Ta Ta. Bottoms up. Have a good one...

John

__________________
All worthwhile programmers know that constants always vary.
Register to Reply
Guru
Popular Science - Weaponology - New Member Safety - ESD - New Member Hobbies - Fishing - New Member

Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Near Frankfurt am Main, Germany. 50.390866N, 8.884827E
Posts: 17996
Good Answers: 200
#89

Re: Do you understand when I say: Midnight happens at 24:00

05/30/2007 11:20 AM

Thanks for the humour Guys, I needed it!

Keep up the good work!

__________________
"What others say about you reveals more about them, than it does you." Anon.
Register to Reply
Power-User
Popular Science - Weaponology - New Member Popular Science - Evolution - New Member United States - Member - New Member

Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 299
Good Answers: 3
#92

Re: Do you understand when I say: Midnight happens at 24:00

05/30/2007 2:09 PM

It has been a fun thread. Have enjoyed playing devils advocate. (I think I even caught a glimpse of smoke coming out of Andy's ears a time or two!! LOL) My night always seems to end at 0300 or 0422 in the wee hours and starts at 0700 or 0800. Not enough sleep, but that is what the body be doing to me lately. I am going to hate it when I get older if it is this bad when I am young.

Have a good one everyone, like I said: I have enjoyed it. See you around the forums.

Ken

Register to Reply
Register to Reply 92 comments
Interested in this topic? By joining CR4 you can "subscribe" to
this discussion and receive notification when new comments are added.
Copy to Clipboard

Users who posted comments:

Andy Germany (12); Anonymous Poster (10); bhankiii (1); Bolton_Alan (6); Codemaster (1); Del the cat (1); Johnjohn (12); Kris (7); Labyguy (1); MACA (2); Milo (1); MrChevy (24); PlbMak (3); user-deleted-13 (4); user-deleted-5 (5); Vulcan (2)

Previous in Forum: Worms! Can you bait a hook?   Next in Forum: Evolving Circuits
You might be interested in: Durometers, Hot Plates

Advertisement