Previous in Forum: Pickling 2 Ton Wire Rod   Next in Forum: Chemical Analysis of Weld Metal
Close
Close
Close
13 comments
Rate Comments: Nested
Member

Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: New York City
Posts: 7
Good Answers: 1

Tool to Measure Impact/Crushing Energy

02/12/2013 6:20 PM

Can anyone provide advice on the type of gauge to use to measure the energy an industrial machine would provide? It could be a "Go"-"No-Go" gauge, with the threshold being whether or not injury would occur. If such a go/no-go gauge is unavailable, I'd be open to a more refined device that provides a range of energies.

Right now, believe it or not, we use hot dog tests to determine if a machine or component will cause injury, but hot dogs (or other frangible substitutes like modeling clay or children's playdoh) are not permitted in clean environments (food; pharmaceutical; silicon wafer mfg; aerospace)

I would be using such a gauge to determine if the energy of a machine component would cause injury if a finger, hand, arm, or other body part were inserted.

Thanks in advance

Register to Reply
Interested in this topic? By joining CR4 you can "subscribe" to
this discussion and receive notification when new comments are added.

Good Answers:

These comments received enough positive votes to make them "good answers".

"Almost" Good Answers:

Check out these comments that don't yet have enough votes to be "official" good answers and, if you agree with them, vote them!
Guru

Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 42355
Good Answers: 1693
#1

Re: Tool to Measure Impact/Crushing Energy

02/12/2013 6:43 PM

Very few here, I believe. Although two or three come to mind.

What you are doing could ultimately end up in a court of law.

Are your hot dogs certified? MIL-SPEC perhaps?

What you want to do is technically feasible, but, very expensive.

Think of some of the things Myth Busters® does with accelerometers and computers and cameras.

Now figure a way to get it all certified by some government agency so it will be admissible evidence in court.

Much more detail, please.

Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 8006
Good Answers: 286
#2

Re: Tool to Measure Impact/Crushing Energy

02/12/2013 8:53 PM

The liability concerns Lyn brought up deserve attention.

With that in mind....

Have you considered procuring pigs feet from the grocery store/butcher and then sealing it in multiple loose fit bags made of a tough, clean room compliant material?

.

Pigs feet are cheap, readily available (in many places), and certainly would give a better indication of injury than a hot dog. If you can find acceptable bags, you will have a much improved model.

__________________
Eternal vigilance is the price of knowledge. - George Santayana
Register to Reply
Member

Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: New York City
Posts: 7
Good Answers: 1
#3
In reply to #2

Re: Tool to Measure Impact/Crushing Energy

02/12/2013 8:56 PM

Great idea! Thanks!

Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Guru

Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 687
Good Answers: 21
#4

Re: Tool to Measure Impact/Crushing Energy

02/12/2013 10:24 PM

My 1st thought when I read this is, we go out of way to keep people out of machinery period. My 2nd thought was the same. I don't care how much damage it can do, I don't want any part of the human person in a machine. Light curtains and other means of safety devices were made for that reason.

Register to Reply
2
Member

Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: New York City
Posts: 7
Good Answers: 1
#5
In reply to #4

Re: Tool to Measure Impact/Crushing Energy

02/12/2013 10:49 PM

So do you propose guarding everything without knowing the energy involved? There are many components that have no harmful energy. Some of this equipment is 50 years old and the only person who can tell the operator that it is harmful is the engineer who oversees it. If you put a light curtain on a component that won't cause injury, you are wasting your money, compromising productivity, and creating a dangerous precedent in safety. If you don't have a suggestion, please don't lecture me about safety

Register to Reply Good Answer (Score 2)
Guru

Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: South of Minot North Dakota
Posts: 8376
Good Answers: 775
#6

Re: Tool to Measure Impact/Crushing Energy

02/12/2013 11:04 PM

A simple DIY crush force testing device is to simply use a rubber tube filled with air or water connected to a pressure gage of the correct range relating to the force involved to cause injury.

If X PSI causes injury anything that creates a pressure over X is obviously a bad place to put your body parts!

Register to Reply Score 1 for Good Answer
Member

Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: New York City
Posts: 7
Good Answers: 1
#7
In reply to #6

Re: Tool to Measure Impact/Crushing Energy

02/12/2013 11:30 PM

Thanks. good idea

Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Guru

Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 8006
Good Answers: 286
#8
In reply to #7

Re: Tool to Measure Impact/Crushing Energy

02/12/2013 11:41 PM

hint: if that's how you feel, you should rate his comment as a 'good answer'.

__________________
Eternal vigilance is the price of knowledge. - George Santayana
Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 4)
Guru
Technical Fields - Technical Writing - New Member Engineering Fields - Piping Design Engineering - New Member

Join Date: May 2009
Location: Richland, WA, USA
Posts: 21017
Good Answers: 795
#9

Re: Tool to Measure Impact/Crushing Energy

02/13/2013 12:22 AM

A load cell might do the trick, if the circuit can successfully sample the peak force. (Or even measure the thickness of some putty beneath it.)

__________________
In vino veritas; in cervisia carmen; in aqua E. coli.
Register to Reply
Guru
Engineering Fields - Mechanical Engineering - New Member Fans of Old Computers - TRS-80 - New Member Popular Science - Weaponology - New Member Safety - Hazmat - New Member Hobbies - Fishing - Fish On! United States - Member - New Member

Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Detroit MI, USA
Posts: 2496
Good Answers: 271
#10

Re: Tool to Measure Impact/Crushing Energy

02/13/2013 6:15 AM

There are some good Ideas above but what you need to do is a Safety Risk Analysis. You, the operator, machine engineer, management, sit down a brainstorm each area of the machine for cause, effect, and probability of accident. You can use one the ideas above to determine severity and then brainstorm to determine what is needed to fix it. When you have more then one set of eyes examining a process you are lessoning the chance of missing something. Once you have all there areas of concern, you collectively rate them and go after the most severe ones first.

We do a risk analysis on every new machine or process we implement. Do a google search on safety risk analysis and you will see how it's done.

__________________
How we deal with death is at least as important as how we deal with life. --CAPTAIN KIRK, Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan
Register to Reply Score 1 for Good Answer
Commentator

Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 74
Good Answers: 1
#13
In reply to #10

Re: Tool to Measure Impact/Crushing Energy

02/17/2013 10:38 PM

Exactly right, but I'd add that something not considered in a SRA is the human factor involved with whatever kind of impact risk in play here. What are the avenues by which a potentially panicky person could aggravate the impact accident? I've seen many people do exactly the wrong thing at the wrong time over the years. Never underestimate an employee's chances of compounding a bad situation. That's bad risk management too.

Register to Reply
Power-User

Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: California
Posts: 184
Good Answers: 10
#11

Re: Tool to Measure Impact/Crushing Energy

02/13/2013 11:41 PM

If you know the force of impact that will cause damage to a human body part, you can use pieces of Balsa wood. Cut the balsa to the thickness that would break if that particular force is applied. The balsa can be clamped into a bridge like form and keep thinning it down until you have the exact measure you want. One of the nice things about balsa is that it is very inexpensive. No Oink or Moo involved.

__________________
A hand without an arm is a useless tool
Register to Reply Score 1 for Good Answer
Active Contributor

Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 16
#12

Re: Tool to Measure Impact/Crushing Energy

02/14/2013 11:28 AM

Guarding is often function limiting and results in removal of guards by end users if over designed. This is hard to objectively analyse, but should be part of any safety review. Safety experts often neglect this factor, because once liability is met, the human can be ignored. It cannot be ignored.

In any case, the one practical and informative tool (in semi wafer industry) that we often used was a standard cedar pencil (balsa mentioned above is similar). We fully admitted that it would never be a certified test, but still very useful to asses risk and became an internal standard. If the area of interest was accessible and a pencil placed in that area broke while in use, we reassessed both the guarding and control of energy. We would also look at the paint, if it was cut vs dented, we would assess the risk to injury higher if we could not eliminate the 'sharp' edge. Measuring force is not enough, and should be easily calculated via mechanics anyway.

I can envision the use of hot dog, with the best example being the "Sawstop" machine to display this. It is really an impressive video if you have not seen it (search on name). However, you must be looking at severity of injury due to use of the equipment by trained individuals for industrial machines. For example, there are many tools meant to cut, trim, etc., such as a chain saw, jigsaw, handsaw. Could any of these be certified with your current test methods? It will make your head spin if you really think about it too much. As such, it seems that hot dog would probably not pass a random cut test along the sharp edges of the guarding itself and so you may want to think about using that as your standard.

Good luck and take care!

Register to Reply Score 1 for Good Answer
Register to Reply 13 comments

Good Answers:

These comments received enough positive votes to make them "good answers".

"Almost" Good Answers:

Check out these comments that don't yet have enough votes to be "official" good answers and, if you agree with them, vote them!
Copy to Clipboard

Users who posted comments:

Byron Jay (1); fixitorelse (1); JPool (1); lyn (1); N. (1); tcmtech (1); tommyb2 (1); Tornado (1); truth is not a compromise (2); twm22columbia (3)

Previous in Forum: Pickling 2 Ton Wire Rod   Next in Forum: Chemical Analysis of Weld Metal

Advertisement