Ceramic Coating for Increases in Horsepower

The general practice of smoothing out intake and exhaust port passages plus giving them a good polish job along with the combustion chamber surfaces have proven themselves to be worth the work.

However once you get past the basics of making the areas that have the most influence on air flow smooth and shiny the addition of exotic materials tend give diminishing returns for the added costs and work involved.

So what kind of engine is it and are you intending to go for shear power or efficiency with this build up?

I wonder if those automotive ceramic coatings are similar to the ceramic coatings being used on the latest non-stick cookware that is also capable of withstanding really high temperatures.

I put pistons in my Ford 460 V8 project some years ago that had Teflon coated skirts.

Don't know it they did any good though but they were a cheap add on option for the kit I used.

Kind of missing building engines now. Maybe I will have to dig something up in my shop and play for a bit soon. The used oil burning mini diesel co gen experiment was an interesting project that has been sitting for way too long.

The $120+ monthly electric bills now would be a good excuse for bringing it back to life.

In the early 80's there was all this research of using sunflower oil for diesel. What ever happened to that?

When I left ND the electric bill was less then $0.05/KWH, vs 12 cents here in IA. I thought the Garrison dam kept power cheap. You need to get the waist gas from all that flaring going up there. That's really foolish this is happening. I understand the hydrogen sulfide is a problem. The aquifer was ruined from the previous boom. They punched so many holes through it, you can't drink from your well anymore without treatment. At least that was the problem around Watford City.

Quite a few years ago I heard of the idea of a solid ceramic engine instead of metal - the idea being it could run at much hotter temperature. I believe it was a pipe dream and the ceramics where never strong enough to be practical.

Did anyone else hear of this idea?

If I remember correctly, the material in question was Zirconia (Zirconium Oxide). Yes, it got a big rave, and died, never to be heard of again. The idea was to have Zirconia sleeves which could run at a higher temperature. One detail I don't remember was the matter of wall lubrication, if it was necessary and what would be used. Also not mentioned was how the heat was to be moved away from tops of pistons (with Zirconia crowns) and the cylinder head, which might also be Zirconia(?)

Zirconia apparently was more easily milled and ground than other ceramics, but still brittle compared with metal, and we know what happens when you apply sudden shocks to ceramics, eg when the fuel/air mixture ignites.

This is off topic a bit but maybe of some interest... Way back when working at a Cycle shop in San Diego, building choppers and motoX bikes, an older man named Bill Graves(?) would come in, watch us work and offer advice in all matters. He had been head engineer when Harley and Davidson were building up their company. He also designed engines for Honda as well a holding some world speed records. One thing I remember him suggesting, (for Harleys), was to scroll or make groves on the inside of the intake manifold which would cause the air/fuel mixture to be "whipped and mixed" more thoroughly yielding better combustion as opposed to just making it more polished for better flow.

To generate power from heat only, not the process of combustion, there is a clear advantage to having the engine run at higher temperature. Theoretically the ceramic coating can allow the engine to operate at a higher temperature since steel weakens if the metal temperature rises enough. So far as I have been able to determine, before this point is reached, lubrication of the piston seal becomes the limiting factor, so that it becomes necessary to redesign the piston to allow the piston rings/cylinder wall area to run at lower temperature than the cylinder head/piston head area. The ceramic coating seems to be useful only if it allows a temperature gradient protecting the steel from the hot gas temperatures within the chamber. My opinion is that a new type of ceramic which has the ability to withstand a high temperature gradient, providing insulation to heat flow, toughness to withstand thermal and mechanical shock and low mass is needed before ceramics will be useful. No one seems to have that now. Does anyone out there have something?

There is ongoing research into various intermetallics with promising characteristics.

.

A few notable high temp structural intermetallics being researched are aluminides of nickel, titanium, iron, or ruthenium.

.

I understand titanium aluminide (TiAl) is now being used for rotors in some automotive turbos, and I heard rumor of valves as well.

.

Hypereutectic aluminum alloys aren't classified as intermetallics, but these do have some high temperature characteristics that are already being leveraged in pistons. Aluminum with silicon as the principal alloy agent comprising around 15% to 20% exhibits low thermal expansion (allowing tight tollerances) and much improved high temp performance.

.

Cermets and MMC are other materials that might compete in this area.

thanks for your reply, I understand and agree with most of what you offer. years ago a company called Jet Hot coating was the new "big deal" in racing and street rodding circles. If I recall thee were some pretty substantial % of horsepower claims. these seem to have been replaced with gibberish about heat= power. I was hoping for something more tangable...dyno, etc

Gary851,

Welcome to the forum.

Thanks Lyn. I'm looking forward to it.

There is similar information available in the Iskenderian parts catalog. Several interesting articles spread throughout the catalog (and their web site) educate the buyer with the whys and hows of selecting the proper valve train. Valve sizing is one of the more interesting aspects there.

The dumbing down of the average (read...fund-limited) hot-rodder with the increasing popularity of the crate engines and bolt-on goodies (such as ceramic coated headers) with their boastful claims of 5-10 more RWHP per application gets on my nerves.

If you don't have the proper pump to begin with, then bolting on all those over-the-top if it's good enough for NASCAR then it's good enough for me...

Well, you get the point.

Fredski,

What fuel do you intend to run, increasing the combustion chamber temperatures will bring you much closer to detonation, I don't see any advantage's to raising the temperatures but to lower friction and temperatures could have a tremendous impact on increasing efficiency's.

Fredski most of the information I have reviewed about using ceramics is to reduce the parasitic lose effects of friction, heat and wear. You need to look at cermic bearings and metal to metal contact points such as found in the valve train, oil pump and so on.

I am interested in seeing what other benefits come from this application.

Keep us posted about your findings.

thanks for your input after looking at a ton of sites, reading everything I could, talking to racers (and a few clowns) I'm still of the opinion ceramics in the combustion chamber don't make a lot of sense unless you fear burning holes in pistons from real lean (turbo, nitrous) applications. I do however find a lot of interest in anti-friction coatings on rocker shafts, cam followers, etc, but here again I question the durability and longevity you can expect in the real world. no question they're slippery, but I wonder if it will still be there after the 1st oil change??

Spend the time and money on a good set of porting/polishing tools, and port match your intake and exhaust manifolds to the gaskets. Use tuned headers, the best ignition you can afford, the appropriate carb or FI, fuel delivery system and go FAAAST!

Remember Smokey Yunick? Hot Vapor Fiero, 51 MPG, 0-60 under 6 seconds, using vaporization, swirled heads? Also mentioned that he was researching a Ceramic Block--The discussion of his and others (Ralph Johnson) contributions and experiments still continue on Gear Head threads....Loads of conspiracy theories out there--

I remember reading that, sometimes wish I still had the article. His point was to try & create an adiabatic engine instead of wasting heat through extra cooling etc. I also remember reading about a Ford prototype ceramic engine in Poular Science or Popular Mechanics.

One common theme here was innovation. And innovation applied to industry runs up against inertia- sometimes one wins, sometimes the other. There is also a problem that directly relates to the concept of engines operating at higher temperatures, and that is the non-linear increase in the breakdown of oil and other available lubricating fluids that can still be handle when cold, as well as the greater tolerances needed in a cold engine. So there's still a lot more to look at before these things become reality.

So what sort of engine is this any way?

Vehicle, motorcycle, or something else and what characteristics are you wanting in the end result?

Methinks the advantage would not be more HP etc, but better fuel economy if (a durable) ceramic is applied to combustion chamber / valve heads / piston tops due to thinner 'quench distance' - less unburnt fuel.

Reason Wankel had such poor fuel economy was the poor shape of the combustion chamber - long and thin - meant large amounts of unburnt fuel mix quenched against walls.

So less unburnt fuel and less heat lost to the walls (all other things being equal) wouldn't yield an increase in power?

Must do -

I remember Jet Hot also. If they are worth a darn, they should be willing to send you some verifiable references. As for the exhaust coatings, I was of the belief that if a turbo was used, it was more efficient if the heat was contained in the exhaust pipe until it got to the turbo.

If you haven't been there already, try the Circle Track Magazine web site. They've printed many articles about using ceramics in engines over the years, and some of them are available by searching their web site. Not sure if they have all of the test data that you're looking for, but they have a good reputation for cutting through hype. By the way, Smokey Yunick wrote for them for several years.

good lead, thanks, gives me more to research