Shower Shocker (or Shockee)

Stray voltage have been around for 40 years in the dairy industry.

Dairy farmers were stonewalled and outspent by the power companies to try to keep a let on it.

It's still difficult to track down.

And we have discussed this before.

I reviewed that thread (from before I joined CR4). Interesting read.

I totally agree about stray voltage. It would be so much easier if we could actually "see" that portion of the spectrum instead of just modeling a visual representation. Taking into account all of the real world data is "virtually" impossible.

I had to review that article myself.

I agree, and early on, that is what is/was so hard to actually dianose the cause as well as the effects it may have on an individual or animal, and it still is.

What makes it more difficult, is (Arm Chair) experts will pass their opinions as conclusive fact, that would support their undermining motives, (Make a Sale) and you have to sift through it, because it may hold some value.

I have read a number of cases about stray voltage problems in a number of different fields.

By far the most common source is simply broken, bad, damaged, insufficient, improperly wired or outright missing earth grounding at the primary power source and or all other outlying points in the system.

Many older utility power supply systems did not use a return line on the HV side of the system but instead relied on only a few or even just one earth grounding rods and the earth itself for the return path.

Due to this a facility with a fairly high power demand could develop a sort of voltage island effect in its local vicinity within the soil itself with the average voltage differential between the common and earth lines and outlaying soils that rises as the distance from the primary power source point earthing connection grows.

What that meant is that at higher power demands the earth resistance itself would cause the common and ground circuits of the electrical system to rise above the true earth potential of the soil in the immediate area of the system and get respectively higher as the distance from the power source grows.

Given enough distance from the primary ground rod at the main meter panel and any metal or conductive object or media physically tied to to that panels common and earthing circuit could create a fairly high voltage offset between it and the actual soils around it.

The most reasonable fix for property with the stray earth voltage problem is to use multiple earth grounding rods all around the perimeter which will basically bring all the soil and earthing circuits within this zone to the same voltage potential.

By code now any outlying building or circuit breaker/distribution panels are required to have their own earth grounding rod or rods, based on the typical resistance of the surrounding soils, that are electrically tied to the rest of the electrical systems common and earth grounding circuits.

While I fully agree with TCMTECH #4, I do not buy the story as presented at all.

TCM is right in describing the ground used as return, as an abomination for efficiency. Everywhere I traveled in New Iersey and surround have that antiquated system.

On the other hand, EVERYTHING you own ought to be grounded, ought to be bonded to the ground rod at the power meter. Including water and drainage lines, if metallic. That is basic for safety, and none of the responsibility of the power provider to your home.

I checked out a few showers lately, and found zero chance to complete a circuit of "stray voltage". Besides, a few Volts and a very few milliAmps will give you such an unpleasant sensation, you will not persist "enioying" it.

Nor do I buy her having persistent problems from this. Oh, yes she has problems, but that is another kettle of fish entirely.

Hard to say what is going on... the shower problem could be bad grounding in the house. I would contact an electrician, not a certified building biology consultant, whatever that is. Shocks at the kitchen sink could very easily be static electricity. It happens around here all the time.

Same here. I am finding the shocks forma sink claim highly skeptical. First the person has to complete a circuit to get current to pass through them at normal 60 Hz frequency unless a very high voltage is present and the persons natural body capacitance is enough to cause a very small capacitive coupled circuit to form.

Anyway in any typical home the water mains and sewer mains are both brought in underground usually though long lengths of conductive pipe which places those two sources at very near earth soil grounding potential making an in home voltage potential between them highly unlikely or at least very small.

To take the even further in a typical home the vast majority of the structure and floors are made out of wood and other non conducting materials plus the floor covering itself like carpet, tiles, and plastics based materials so even then a person touching the sink has nothing on the floor to complete a circuit with.

Same with being in a shower. The water is coming in through either metal lines or plastic lines and the leaving through the sewer system which is all plastic pipe making any path through the person in the shower near impossible.

Now as far as the substation is concerned yes if they constructed it years ago with an inadequate earth grounding grid underneath it and there is a very high current being taken to ground from one of the primary supply or outgoing HV line then yes its highly likely that any nearby conductive materials like water lines and sewer lines could conceivably pick up a considerable amount of stray earth potentials. Granted even then if those potential are so high as to be humanly perceivable in a home there should be massive electrolytic breakdown of the water and sewer mains causing massive leaks and noticeable physical breakdown problems.

tcmtech said "Same here. I am finding the shocks from a sink claim highly skeptical."

Where I grew up in Long Island, NY, we - the whole family - regularly got shocks from our bathroom sink. I believe (this was a long time ago and i was just a kid) the panel was grounded to the cold water pipe only. there was no ground rod or ufer or anything other than the connection to the cold water pipe. this house was built approx 1960.

no, the shocks didnt pass through our body (at least not above 7 mA apparently), but the shock was notice-able to all. maybe there was slight conductivity through bare feet on a wet or damp tile bathroom floor.

"causing massive leaks" due differences in ground induced voltages?!?

By CODE, all "grounds" in a home tied together at the power meter ground rod. Additionally, most lines are plastic.

The plaintiff is lying thru her multimillion dollar teeth.

And the look quite pretty.

Yes but at the utility end under the street a lot of the piping in both the water mains and sewers is still steel or cast iron from ages ago and that will work as electrodes for near by high voltages and currents in the soil that a poorly grounded substation is more than capable of producing.

My thought is that the increased use of plastic lines may be the underlying cause of the event.

After all water is conductive and the person standing in the shower would be standing in water that completes the circuit through the body from the faucet contact which is usually metal down through the drain piping.

A parallel path if you will as the source water lines usually occupy the same soil as the underground electrical conductors in a utility easement.

Water leaks could allow the water to become a conductor inside the plastic lines and easily create a difference of potential inside the home between the water faucet(s) and the drain piping especially if the sewage system has old metal (cast iron) piping and/or water leaks near the substation grid.

Using copper piping throughout the home plumbing that is properly bonded to the electrical supply ground there would not be a difference in potential.

Here one for ya all. Back in the early 70's. The outside water faucet became "hot" one day to the touch. My experience as a kid. _{"I don't remember everything done"} But my dad finally connected a ground wire from the stove outlet to the water line under the sink. That fixed the problem.

Come to find out the neighbor's hot water heater had some sort of electrical problem because there fuse started blowing after the ground my dad installed. Anyway the problem was fixed our house water line was grounded.

Assume nothing.

A friend was getting his house wiring modified recently when the Electrician discovered that the main earth stake earth wire and the bonding earth wires of the metal pipework were all cut (likely by the previous owner of the house, for some reason).

This is extremely dangerous on our MEN earth system here, and wasn't discovered for 4 or so years. An electrical fault could have livened up the unearthed metalwork (kitchen sink, bathroom fixtures, etc) causing a fatal electric shock (which has happened a number of times here in NZ).

Of additional interest is that a previous Electrician did NOT pick this up when he inspected the house.

I find it quite astonishing that with all of the collected knowledge and experience on this site that very few seem to have read any of the back story. As I stated in my OP I have been following this story for some. This wasn't a one week, month, or year long trial.

A little internet research would show she had contacted local authorities several times. They had done some work in an attempt to clear her issue. She had also had several electricians in her house trying to ameliorate the issue, to no avail. None of this is imagined. There exists significant documentation to the issue showing measurable voltage and current throughout the house and the surrounding property. All of the issues are directly traceable to the local substation.

Does anybody really think the court system would hand out $$4M local tax dollars without expert witness and proof beyond a reasonable doubt? I pity the cynical who hold fast to that extent.

It all boiled down to everybody with a degree and position of authority saying too bad and expressing caveat emptor. In all fairness, which life is not, she did all she could to make a bad situation better. Most of the time the responses on this forum belittle the OP and inform them that they contact competent assistance, i.e., a *licensed* electrician or an engineering firm. The plaintiff did just that...several times over. What words of advice would one have at that point? Take them to court, that's what.

I would equate this to someone buying a house built on an unmarked graveyard and being held responsible for re-interring the bodies...not fair, but there it is and there goes your life.

The thing that allot of people do not realize (and its usually the armchair varity, I beleive I mentioned that varity in one of my links) is that humans just like animals all have different tolerance levels.
The Electric company does make an accerted effort... only because of past lawsuits that they stonewalled.

As far as the award, I think it was the court that had to decide, and what percentage of the parties involved was responsible.

i.e., if she did nothing, the court may not have awarded her much if anything at all. And the Electric Company did an attempt, so the award was not higher......., I think that 4 million is high, but then again, I did not suffer.

I didn't bother with reading this one, I just wanted to mention my dodgy friend's house wiring as a cautionary tale for those viewing this thread!