Patent Bar Exam?

No, Why would you?

Here's what one recent "graduate" said of his "patent bar exam".

From: Patent Bar Exam - $495

"I finished the first half of the exam in 2 hours and the second half in one and a half hours thanks to the fact that I had seen virtually all of the questions before. Needless to say I passed thanks to your course."

The blurb brags, "Our Exam Question/Topic Post and Exam Question Bank contain over 90% of the current exam questions."

I suppose there is some value to such cheating, if you need to defend bogus patents.

Some legitimate patent lawyers might want to know why you only know the answers to the questions and not the law behind them.

My goal is not to pass the patent bar exam, although that's a step in the path, but to be able to help people that might not be able to afford the current patent lawyer options. To do so, I need to pass the patent bar exam.

Maybe I need to change my question - has any non-lawyers on the message board chosen patent practice as something they do for all or part of their career?

Big E

Well, that's a noble cause.

You may find these people helpful:

American Intellectual Property Law Association

Or, maybe something from the USPO: E-Learning Intellectual Property Modules - United States Patent and ...

The secret to writing a strong patent is to learn to creatively use unintelligible language to describe the device.
Good luck.

The secret to writing a strong patent is to learn to creatively use unintelligible language to describe the device.

So true. Make it not worth the patent examiner's time to argue about.

I had a really good lawyer. Knew his way around a phrase like nobody I've ever known.

To wit:

"1. Apparatus for directing a stream of fluid against a substrate traveling through said apparatus, said substrate having first and second opposed generally parallel planar surfaces, said apparatus comprising:(a) a conveyor table for transporting said substrate, said conveyor table including(i) a first horizontally disposed axle carrying a first set of circular rollers contacting and supporting said first planar surface of said substrate in a generally horizontal orientation as said substrate moves over said rollers, and(ii) a second horizontally disposed axle generally parallel to said first axle and carrying a plurality of circular rollers contacting and supporting said first planar surface of said substrate in a generally horizontal orientation as said substrate moves over said rollers on said second axle, said rollers on said second axle being interdigitized with said rollers on said first axle;(b) waveform shaped baffle means interdigitized with said rollers on said first axle and said rollers on said second axle: and,(c) fluid supply means."

What do you think he's saying?

Thanks, lyn. I hope to be able to draft language like that for clients (or myself) one day. It sounds like a painting device or conveyor belt dishwasher.

Reading that language makes me think that simply taking the patent bar exam isn't enough training to draft solid patents. My alma mater, Arizona State, has started a masters level, one year degree that they say will provide training in how to draft patents, work with the USPTO, etc.

I'll look into the degree program because the feedback here makes it clear that simply passing the patent bar exam won't be sufficient to do a good job for people.

I'm surprised nobody here has taken the patent bar exam (or at least nobody has provided feedback that they have yet). I would think that's a logical next step for engineers that are innovating and creating new devices.

"conveyor belt dishwasher"

You get an A.

The photo is of my last "baby". Circa 1999. Develop/etch/strip PCB lines. Each module had different chemistry, delivered by spray nozzles, top and bottom.

The baffle helped segregate the process chemistry in different chambers.

This line was about 60 feet long and designed to run 24/7.

It does resemble a commercial dishwasher.

I guess I have a lot to learn about how to word the patent claims!

You'll do fine. It's just a learning process.

I had many discussions with Tod, my lawyer, over wording. He finally convinced me that full disclosure of the invention doesn't have to be in language that engineers readily understand.

I'm too literal minded to ever do it.

Cheers.

Since you're local:

Downtown Mesa Association
Shameless self promotion alert.↑

That language is actually required by the patent office.

You guys are forgetting something...the primary objective of government, is that they never run out of work. Matter of fact, as hard as they work, every year there is more to do.

Nothing is ever simple or finished.

"the primary objective of government, is that they never run out of work"

Who else will protect you from yourself, if not the government?

It's also a rich source of $ for attorneys.

Who do you think invented patent law?

If they're supposed to be protecting me from myself, they have failed. I've done damage that I can't even remember.

Why people trust them is beyond me. Everything is designed for their own growth.

I'd suggest that the doubters do some google research on just two things...

The war on drugs, and the war on poverty. I dare anyone to show me the success that trillions of our dollars have accomplished.

Come on! They've only been doing this for 250 years. Give it some time.

Yeah. Sometimes I get a little pessimistic. Everything will be fixed between 2014 and 2016. We're only $17 trillion in the hole; just a few trillion more, will get us to where we need to be.

Some kind words will do it...like Reagan; expanding the hell out of government, while telling us that government is the problem. At least he was man enough to identify the root of our problem.

I reviewed Patent and licensing information for the bar but never completed them. I happened to be Manager/Dir. of development of international licensing, technology development, patents and maintenance, technology transfer and contracts for a number of years which also worked into development of commercial after market sales, field engineering services, capital investment and analysis of spares, minerals processing plants analysis It became very lucrative for the company and became the basis of repeat plant sales and worldwide control of associated technology. Plant operators seemed to like the setup as it gave them continuous assistance in technology and services as well as assistance in their product marketing and sales.

Unfortunately, I never had the time to complete it and ended up having the lawyers on staff anyway. I also came to the conclusion that there was a heck of a lot more to it than just a piece of paper and decided there was some good in the term "Lawyer" after all.

The term "lawyer" doesn't mean squat. There are good people and bad people...finding a good person that happens to be a lawyer, just seems to be difficult.

I think I'm leaning toward not just sitting for the patent bar exam. As I stated above, Arizona State has launched a masters-level degree that trains people to actually practice patent law. It looks interesting (almost like taking only the patent classes they already offer): law.asu.edu/patentpractice

I would elect for a part time options since I'm still working, but I think my employer would support my participation. We'll see.

Thanks for the feedback. I agree that people are people. I'm hoping that I can "moonlight" by helping entrepreneurs submit their patent applications cheaper than they otherwise would while also adding a new dimension to what I bring to the table for my current employer.

Big E

Good luck. I hope that you suceed. It's an expensive proposition to hire an attorney.

Always good to hear a success story.

I ended up firing my patent attorney. I had already paid him thousands, we were getting down to very close to final acceptance, and I had to guide him on how to respond to a couple of previous office actions.

The reason I fired him, is because he refused to even glance at a one page office action without charging me 2 hours...almost $600. I had read the action in less than 5 minutes on public PAIR. Maybe that's common practice, but it was the last straw for me. I'm self employed too, and my clients regularly get a degree of donated time from me; the dividends come back in referrals.

Thanks K. Like any field, there is the good and the bad. Among patent practitioners, patent examiners, and clients. I'll spare everyone the war stories, but for anyone who has gone through any frustration with an examiner, you will probably find this amusing:

http://www.patentlyo.com/patent/2013/04/dont-write-this-letter-to-the-patent-office.html

I don't condone the attorney's action for a number of reasons, but I understand the frustration that can arise with certain cases. I've had comparable thoughts left unexpressed. The Patent Office requires all communications to be comported with "decorum and courtesy."

jhammond

That's funny. I can understand the frustration. I would not want to be an examiner.

I forgot a part of my story, and it's what frosted me the most. They kept insisting that I agree to pay the two hours time. I called and talked to his paralegal, mentioned that I had read the action on PAIR, and she went dead silent. Finally she said, "Oh, you accessed PAIR?"

I think that he assumed, (probably correctly), that most clients don't go navigate through the PTO website. By the time he found out that I had already read the action, it was too late to walk it back...he would have had to admit that he was trying to bilk me. Live and learn, on my part.

Yes, K, that's funny, it sounds like you surprised the paralegal and attorney. They probably prefer uneducated clients. They were probably thinking like in that soup commercial, "I wonder what other questionable choices I've made. (That he knows about.)"

I prefer the opposite. In fact I will help them learn to use PAIR. Once their application is published, they can check the status of it any time they want to. Win win. I don't get bothered with them asking for information (which often I've already sent and they can't find), and they don't get an annoying bill from me for having to communicate the same info twice. Or thrice.

jhammond

jhammond,

Thanks for your insights. I really appreciate your direct response and it's nice to hear from someone that has gone this route.

Do you think a program like the one at ASU would have helped you get up to speed in your patent practice more quickly? You sound like someone that would be successful anyway because you're willing to work hard to learn, but I'm hoping that a program like the one they've created would help me know what I'm doing early in the process.

If you didn't see the link above to the program, it's law.asu.edu/patentpractice. Any thoughts are much appreciated.

Big E, I'm sure that the ASU program would be valuable, probably more than just doing a patent bar review course because of the scope of it. However, like engineering or any other professional field, at some point, there is no substitute for getting into it hands on. But starting a practice from scratch with zero experience would be extremely difficult if you have bills to pay while you try it. I was fortunate to start at a very small law practice to break in for a couple of years and get some experience before deciding to go solo. That's not an easy opportunity to find. I left the firm when there was a disagreement over a client matter involving ethics-related issues... I quit on 10 minutes notice. (Everyone should do that at least once in a lifetime - it's very therapeutic.) But at least I had some experience and contacts in the business and clients that wanted to stick with me.

Other alternatives are corporate IP departments, and large law firms. For the most part, the latter have partners, associates, and everyone else. Patent agents are not particularly valued at many law firms and are led to believe they couldn't make it on their own and need to be at a firm and under the guidance of seasoned attorneys. And probably some couldn't, and do. But certainly not all.

jhammond

I wish I would have had someone like you on the case.

On the other hand, I think he cut off his nose to spite his face. That little indiscretion cost him having his name on my patent, which issued just a couple of months afterward. If I were a patent attorney, that would matter to me. Maybe he's too busy to care...I'm just glad it's all over with.

In fact, law school does NOT prepare law students or lawyers to take the Exam. Most law students and lawyers also take a prep course before sitting for the Exam.

It IS a tough Exam with an official pass rate hovering just above 50%. We recommend spending about 200 hours over about 2 months to prepare.

Many have said that the new "first to file" system of the America Invents Act favors Patent Agents (engineers and scientists who have passed the Exam).

Sincerely,
Mark Dighton
PLI's Patent Bar Review

Thanks, Mark. My current plan is to participate in the ASU program. They actually provide a scholarship to purchase a prep course before taking the exam as part of their degree program. I don't know how much it is yet, but they indicated they were setting a dollar amount for the scholarship in the near future.

I'll look into PLI.

Big E

Notre Dame also has a similar, highly regarded program, a one-year Master of Science in Patent Law. But I assume you're more inclined to the Arizona program because of the location. Let me know if you want more info on Notre Dame's program. I'm more familiar with that.

Yes, the ASU program is more appealing to me because of location. I can do part time at the ASU program while I keep my job. ASU also seems to be a well regarded law school (top 30), so it's not too huge a drop off from a school like ND.

Big E

I talked to my friends at the NOtre Dame program, and they say that they expect it will be online by the fall, so if the ASU program doesn't work out for you for any reason, you might give them a look. I don' t know the ASU program, but I know the Notre Dame program is good.

Thanks, Mark. I'm an ASU alum so I would prefer to support their new program. I hope you reach out to them to learn more about their program. It seems like it will be high quality.

Maybe you can negotiate the same fee for referring students that you've worked out with Notre Dame!

In all seriousness, location is important to me. Supporting my alma mater is important to me. And I like the course offerings of the ASU program a little better.

Already did so. I'm of course looking to support all such programs. I think it's a terrific idea! (I helped get a few started that didn't quite take off, and I hate to say that I think any such program probably has to be online to survive. There just aren't enough interested people in any one geo location to make this idea fly.)

[Many have said that the new "first to file" system of the America Invents Act favors Patent Agents (engineers and scientists who have passed the Exam)]

Mark, I haven't heard that. Have you heard/read any reasons given for that perception?

jhammond

My impression, is that the "first to file" system favors the corporate big shots.

Most garage tinkerers don't have thousands of dollars laying around to invest in a patent. The "first to invent" system bought them some time to get some money together. Of course, both systems will be abused by unscrupulous people.

K, FTF favoring the big shots is the general perception, and it may work out that way. But I'm not so sure. In order to take advantage of first-inventor-to-file, large corporations will need to fundamentally change the way they do business (i.e., a new paradigm! to use corporatespeak). This change will need to happen in the face of Dilbertian bureaucracies and incentive systems. Maybe some large companies can go from conception to written Invention Disclosure to internal corporate vetting to a patent application draft to inventor review to final application draft and filing in a few months, but I doubt many can. (At my former Fortune 500 employer, it took a year on "high priority" cases. Good luck cutting that by 75%.) Small technology businesses and solo inventors may be short on resources, but they can move a lot faster than Pachyderm Incorporated when they have to.

jhammond

True enough. Corporations can't turn on a dime.

I would imagine that there will be an increase in provisionals. At least those are affordable and can buy the little guy some time.

The biggest thing for the little guys to remember under FTF, is to keep their mouths shut; which ain't easy when you think you have something really cool.

As someone says below, the new "first to file" system will emphasize the importance of filing provisional applications, and I know several firms and corporations who are hiring more agents to file those provisionals. (Yes, that's mostly the big companies and firms, as someone else says, who can afford to file provisionals right and left while they wait to see whether the invention pans out to the degree that a full application is warranted. But that's the way the work...and the job market...is going these days.)

On a related matter "Patents", I would hope that someday an individuals efforts in development and trying to secure ownership, worldwide, and even perhaps some compensation for the efforts, will pay off.

As I have dealt mainly in international affairs, for over 40 years, I have been continually flabbergasted at the arrogance and dishonesty of people and countries copying and perhaps I should say stealing technologies with their government approvals. The activity is too big for the size of our government to handle and the openness of our society and right to information act is too cumbersome. We allow anyone to enter, pay for their education with foreign aid grants and open the books and not only give them copies of the patents, teach them how to do it in classes. In many instances and perhaps all, they take the information back to their country and begin making it or copying it and then if there is a problem ask you how to correct it.

The only saving grace is that through their arrogance they try to fix it and convert it and make it cheaper and guess what, screw it up in most cases. But it is still a matter of integrity, which is something a lot of cultures do not have.

It is recommended to either attend a live preparatory course or to complete a home study/online course. There are a large variety of preparatory materials available. Get to now more here.

No I haven’t taken that test yet but will be taking in next year. My law school will be completed very soon so I have already started preparing for the Bar test. I think subscribing to one of the Mobile Bar Review Courses will be useful for me. What do you think about it?

I don't see any prep courses for the patent bar in the link. But most of the courses, including the one I run, have homestudy options.

Mark Dighton, Admin. Director, Patent Office Exam Course

PLI

www.patentofficeexamcourse.com

I advise you to use this site here https://paperleaf.ca/ there are essays that will be useful for a future lawyer. So this is a must-read.

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