Underwriter Lab Certification

One question comes to mind right off the bat...

Is the equipment in question capable of being UL listed? UL (or any reputable listing lab) will not simply show up and label equipment that doesn't meet requirements.

Yes, 95% of our equipment is purchased. Bridgeport mills, Okuma lathes etc. I do have some shop made drill machines but they are guarded and controlled to OSHA specs.

Commercially purchased equipment would likely already have been UL listed. You should be able to get that info from the various manufacturers or via internet searches.

You should go ahead and contact UL. Once they assign an agent to work with you, that agent can check UL's library to see what has already been listed by them. My guess is that the figure they quoted assumed you were seeking to have a new product listed, or that they mis-understood what you needed for your own shop floor.

This has an odd sound to it. I am not an expert and I'm not saying that anything is wrong but it sure seems like somewhere there is either a misunderstanding or something significant is being left out.

It is common for equipment being manufactured and sold to need UL certification/listing. I don't know if that is legally required or if it is just required by insurance companies. If UL certification on a product is appropriate and you don't have it then you are almost guaranteed to be a big looser at lawsuit lottery. (I could be wrong, ask a lawyer)

So, are the city officials only referring to the I "do have some shop made drill machines" equipment you referred to? You are both the manufacturer and the consumer of these items.

Please help us better understand your problem. Are the city officials only referring to the equipment you purchased? What part of the city is making this requirement? Is it the Building Department, City Engineer, Health Department, Fire Department, etc. Have you been written up by an official for not having UL certs on everything? Are you trying to comply to avoid something bad like a fine or to get something good like a tax break?

• IAPMO R&T - a competing certification body, based in Ontario, California, USA
• MET Laboratories, Inc. - a competing testing laboratory based in Baltimore, Maryland, USA
• NTA Inc - a competing certification agency based in Nappanee, Indiana, USA
• PEI Testing - a competing certification agency based in Goshen, Indiana, USA

Never heard of this, and I've set up/started engineering and production facilities in Arizona.

Must be a Texas thing. UL certification is typically required of the manufacturer of equipment, not the user.

OSHA is bad enough, but add some municipal clerk into the mix, and you are in trouble.

If Grand Prairie is anything like Mesa, AZ, start at the top and work down. Have your top guy call the mayor and city manager, and remind them of the benefits their fair city has enjoyed as a result of your company moving there and what a shame it would be if your business were forced to move on, due to onerous municipal regulations that are hamstringing business. Throw in the number of people who would be unemployed if you were forced to move to another, "more business friendly" location.

Good luck.

The UL label is not required, not even for a manufacturer. It will be punished by the marketplace, by not being able to sell well without the UL label. So it is sensible to have one for the seller of the equipment. Specialty equipment, sold in small numbers never has it, while its critical components, like power supplies ALL have it in a well designed specialty equipment. Thereby providing good or much better safety for good common sense and for insurance purposes. That much I know.

A little tinpot (mis)interpreting locally has absolutely no say as to your equipment. Your insurance policy / company does. They have the expertise to evaluate the degree of dangerousness of what you are doing. And setting policy accordingly.

The tinpot may control the building inspection, but nothing further. As long as you do not change the building, electric, plumbing, he has NO further say.

If you or the owner allows this to fester, no good will ever come out of it.

As recommended before, start at the top, and squash it with no mercy. If you want to live reasonably, that is.

End of a no rant right here.

The UL label is not required, not even for a manufacturer. It will be punished by the marketplace, by not being able to sell well without the UL label. So it is sensible to have one for the seller of the equipment. Specialty equipment, sold in small numbers never has it, while its critical components, like power supplies ALL have it in a well designed specialty equipment.

Your insurance company has the expertise to set your insurance rate. The little local tinpot does not enter the mix.

He or she is finished with the building inspection. That's it.

You or the owner need to squash the tinpot from the top, hard. If you desire a halfway peaceful life there, that is.

I'm guessing that your local "city" inspector is an electrical inspector who is wanting UL certs on your electrical equipment? Or does he have some problem with the building wiring? Further, I expect your machine tools are pretty old and any UL cert stickers are long since disappeared off the machines or were never there in the first place?

I might be way off base here, but I would expect other UL things like machine guarding would fall to OSHA and not to the city authorities. Thus my focussing on electrical issues.

I expect that there are a few avenues of approaching the issue:

1. Like others have suggested, have your top guy go to the higher ups in the city and see what can be done to reduce or eliminate the efforts necessary to placate the inspector. Sounds like the guy was having a really bad day before he came to your shop.

2. Review the requirements with the inspector and see what he really wants. Maybe he saw a machine or two with REALLY BAD wiring that needed to be improved or replaced for safety and if you can get that dealt with maybe they will back off a little.

2(a). I'm wondering if the inspector is going over the top by seeing an old machine that might have been built to '50's electrical standards and interpreting that since it has been moved into another shop, it needs to be brought up to 2013 standards. Kind of like doing renovations on a '50's house. You have to renew the electrics that you expose but don't have to rip the whole house wiring apart and redo it. I don't think he can force you to do this with your equipment.

3. If they are revved on UL listing because of #2, see if you can compromise by having a third-party electrical contractor bring all the machines up to an acceptable minimum standard to meet the National Electrical Code (NEC) as it would apply to your shop.

4. Only after these avenues have been explored would you have to start talking to UL (or other certifying agencies that are accepted in your state, as others have suggested) However, I would expect that the agencies would insist on bringing the machines up to NEC standards before they even put their noses into the panels.

I've seen Chinese machine tools come into Canadian shops without a Canadian certification such as CSA or cUL. They may have UL but in Canada our 'spectors need to see the "c" before they are happy. This is dealt with by getting in a licensed electrician who brings the electrics up to Canadian Electrical Code (CEC) standards, usually by adding a grounding wire or two. The inspector then takes a look and puts a little sticker in the box (usually meaning he got his inspection fee) and away we go. I don't see why something like this wouldn't work for you.

Hope this helps,

J.

I have to agree with some others here, UL is NOT A MANDATORY REQUIREMENT. It is simply voluntery by a manufacturer only. And an end user is NOT required to have UL on his equipment or manufacturing equipment. You can have it on your end product you offer to the market place. You dont even need to have ISO 9000 certifications either, it is all voluntery. Not law. Not even under USA laws. I would ask, what is this city officials kickback. Is he a Muppet who thinks you are stuipid?

The good thing about bribery and corrupion, It works, world wide!

On top of that, if the only people who need to be satisfied are clueless paper pushing gate keepers; then, some really good forged UL stickers strategically placed, where it is difficult to see, and where they didn't look the first time might be worth the effort.

I have had to deal with having equipment that I installed certified to UL standards. I used MET. But first call and find out if they will except their certification. There is a MET branch in Austin.

MET Austin

13301 McCallen Pass
Austin, TX 78753
[P] 512.287.2500

[F] 512.287.2513

My guess is they will since MET has found it necessary to put a branch there.

We have used MET before and they were a little cheaper than UL. Some cities and some parts of Canada require NRTL inspections before allowing our equipment to be operated. Depending on the size of the shop & the complexity of the equipment 30K isn't too far out of line. We sometimes pay that much for one piece of equipment.

I went through this in southeastern Minnesota in 1987.

I had purchased a Japanese-made CNC and when the electrical inspector inspected it and found no UL label, he threatened to red-tag it. He also said I had to have a UL underwriter inspect and label it before he would sign off.

After researching the costs of doing this, I told the inspector that we will just have to close our shop because the costs were prohibitive.

He said my alternative was to have a MN licensed electrical engineer go through the machine and spec changes necessary to comply with MN codes, and then have a MN licensed electrical contractor perform the changes.

After researching further, I discovered that in the MN Electrical Codes there was a clause stating that I could request the Electrical Inspector to do the detailed inspection himself. He begrudgingly showed up a few days later with his boss and they spent four hours going through the machine and the schematics. He sent me a report saying I needed a .5 amp fuse for the cabinet cooling fan and that I had to have a MN licensed electrical contractor perform the work, or he would red tag it! I complied, he signed off and we lived happily ever after.

That inspector is still in that territory and still pushing UL (UL is probably in his pocket) while I am not aware of any other inspectors in MN doing the same thing.

I believe that lazy inspectors use this because it 'covers' the electrical codes and they feel if it complies with UL, it will comply with local codes.

In my perspective as experienced, the very first thing that you should do is check and validate that whatever the UL standard requirement being enforced had been codified by the local city council? Remember that Anything deemed necessary to the constituents must be first codified as part of the local laws before they can be legally enforced! You need to do some research on what are the legally enforceable requirement for your area. UL Standards are just standards not federally codified, but may at times be adopted and enforced any small community or entity.