Student Loan Problems: One Third Of Millennials Regret Going To College

Well,

There was a fast food place, somewhere in Florida I think, that was looking for burger flippers, but...............they had to have a college degree.

Go figure!

"How could the whole mess be improved to prevent this sort of outcome?"

It could not have been. The world is chaotic now, it has always been chaotic and it will always be chaotic.

The only way to fix it is to become isolationists again and do everything here, ourselves.

Maybe we can talk Apple into investing some of the $70,000,000,000.00USD they have tucked away in tax free Ireland.

The world has gotten more chaotic from our viewpoint. Isolation depends. It didn't help China or the Soviet Union. Of course, had they practiced Capitalism, isolationism in general might have worked for everyone. Could we argue that cultural differences might be at the root of differences in how nations approach economics? And what about Latin America in this context?

Also, your response implies you think the problem is rooted in economics more so than advancing/shifting technologies. Is that correct?

Germany has adapted to a global economy, albeit, not without pains. As the article about Germany points out, wage adjustments were part of coping. Again, how much is due to cultural differences? The trend towards globalization couldn't help but put pressure on labor to readjust to world scales. But I don't think U.S. industries can provide reliable proof they have been forced into outsourcing and moving operations overseas. Here is one long and detailed paper widening the view of globalization, tracing its origin further back than in the terms we think of today. I suppose globalization has existed as long as sea travel. Air travel contributes, but air freight still can't compete with shipping.

But this is somewhat of a digression. You think there is no solution short of isolation. Sitting still and doing nothing isn't "American," even if that turns out to be the best course.

I've got to wonder about the parents, many of whom co-signed these loans. They should have tried harder to at least have their kids minor in something useful like accounting, marketing or some other business field - some marketable skill in addition to their 'socially conscious' degree in women's studies or art history.

There was a story last year, their son was in his last year of college, can't recall the major, but it didn't sound very marketable. Died in a car crash, and they came after the parents because they co-signed. I think there is insurance you can take out for that, but a situation like that, being so young, a life insurance policy is or should be a requirement.

Yes, I remember that. A very sad case.

It does seem to me that these loans ought to include a term life insurance policy on the student (like private mortgage insurance) payable by the parents. [Or for that matter, the bank could self-insure and take out an insurance policy on each loan - after all, the parent could die, too.] For most young people, term insurance is inexpensive.

Many schools have medical insurance as part of the student fees; a term insurance plan could be made mandatory for students with loans above a certain amount.

In my case my son had scholarships and some small loans that covered most of his expenses. I had to pay some fees for his first 4 years, and since he took 5 years to finish it was all out-of-pocket for me that 5th year. He continued on to get a Master's degree - all paid for by him. His loans are nearly paid off now - by him. He has an excellent job as a manager in IT.

Now that is something to be proud of. And that was a good selection for a career. Going through college some think it should be a free ride, but when you earn you degree, and by earning, I mean studying and too a certain degree, trying to keep from starving ;) it is satisfying........when you finally through.

When i was in college, I was thankful to visit my parents,......... To get a good meal, clothes washed...... And if your lucky, dad puts gas in your car. :)

Both my kids graduated from college. I paid for my daughter's education. Gave her an American Express card (not an endorsement) and told her to not to go overboard. She didn't. My son, did it all himself. Pell Grants and hard work and he paid his own way through.

They both lived at home through this, then went off and became successful, and self sufficient. That was the 1990's.

If they were starting out today, the same education, at Arizona State University (Go Devils!) would cost much, much more than it did back then.

Today, I don't think it'd be worth it.

I would say your experience is possibly an indictment of the parents. We will never know. Plus, I'm guessing your a Boomer or bordering. We should note these are likely not children of Baby Boomers. A nuanced analysis might argue that kids can be more amenable to grandparents knowledge than parents, in which case, Millenials grandparents would be Baby Boomers, who might be conveying the wisdom of the "Greatest (?) Generations" grandparents. A Sort of cultural epigenetics.

Assuming that you are correct, which I don't, what do you propose as a remedy?

I can't buy into "epigenetics" as a cause, or result.

Oh, no. I meant it more as a metaphor than as a hard influence. But before totally discarding the idea of some real impact, if stress (poor food supply, etc.) can contribute to an epigenetic response, then...? I really was thinking of the relationship between grandparents and grandchildren. Children often have adversarial relationships with parents, but revere their grandparents. That is what I was referring to. So a child's receptivity to the "wisdom" of a grandparent might be better than with a parent, even though the perspective offered might be similar. Rebellion is a common passageway in child/parent relationships. Since epigentics is about generational influence, I just saw a similarity.

One idea of a helping factor, since I don't know if there is a neat and tidy solution, is what I am about to post below as a reaction to SavvyExacta's post. It's just one idea, but I think worth considering.

Depends. We're now raising my wife's 3 grandchildren. 6,7 and 14, all boys.

Two of them have been with us all their lives, got the young one when he was 4.

This relationship does not have the classic "spoil them and send them home" flavor, because they are home.

I just don't know if we will even be able to afford college for them, and am struggling with what to tell them about college. Who knows what the job market will look like in 10 years.

I'm at a complete loss.

You've probably have already seen RAMConsult's post. It was a few minutes after yours. I posted a response to his, just now. Maybe coop degree programs are a well-kept secret. It certainly might help in your situation. Bless you for doing what you are doing.

Thanks.

It's certainly something to consider.

So much depends on the children, and in this case, they've seen both sides of life. In the short times they were with their mother they had a glimpse of the sordid life.

Hopefully that will be enough incentive for them, when added to our support.

Time will tell.

Enough of this.

Raising a family is not like it used to be. But you write the script as you go.

How could the whole mess be improved to prevent this sort of outcome?

For one thing, the students and/or parents (if they are not mature enough) themselves have to take responsibility.

Sure when you go to college, a goodness percentage don't know what they want and go unclassified for the first year or two. But when you decide upon a degree, get one that's life sustainable as well as rake table.

But if you go ahead and drop $100,000.00 on a degree to be a $28,000/ year social worker where the market that's already saturated, you and you only is responsible.

Even though there are no guarantees, you would have a better chance.

... so maybe an "Idiots" or "Dummies" guide to life planning? Only, intelligent people do make mistakes.

Well if you didn't make mistakes, then......... You're not working.

Btw, I had a lot of typos with my auto correct.... 'rake table' is suppose to be 'responsible'

Or the other way around. Don't be square, be a round.

is there an engineering related question in this or just a personal random societal observation?

I vote for a PRSO.

A personal reaction to a societal observation, of potential societal concern. And engineering, only considering asking those with an engineering mindset how they view the problem. These kinds of general threads aren't uncommon. I just thought some discussion might be interesting, since a variety of factors could contribute to this. After all, engineers are practical people, eh?

One could not expect educated (pun intended) predictions on such life decision moments from the new generation, them not taking a minimal of established stability in our societies for granted. Unfortunately they were not warned that long term stability is not something you can expect by the actions of the SOBS we seem to vote for. S.M.

I'm thinking like phoenix911 - you have to consider the cost of your education vs. what you will likely be making. There are so many factors - expense of the school, chosen career field, whether you can qualify for scholarships/loans/grants, school location, public vs. private...

Choosing a college isn't easy and many high schools (at least the one I went to) don't offer much in terms of help. They seem to, but you still need to do your own research. At my high school, all freshmen and their parents met with guidance counselors at the beginning of the year to map out high school classes. My guidance counselor asked, "You're not planning to go to college, are you?" I was in all honors classes and ranked around third in my class.

I don't think most 18 year olds really know what they want to do or comprehend working for 40+ years. Once you're in college, I think it's really important to take advantage of internships and working in your field over the summer. You can decide if it's really for you and, if not, change your mind before it's too late.

A separate issue is those who continue education because they can't find a job. (And use any extra loan money for unnecessary living expenses...) This goes back to whether that degree will pay for itself in the long run. I got a master's degree, but a doctorate just isn't worth the time or money in my field.

First, I note the cynical question to you about your intentions for college. Tsk, tsk.

Two things you mention catch my attention, SavvyExacta.

"...many high schools (at least the one I went to) don't offer much in terms of help."

That would seem systemic. So that's one area of improvement for "the mess." But how? Now that you've been through it all, what improvements would you make to a "help" system for counseling?

The other item, is your mention of internships. College should be considered, and understood, as a long term decision. Since most high school students have summers off, looking for internships, in fields of interest, during summers -- at least in the junior or senior years -- would seem very helpful. Local business should be encouraged to participate in that.

For most of my adult life, I have been attracted to the idea of a mandatory national service league/group of some sort. Not military, (although I wouldn't necessarily discard that idea) as in Israel, for example, but something between H.S. and college. It certainly isn't a new idea. More than one President has supported the idea. My Dad served in the CCC, which according to one article/memoir, had a military culture to some degree, since it was under the control of the military. (Discipline and delayed gratification are very related.) Later in life I had a friend who volunteered for the Peace Corps. There is no experience like living in another country, for a while, to broaden one's horizons and put one's own life and culture in a context. I think most students are burned out on school, by the end of H.S., anyway, and a break doing something different, with the opportunity to travel, would be attractive to many. School attendance is pretty much mandatory, unless one home schools their children. So mandatory national/public service of some sort isn't a drastic idea.

If the idea is shocking to some, or seems extreme, I would suggest that reaction is, possibly, a measure of our collective tendency to become weaker as standard of living improves. Many Boomers parents worked hard from childhood on, maturing much quicker than kids today. Childhood is now seen as a "special" time that children shouldn't be deprived of. This idea would be a compromise. Childhood would be had until it's time for national service. Also, many underprivileged young people "volunteer" for military service to take advantage of the "perks" it offers. I wouldn't advocate such perks for a non-military national service. It would be like a continuation of the idea of an "allowance," which is almost an expectation from my generation on. It mars the ideal of selfless service. A modest pay scale would offer the opportunity to learn "financial planning." I would think (hope?) such experience on a resume would be a plus. Hopefully, the influence of the experience would be manifest in the person, without need to have it documented on paper.

I think, in some ways, the monoculture that is being created worldwide, by technological gadgets, has a down side as well as a good side. Without a counter view of life, outside our own, stagnation can easily occur.

Life is so much more than "book learning." Maturing happens mostly when a person has to confront life outside the shelter of their parents care. This is the type of experience that would foster that process. I think such an experience would also produce better judgment and choices. I see it as a win-win proposition. I'd be happy to see some of the military budget siphoned off for this sort of thing. Americans, for the most part, are too provincial. (Speaking of isolation. ) I didn't have the opportunity for such an experience in my youth. I had a low draft number during the Vietnam War, but failed my physical, due to prior medical problems in my H.S. years, otherwise I might have. But our parents really didn't treat my brother and I like children. We were expected to be "little adults." And I am grateful for that. I think it was the influence of the hardships they endured in their lives. I don't know what my parents would have thought if the Peace Corps. had occurred to me, but I was unaware of it at the time.

(As a side note about military service... I think the progression from volunteer to privatization has been destructive of the ideal of military service. Privatization can usually be equated with, "for profit." I don't advocate mandatory military service, but I do favor a draft during war time, with very limited deferments. Nothing like, true, unavoidable, national involvement in war, as opposed to "volunteerism," to make the reality and consequences of war, personal. That hasn't coincided since WWII, when volunteers were many, and not for "perks." Who wouldn't rather be shopping at a mall and socializing with friends, rather than exposed to the risk of getting maimed or killed by people you have never even met? As one famous person who was able to avoid service in Vietnam said, "I had better things to do." What a callous thing to say to those who did go and to their families.

Some things we read jump off the page and burn into our brain. A few sentences that relate to this, which I read years ago in the book, "Gangs of America: The Rise of Corporate Power and the Disabling of Democracy," (available online in PDF form) and which made that type of impression on me is:

Besides pioneering the use of joint-stock capital and limited liability, the East India Company is historically significant because it was quite simply the most powerful corporation that has ever existed. Imagine a private company so unaccountable it conducts its own criminal trials and runs its own jails, so dominant it possesses an army larger than any other organized force in the world, and so predatory that for more than two centuries it squeezes the economy of the richest country in the world until observers report that some regions have been "bled white.

Given the current, seeming, unaccountability of the banking industry and other large corporations, an eventual return to such power may not be so far fetched.)

I really don't intend to make such long posts. It's just, so often, one thought leads to another, and before I know it...

It interesting about being prepared for college.

I grew up in a rural farming community, and don't think our school was no different than any others. But the 'help' preparing for college for students was selective.

Coming from the farm I was basically written off by the teachers, as was by friends who were also written off.

In other words not taking seriously, the students that were more affluent basically students from the small towns were favored, which was petty.

Well I graduated about 35th in a graduated class of 64. ....... ( I blended in :). )

An interesting thing I noticed, on my the 30 year reunion The upper gradutes went on to college, and the drop up rate was very high, 4 graduated out of 20.

The lower graduates either went on to college a few years out after high school (with a more mature attitude) or started very successful businesses. While the upper high school graduates did not fair so well. Including scraps with the law.

I have to admit it was satisfying. Which is also petty.

There is an alternative that combines the best of both worlds. What's amazing to see after reading all these posts is that nobody mentioned going to a college/university where Cooperative Education is a degree requirement.

I went to one with $500 cash and a National Defense Student Loan (am I dating myself??), spent the next five years alternating between being a full-time student or a full-time Co-op employee at a major utility, no summer vacations or winter breaks (we had the weekend off between assignments), graduated with a 4 year degree, 2 years of solid work experience, and was hired directly by my co-op employer. And by the way, I earned a competitive wage that enabled me to pay my own way through college with some extra spending cash, and without asking my parents for money which they didn't have anyway.

Everyone who went there had to get a co-op job, and the school managed to get everyone a position close to their major. I'll bet that there are very few co-op students in the "Millennials" that have huge debt service facing them upon graduation. Learn and earn through Co-operative Education is a much better alternative than mountains of debt upon graduation

Thank you for the post of your experience, RAMConsult.

Having been away from formal education for so long, I was not aware of this. It sounds like a wonderful idea to pursue. For those interested the Wiki article discusses it pretty thoroughly. (At least, AFAIK.) What is surprising is you would think the Dept. of Education would (should) be a clearinghouse for the idea. If you search "department of education" and the added terms, "cooperative" "degree" "programs" (and I tried it with both Google and Ask) you don't get a link in the first 4 pages that I saw, to the DOE. You get plenty of links to individual colleges and universities. I didn't follow them to see why they came up. If you go to the DOE web site and search "cooperative" you get over 1000 hits. The information may be there but it's a little like a needle in a haystack, if it is. My suspicion is it may not be there at all.

I'm left wondering why this isn't so well known. I'll bet there are few Millenials who have even gone the coop route -- they probably didn't know about it. The fact that most parents think of "saving" for their children's education is a testament to the obscurity of the idea. Education seems to be a competitive "business." I would expect the Dept. of Education to have a well structured overview of this, easily found at their web site. I didn't see it. Why not? Somebody must be getting something out of the standard route that they wouldn't with coop. It's the only reason I can think of for the lack of visibility -- unless it isn't an option at most colleges. I'll be off until next week, but I think I'll give them a call within the next week and ask them about it.

Department of social services should grant loans at low interest rates to countrymen for education,medical treatment,to start a business etc to keep people happy and reduce crime rate instead of enlarging armed forces,developing new weapons,attacking other communities,races,countries etc . Especially neglected minorities should be helped by UN.

For profit colleges prey on Low interest student loans

Hi Passerby,

Sorry I haven't read through the many responses, so maybe my comments are repeats of others.

One of the sorriest parts of my experience regards what I witnessed as my children went through school. For each, rather than university, all chose to attend colleges to gain their initial degrees.

For my daughter she chose to pursue two associate degrees, one in computer science, and another in paralegal studies. To summarize, she now works in a factory as a sewing. The reason is, the college curriculum and testing were not adequate to insure their students were indeed qualified for their fields of study. Her vocabulary is not adequate for paralegal work, and one must wonder when someone can't even operate the basics of Excel and Word exactly what level of computer education was offered. Should I as her father been more attentive? Possibly, however she as a young adult, and they as a bona fide college should have achieved more. The credentials she received are worth far less than the thousands of dollars they cost.

My oldest son, coming late to his decision to become an occupational therapist, did well in his work, and his college did a good job of preparing him for that field ... except for the fact that now he is delayed in getting his state certification because the college has not paid their appropriate fees to the State ... still waiting more than 6 months for them to rectify that problem.

But, it seems he chose wisely his career field. At his graduation, there were only about 40 students, but along side were hundreds of nursing students graduating ... no one apparently told them that CNA's are in very poor demand as most of the nursing opportunities are only for RN's. There are by now many of those nursing students realizing that there little demand for their degree.

On a similar note, one adult friend had decided to attend a local college to learn about "computers". She applied and was accepted, and received a student loan. No one bothered to pre-test her to see if she had the aptitude for such work, and with all due respect to my friend, it would be like accepting me into the school of neurobiology. She will be paying back her student loan for years to come, but the value of that education to her is near zero.

The value of education, it seems, has been reduced to how many butts the institute can get to fill how many chairs, and it has very little to do with delivering qualified individuals into society.

I am sure there are exceptions, but I haven't noticed any yet.

Kind regards ...

Thank you for sharing your experience, DCaD. I'm sorry for not responding sooner. The long weekend (I took the Friday before off, too) contributed to the delay. I usually leave my computer running with my browser all week long and I keep Tabs open for CR4 discussions I have posted in or started. I tend to turn the computer off on weekends -- especially long ones. Plus a couple of issues came up at work when I got back.

Your experience (and your children) echoes what SavvyExacta mentioned about "counseling." (And I had hoped for suggestions to the question of what to change from that experience.) There's something quite awry about the process. I guess that is why the idea of mandatory public service appeals to me. I see it as similar to health care. The more we, as individuals, actively take responsibility for ourselves, the more likely it is outcomes will improve. We don't have to become doctors, but most people are woefully lacking in basic principles as evidenced by the proliferation of fast food restaurants.

Mandatory public service could provide life experience that is needed to make better career choices. It also would develop independence. Currently, choices are made cafeteria style. Something looks appealing but may not be to our taste at all. But it's on our plate and we've taken a bite, so we can't return it. And an unfortunate truism is, we quite quickly become funneled into fewer future choices by the experience we gain in our first, second, and so on jobs. Changing careers becomes harder as we grow older and accumulate this "field-related" experience. We become experts in that field. I know. Having investigated changing a couple of times, my experience always offered more pay than an "entry level" pay that goes with working to gain experience in a field I have none in. Another truism is we tend to live up to our means and then require a certain level of pay to sustain it. Otherwise sacrifice becomes necessary. Most of us don't willingly do that.

Actually, I guess as long as I'm promoting self-reliance, mandatory shouldn't be necessary. But some public framework and expenditure probably would be. Then let parents and students decide if that is a beneficial choice. Delaying a choice of career and college training by a couple of years might make a huge difference in better outcomes. I think it would be worth a try. Planning the types of experiences available would, also, need some thought and tweaking as experienced is gained with such a system. As it is now, military service seems to be the primary alternate choice that students explore if they don't go to college and don't find a job. (Unless their parents tolerate living at home indefinitely.)

This makes me think of my parents again and their generation and an observation. I don't know how much weight was given to job "satisfaction" for that generation. From observing my parents and other parents of friends, it seems they were "happy" (thankful?) just to have a means to raise a family. I don't think they measured fulfillment in life by their work activity, so much. I guess it seems like common sense to us, their children, to want to "love" our work. But I think it is more of an entitlement that we adopted because they wanted so much for us to have a better life than they did. That gets me back to the idea of each generation being more "coddled" than the previous ones. I'm not advocating getting trapped in something you absolutely hate, but for most, work life often has boring and monotonous days, no matter the profession. And life, more often than not, throws us curves that we can't avoid and have to adapt to. (For instance, bad bosses can really mar the ideals we have about careers.)

Like so many things the system in place doesn't seem to change much. Unfortunately.

Since 1983, adjusted for inflation, the average college tuition has tripled.

Part of the problem here is that most people are operating from the wrong premise. That being, that we are still in the Industrial Age and the adage of "get a good education, get a job with a good company and you'll be set for life" doesn't work in the Age we are in. We are in the Information Age or Technology Age where the rules are different. What pays is knowledge. "From the waist down, we're all worth minimum wage. From the neck up is the true measure of our value." That has to do with what we know as well as the work ethic and attitude to support the knowledge.

Too many people equate education with some university or local college. There are technical aspects that will need to be learned in a formal setting but that is pretty much the only reason to attend a college. The best learning will take place; in a chair with a good book (Kindle) pertaining to one's field of interest, on the jobsite where you are learning from someone who is highly skilled already and still striving to improve (hands-on experience).

Most of the time kids, and they are mostly immature kids, go off to college without a clue as to what they want to do with their lives. It is simply expected of them to "go to college" when they graduate from HS. It would be better for them to get a job in the field that interests them for 1 - 3 years and then once they have determined that is what they want to do, then go to college. In the meantime they will have made some money so they don't have to borrow so much. It is also expected that daddy and mummy will pay for their kids' education. Why? If the kids have "skin in the game" and they know exactly what they want to do, they will get up in the morning for those early classes, they will study diligently. They will also have a couple of years of, at least age, maturity so they will be more prepared to be on their own.

Little more off topic, There is something my math professor said in one of his lectures that always stuck with me.

And I think it rings true today.

If you want to saparate your self, all you have to do, look/pick a technical field and study two hours a day, (after your out of college ). And within Two years you'll be an expert in that field.

I do believe that is true.

The last part of your post is a good endorsement for cooperative education, as mentioned by RAMConsult.

Having to be away from home and being in a "mentoring" situation, where "doing" occurs as opposed to reading/studying, both enhances the learning, and develops independence. It removes that safety net of "daddy and mummy" you refer to. It also allows us to realize that we are interdependent. Even the strongest individual, will at times in life, benefit from the support of others. But that interdependence is, now, defined from the strength of independence, whereby the threshold where it is needed is raised by that independence.

I would think summer camp would be a helping factor from this perspective. But it is probably too short of a time period. It is easier to endure and know that you can return to the safety of home. Public service after H.S., for a year or two, would be a different context. It would be dipping one's toes in the ocean of life, so to speak, before wading out to where one's feet no long touch the bottom. We can't fully define our individuality (which is limited by our exposure to parents as role models) until being separated from the confines of "home" and the shelter of security it represents and offers.

I think you are right, to a large degree, about information/knowledge being the currency of employment, in today's world. That is unfortunate, as occupations requiring physical skills truly suit some individuals better than those requiring, primarily, knowledge -- or as it used to be termed, "paper pushing." Computers have, to some degree, overlaid a layer of abstraction to how we define "life." Yet we live life at a very physical level. Or maybe we don't as much anymore. I guess that could be a whole other post/discussion.

Universities and colleges ought to be worrying plenty. Most kids go to college because their parents pushed them there. Now the next generation will remember how futile college was and won't push their kids into going. So rolls will drop.

Then we'll hear even more propaganda about the necessity of college educations. Some of it will be true (we always need some STEM professionals to design solutions) but most of it will be over-blown hype to keep academia employed.