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Location: Van Buren, Arkansas
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Will This Metal Grid Increase Risk of Lightning Strike?

06/05/2013 5:19 PM

I would like to know if a type of outdoor Event Flooring, designed with flat metal strips fastened to its bottom structure, attract lightning? These are molded plastic panels. We'r talking about 5 to 20 thousand sq ft. placed on geotec fabric, on the ground. The metal straps would end up creating a grid 20" x 20" under the panels, with 10,000 people standing on it.

Glen In Arkansas

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#1

Re: Will this metal grid increase risk of lightning strike?

06/05/2013 5:35 PM

Let me put it this way. You make a very good Faraday cage top side, that protects the ants walking under it. Seriously, shape and relative to near objects hight matters most, but I wouldn't step on such a construction positioned on high grounds on a rainy day. Period. S.M.

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#2

Re: Will this metal grid increase risk of lightning strike?

06/05/2013 5:54 PM

What material is the flooring?

If it isn't conductive, the people won't be grounded.

I'd worry more about the lighting and sound towers drawing a strike.

I'd also worry about putting 10,000 people in a 20,000 ft. Sq. area.

Where in Ark?

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#5
In reply to #2

Re: Will this metal grid increase risk of lightning strike?

06/05/2013 6:59 PM

The panels are molded using polypro (non-conductive).

Actually with seating it's 5,000 folks.

So do the metal strips under the panels increase ones chances of lightning strike vs. solid poly panels?

Glen, in the Van Buren, AR office

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#7
In reply to #5

Re: Will this metal grid increase risk of lightning strike?

06/05/2013 7:34 PM

Well, metal grid on the ground would be more conductive, so I'd have to go with nonmetallic, given a choice.

The liability exposure would be much less.

In your case, I'd go with ppro.

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#3

Re: Will this metal grid increase risk of lightning strike?

06/05/2013 6:11 PM

Forget about lightning, as Lyn stated, at best your going to have 10,000 people on 20,000 square feet, one person for every 2 square feet. At worst your going to have 10,000 people on 5,000 square feet, one person for every square 6 inches???? Is this some kind of sardine packing party??

Sounds like an invitation for disaster to me.

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#4
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Re: Will this metal grid increase risk of lightning strike?

06/05/2013 6:48 PM

Sounds like an invitation for disaster to me.

Or a dance party.

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#6
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Re: Will this metal grid increase risk of lightning strike?

06/05/2013 7:18 PM

Can you dance with 2 people for a square foot? Sounds kind of tight to me, what kind of dancing is it? Are close optional?

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#9
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Re: Will this metal grid increase risk of lightning strike?

06/05/2013 8:29 PM

Never been to a trance or underground German Techno party? They can really pack them in to those.

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#8

Re: Will this metal grid increase risk of lightning strike?

06/05/2013 7:36 PM

No matter how you build your floor you will not eliminate the chance of a lightning strike. Being on a metal non-grounded structure increases the danger and with people packed as densely as you described the chance of multiple injuries or fatalities from a single strike are also greatly increased. There are things you can do to lessen these chances. I suggest you read the following links:

https://www.wildmed.com/blog/lightning-strike-prevention-7-things-to-remember/

http://unitedmethodistinsurance.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/MPM-Tips-on-Preventing-Lightning-Strikes.pdf

There are many more pages if you google lightning safety at an outdoor event.

Good luck, be safe.......

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#10

Re: Will this metal grid increase risk of lightning strike?

06/05/2013 11:35 PM

Would a building 200' by 100' (20,000 sq ft) with a metal roof be more likely to be struck by lightning than the alternative?

There might be a need to put it into perspective. I've seen metal grandstands used at sporting events for years and I'm sure that you have all seen similar on your side of the world.

Due diligence "Risk assessment" needs to consider all identified concerns and then make appropriate decissions.

My opinion, the risk of lightning (as previously noted) to raised items like lighting towers would be significantly hight than the risk to a horizontal insulating surface over a metal grid (hopefully grounded). The risk of crowd based issues like crushing or heat dissipation for such a concentrated number is significant.

The item you have highlighted is admirable, but only one that needs to be in balance with the total scene.

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#11

Re: Will this metal grid increase risk of lightning strike?

06/06/2013 12:41 AM

When lightning strikes on the ground, this phenomenon is as follows:

The epicenter takes most of the energy to spread it in concentric circles until the energy is totally absorbed by the ground.

It is not in first instance the voltage that kills as well as the voltage differential between distances. (kVolts/Inch). Cows die in the field just because of these powerful waves - potential differences - When these cows could stand on one leg, nothing should happen (unless they are hit directly).

As far as the floor. When conductive your people on it will be pretty safe, because the voltage "circles" will be about non- existent.

The chance that strikes come to the platform are just a little bit higher, because the path to earth might be easier, or not - through the floor.

We work in a area, known for real strikes and the metal roofs on the buildings are NOT grounded.

I have seen a grounded one and all the screws and bolts came out and the grounding wires were "gone". While the non grounded types are left without damage.

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#12

Re: Will this metal grid increase risk of lightning strike?

06/06/2013 3:29 AM

There are planning regulations for this sort of thing, something the Local Authority in the UK will be keen to enforce if disregarded.

Have a chat with a Planning Officer before finalising the design.

It won't be much of an event if there's only 2-4sqft per person -

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#13

Re: Will This Metal Grid Increase Risk of Lightning Strike?

06/06/2013 5:11 PM

It is generally accepted that the tallest thing in a general area will be struck. What exactly is "tall" and what is "general area" are questions I don't have an answer for. But, I suspect that the people on the floor would tend to cancel out any small difference in strike danger caused by the metal in the plastic.

In general, if you ask a question like yours then a good response is that the people shouldn't be there in the danger zone. I know that is probably not a good answer for you but I'll include it anyway.

I am not an expert and I have no authority to give you solutions for this dangerous problem. But, you may wish to look into grounded towers or grounded wires over the people. The term "zone of protection" might be useful to Google. The space shuttle launch tower and other towers at KSC have 1/2" stainless steel wire running over the top of the towers and down to ground. This is to draw in the lightning strikes and protect both the rocket and any people or equipment on the tower. If you ever noticed the large diameter pipe on the shuttle tower that goes up above the tower then you have seen the support for this stainless steel cable. Remember, something like this improves chances but is not a safety guarantee.

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#14

Re: Will This Metal Grid Increase Risk of Lightning Strike?

06/06/2013 10:49 PM

Yes. But that is not what matter.

The tallest and spikiest structure (well grounded I expect) will draw the lightning, in all likelyhood.

When the lighning strikes, the real fun begins. When its current reaches the ground, it is spreading out. The center to much further out the momentary voltage difference can be in many million Volts. The "step voltage" difference between your two feet still can be enough to kill you many 10 meters out.

The paragraph is illustrative. Actual lightning data and statistical distributions are produced by Power Utilities. But we do not need them here for a qualitative discourse.

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#15

Re: Will This Metal Grid Increase Risk of Lightning Strike?

06/06/2013 11:12 PM

You may bond earthing leads of all services including lightning to it.

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#16

Re: Will This Metal Grid Increase Risk of Lightning Strike?

06/07/2013 2:55 PM

As others have indicated, it really depends on what else is arround. Lightning is most attracted to a point charge - as is found on a lightning rod. A bunch of pieces of metal on the ground (simplification of the flooring) are conductive, but are unlikely to create very much point charge. Nearby trees, power lines, or any other conducting and "pointy" structure will be much more likely to get hit.
Of course, in the midwest, there may very well be nothing else around other than open fields. In that case, it is very difficult to tell. I would not say it "attracts" lightning - lightning builds up from the static charge in the atmosphere. I like to picture it akin to rubbing a balloon on one's hair. When the charge builds up, it will discharge through *something* to ground. That something is the best conducting, highest point charge path. If the metal on the ground is the only conducting path around, maybe it would draw the strike. It sounds like it has a heavy insulator over the top (the flooring) - so I am thinking... No.

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#17

Re: Will This Metal Grid Increase Risk of Lightning Strike?

06/07/2013 3:16 PM

OMG! There's rebar in my foundation. Should I move????????

Seriously, I've wondered about houses made with steel beams instead of wood. Do they attract lightening more than the wood ones?

My tree was hit by lightening and cut in half. Was it caused by the rusty nail in the tree?

While living next to a large boulder, the boulder was struck by lightening and the electrical charge rolled down and hit my house and shorted out my appliances.

If odds are low for a person to be hit by lightening, do they increase for a group of 10,000 people sandwiched together on a stage? Could it be that they are wearing too much jewelry?

Would you think that the top flooring would protect the people on the stage? Like the bleacher theory, would it be "hit or miss"?

And, lastly, WHY would these people be outside in a lightening storm? (Unless they were lucky enough to get the first strike? Maybe they should all buy lottery tickets?)

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#18
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Re: Will This Metal Grid Increase Risk of Lightning Strike?

06/07/2013 6:04 PM

Rebar in the foundation: No significant impact.

Steel beams instead of wood: Possibly an increased chance, especially since steel beams are usually for tall buildings. Thus the use of grounding rods, etc. Again, depends on many factors.

The main factor for the trees is not anything metal, but rather that they are a tall structure full of water - which is a good conductor. They build up some charge density since they are not flat.

Boulder - I don't know. There are always a lot of conditions to consider. The size, shape, and any plant life growing on it all matter.

Groups of people vs. a single person- I do not think the odds increase, nor that jewelery makes a significant difference. Rather than increased odds, it would be the same odds, with 10,000 chances - one for each person.

Flooring- the plastic / insulative element would reduce the chances of strike, despite the metal beneath.

Why be outside in a storm? Because it's fun.

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#20
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Re: Will This Metal Grid Increase Risk of Lightning Strike?

06/07/2013 10:48 PM

I agree. The odds don't change with a larger number of people involved. It's akin to buying a million lottery tickets and still not winning. All it takes is the right one.

Meanwhile, dancing in the rain is fun. Golfing in the middle of the greens during a thunderstorm is risky. We can test it with a bet. But who will volunteer to stand on the golf course???

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#21
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Re: Will This Metal Grid Increase Risk of Lightning Strike?

06/07/2013 11:40 PM

Not I.

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#19

Re: Will This Metal Grid Increase Risk of Lightning Strike?

06/07/2013 6:33 PM

Since you probably have to have $2,000,000.00 USD in liability insurance, you might want to talk to your insurance underwriter.

I'm from Hot Springs.

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