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Copper Plating of Knife Blade with No Electricity

06/30/2013 12:51 PM

I recently cleaned the post of my golf cart batteries with baking soda and a toothbrush, and after a thorough rinsing, applied a paste of baking soda/water to the posts and let them sit overnight.The next day, I rinsed again,and scraped the remaining green copper-laden crud from the terminals.The knife blade was Stainless, but a magnetic stainless,I do not know which grade.A copper plating appeared on the blade that would not wash off.Like it had been electroplated.It came off with persistent sanding,but it had pitted the blade a small amount.I thought the baking soda would have neutralized all of the acid after a 24 hour soak, but apparently there was a little acid left.

So my question is,how did the copper "electroplate" to the stainless without current flow, if indeed this is what happened.If not, what did happen?

This is probably a simple question for a chemist,but that is not my bailiwick.

Thanks in advance to all who render help on this.

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#1

Re: copper plating of knife blade with no electricity

06/30/2013 1:01 PM

You must have removed the chromium and/or nickel plate, and revealed the copper coating underneath...

http://www.verneschromeplating.com/chrome-plating.html

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#2
In reply to #1

Re: copper plating of knife blade with no electricity

06/30/2013 1:15 PM

The blade was not chrome plated.It is solid stainless steel.The copper came off after working it on a stone.No copper plating on this blade, or it would have revealed itself in prior sharpening.

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#3
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Re: copper plating of knife blade with no electricity

06/30/2013 3:33 PM

Then it was probably just stained from the chemicals....some sort of reaction....

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#4

Re: copper plating of knife blade with no electricity

06/30/2013 5:12 PM

You have a cathode and copper ions available to migrate onto the knife blade.

Or, is it an anode?

Don't remember.

It's chemistry 101.

It's galvanic something or other.

Can you duplicate it consistently? May have a new plating process here.

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#5

Re: Copper Plating of Knife Blade with No Electricity

06/30/2013 9:09 PM

The post is led. the blade is stainless. Wet crud is a salty electrolyte.

As soon as the blade metal touches the post in the crud: Instantaneous classical electrodeposition.

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#6

Re: Copper Plating of Knife Blade with No Electricity

06/30/2013 9:56 PM

Need to know if the post clamps on your batteries are made of lead or copper (bronze)

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#7
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Re: Copper Plating of Knife Blade with No Electricity

06/30/2013 10:03 PM

The post clamps are stainless steel studs with ss nuts.The cable terminals are copper.

These are golf cart batteries, and have bolts instead of clamps like automotive batteries have.

The battery posts,as normal,are lead.

The cables were removed,both ends,while cleaning.

No contact with battery when cleaning.

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#8

Re: Copper Plating of Knife Blade with No Electricity

06/30/2013 11:37 PM

You've made an assumption and stated it as fact, but your later remarks don't match, so i have a question and hypothesis for you.

Lead (Pb) terminals and SS cable terminations but you describe initially "copper-laden crud" on the terminals. where did that come from? Is it really copper? Is the cable end exposed allowing copper corrosion on the batteries? (probably)

Whatever it is, the residue has reacted with the knife blade and as previously stated there has been a galvanic depositionof copper and some other metalic portion has migrated from your knife blade alloy into the crud layer.

The reaction is "chemical" in nature (yes at microscopic level it is electrical interaction) and quite normal. Such action can also cause localised pitting (not acid etch) especially where larger grains of such materials are concentrated. you may have neutralised the acids, but still had a reactive salt solution present. During the scraping process, you also had lead, SS, your knife blade, the blade sheath/springs/rivets etc all potentially involved in a damp environment. Galvanic transfer!

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#11
In reply to #8

Re: Copper Plating of Knife Blade with No Electricity

07/01/2013 12:14 AM

Allow me to elaborate:

The batteries have lead posts that have screw terminals, consisting of an imbedded ss threaded stud,and a ss nut.The cables, 750 MCM, are copper,with copper ring terminals factory crimped onto the copper wire.The ring terminals once had a tin plating, but it has been eaten away by the acid.The green crud,("copper laden",by my own description,because copper usually corrodes to a greenish color). The copper evidently is from corrosion of the copper terminal and wire.

If you have never seen the batteries on a golf cart it is hard to visualize what I am talking about,they are a deep cycle battery, similar to a marine battery.

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#9

Re: Copper Plating of Knife Blade with No Electricity

07/01/2013 12:04 AM

Copper dissolved in battery acid will go out of solution and plate onto steel.

When I go to nickel plate a steel object, say, a pistol frame, I dissolve as many copper filings into some battery acid as I can get to dissolve. This is normally an overnight job.

Strain it through a paper filter come the morning, and I have a plating solution. All I do then is to dip the sear, hammer or whatever into the solution, leave it for a minute or two, and remove it to a solution of baking soda and water to neutralize the acid. A few minutes on a buffing wheel to put a high polish on it, and then into the electrocleaner for ten seconds, then into the nickel bath for a minute at eight volts. The nickel plates very nicely onto the copper, but not at all on the steel.

What you got accidently was an equivalent copper-acid plating solution like I use every day.

I like the acid method because cyanide is no longer allowed around here, and although cyanide is better, the acid works just fine, but more slowly. And it is safer to have around the shop. It can be persistent though...you have to really clean it off. I clean it off with a blast of hydrogen in the electro cleaning tank. Once I started doing that, the rust problems vanished.

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#10
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Re: Copper Plating of Knife Blade with No Electricity

07/01/2013 12:07 AM

THANKS! Just what I needed.

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#21
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Re: Copper Plating of Knife Blade with No Electricity

07/03/2013 9:34 AM

I didn't deserve that Good Answer....even though I work with this stuff every day, it could be alchemy as far as I know. There is some sort of galvanic thing going on within its own solution is all I know.

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#12

Re: Copper Plating of Knife Blade with No Electricity

07/01/2013 7:33 AM

I remember doing an experiment a long time ago in chemistry. Put a nail in a copper salt solution (copper sulphate or chloride). The iron dissolves and the copper plates out as iron ions replace the copper ions in the solution.

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#13

Re: Copper Plating of Knife Blade with No Electricity

07/01/2013 9:14 AM

#1: you mention pitting on your ferromagnetic steel blade

#2: you mention copper deposits

Here is the answer: Electrolyte is present, copper salts are present, moisture is present, ferromagnetic steel is always anodic with respect to copper metal, therefore, some of the steel leaves as ferrous ion, whilst copper is deposted on larger cathodic areas of the steel. This kind of steel generally corroded at mild pH with localized anodes and larger cathodic areas. Thus you could easily see large areas of the blade where copper deposited.

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#14

Re: Copper Plating of Knife Blade with No Electricity

07/01/2013 4:26 PM

I'm still trying to figure out how you were able to attain guru status but good for you

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#15
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Re: Copper Plating of Knife Blade with No Electricity

07/01/2013 4:32 PM

All it takes is perseverance.

As should be obvious, it takes no special intelligence to attain the exalted status of Guru.

After all, I are one!

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#16
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Re: Copper Plating of Knife Blade with No Electricity

07/01/2013 4:38 PM

I admit it was a wisecrack remark.....I actually have no idea what the parameters are to gain the status nor do I care

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#17
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Re: Copper Plating of Knife Blade with No Electricity

07/01/2013 4:40 PM

Guru is simply anybody who has posted 500 times, or more.

What you didn't read the FAQ's? No? That puts you in the supermajority.

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#18
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Re: Copper Plating of Knife Blade with No Electricity

07/01/2013 5:29 PM

of course I didn't. my VCR HAS BEEN FLASHING "1200, 1200" SINCE 1980 I'm lazy

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#19
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Re: Copper Plating of Knife Blade with No Electricity

07/01/2013 5:43 PM

"I'm Lazy" Your tag line says otherwise.
So, that means that the vacuum fluorescent display in your VCR has flashed an incredible 1,040,688,000 times, so far.

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#20
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Re: Copper Plating of Knife Blade with No Electricity

07/01/2013 5:53 PM

Don't believe that the tag line or avatar has anything to do with reality.He is probably morbidly obese,hasn't seen his feet in years,uses a rock on his belly to crack oysters like a muskrat,and he is lamenting with regret what he should have done.

As for me, I really am a duck,and I really do need more coffee!

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