5 Ton Split AC Gas/Electric

Swamp cooler(s) perhaps? Either that or just a standard modern AC unit.

You're a little dry there compared to Florida, do you have a humidifier? ...and if you don't, do you have a problem with static build up, you know, shocking encounters...? Did the 5 ton you had cool the place to everyone's satisfaction?

http://www.carrier.com/homecomfort/en/us/products/indoor-air-quality/humidifiers/

http://www.commercial.carrier.com/commercial/hvac/carrier/0,,CLI1_DIV12_ETI12700,00.html

http://www.residential.carrier.com/products/furnaces/gas/comparison.shtml

No humidifier here. We don't seem to have any static buildup in the building.

The 5 (or whatever it was) ton unit cooled just fine. This building isn't that big and we have 3 three 5 ton units cooling various portions of the building.

Oh and did I say it is adobe construction? Flat roof with white foam over foam board insulation, new last year. 4200 square feet.

Your title say's split gas/electric, so I'm confused if this is a split condensing unit, remote to the evaporator coil/air handler, that is part of a furnace. Is the outside unit installed on the roof, or on the ground?

Goodman, stay as far as possible from this, check out youtube for many videos of HVAC hacks, there are so many that find goodman and others with repair problems. Trane is another of questionable quality. Leaks being the number one complaint, too thin of copper tubing, as new R410a being higher pressures.

Curious why you have to fix this on a leased space.

So, there's a round thingy, with a fan on top, outside on the ground.

It has an electrical disconnect. There are Freon lines running from the round thingy to a big square thingy inside the building. There are also natural gas lines running to the big box inside, there the air gets blown around in the building.

AC is not my field. Very little is my field, actually.

We pay $1.00 USD per year for the building.

Thanks for the input.

A local contractor will probably know what combination works best for your installation requirements....As a 'for instance' though, I would go with the Performance condenser unit, paired with an Infinity furnace....(both listed at the links I posted) This system would use Puron refrigerant and have variable speed fan motors....The other options might be to suit the area and/or mounting requirements, I would be concerned about the humidity level.....If I might ask, what do your humidity levels run....Like to see them above 35% as a minimum....

* Unless the evaporator is rated for R410, you'll have to replace it too. And if the furnace (gas?) is 26 years old, you might as well replace it also.

* Go with an established local firm with a good reputation. Brand is secondary, installation and service is primary.

* Install a 13 or so SEER without fancy controls unless you know the service rep can install and maintain it properly.

* I had the compressor in my 5 ton Carrier replaced in 2007 at age 11. Replaced original Milennium scroll with Copeland, cost $1,600, probably paid too much. It's still going at 17 years total.

* I replaced the A coil at age 14. Original 'CarrierCAC/BDP' copper coil was visibly leaking. Replaced with Goodman dual-rated (R22/410) aluminum coil. It's on its third summer with no problem. I also installed an expansion valve TXV instead of the throttling device. I think most of the newer units use a TXV as standard, if not, I would have it. I'm still using R-22, but was preparing for a possible condenser change-out, necessitating R410. (I'm still not sure whether copper or aluminum is better. If you want some interesting reading, Google 'formicary corrosion'.)

* I was going to quarrel with ignator re: Goodman but I see there may be reason to stay away from their evaporators, for now at least. Other than that, HVAC is about as cut-throat as it gets and everybody bad-mouths everybody else. I think installation and service from somebody reputable and that will be around a while is most important.

I would say if you get bids get them in detail including the actual costs for each and every item otherwise you will get screwed big time by the heating and cooling weasels.

BTW a split AC system is considered in the same category as a common window AC unit and it can be legally installed by anyone so beware of an outrageous installing fee if you have the hating and cooling weasels do it for you.

I know some people that got charged around $5000 for installing a new split AC unit in their house. They were told they were getting a below cost deal on the instal too. 5 minutes online and I found their exact same unit with a better warranty than they got could be bought and installed by anyone for just over $1200.

Really $3800 in labor to do a install that took to guys less than 4 hours start to finish including taking the old AC system out? They could have flown me first class round trip on a same day purchase ticket with my tools to their place and back and had me install the system plus truck freight their old units parts to my home for disposal and still came out at least $2000 ahead.

What piece of junk are you going to buy for $1200 ???....The dealers price is more than that for just the condenser, and furnace and coil is probably that and half again as much more....Not everybody lives out in the wilderness where they can do as they please, there's codes and laws to be followed in the civilized area's.....How are you going to reclaim the refrigerant??

I agree. In So Cal, you cannot buy freon, unless you're a licensed for ac repair/installation. If an average Joe gets caught with a tank of freon, he will be fined.

Also, a condenser is going to run upwards of $1,200, depending on the SEER rating. The furnace/air handler, TXV and A coil are going to be another $2,000 or so for a good 95% AFUE unit.

We installed a 5 ton split system last year and the parts aren't cheap (at least good quality parts).

I deal in commercial surplus from time to time and every place I get my stuff is open to the public to get the same items as well.

For me finding AC systems in not hard. Neither is getting Freon as well. I picked up a brand new 5 ton coil for a split system and installed it in a friends store some years ago. The online cost was $350 and it was a major name brand unit. His local AC weisel quoted him $1500 for the exact same unit if that give you some idea of how this works.

Now relating to the regulations I suggest doing a in depth read of the EPA website relating to air conditioning. It's loaded with very obvious loopholes and exemptions that allow most anyone to do as they please if you know the rules which BTW most have not been updated since the early to mid 1990's.

I am not even going to bother with links being all of this is easy find stuff and info.

Oh really....show me the loophole that allows you to not recover the freon and dispose of the equipment....You can do this cheaply because you have no overhead, no business expenses, no license fee's, no taxes, no workman's comp, no insurance, no advertising costs....the list goes on....what happens if the coil starts developing leaks every time you turn around? ....will you buy another one?....will you just keep fixing it for free??....What happens if the guy gets mad and calls a real company, and the mechanic says you ruined the whole system through contamination, and now owe this guy a whole new system???...

http://www.epa.gov/ozone/title6/608/608fact.html

I am not in the HVAC business, but I have an idea of the costs of doing business. Also, I do know that a system can be contaminated and can cause damage to other parts of the system - don't ask me how I know!

Since this is going into a commercial application, permits will need to be pulled and I can't see going with a non-licensed contractor. There is too much risk.

Wound a bit tight over this aren't you?

This is North Dakota not California and our state rules and regulations are apparently different plus no one really gives a rats butt about what california says anyway. As far as we are concerned they are all of bunch of whining village idiots and their states actions have well proven it to be true!

Scrapping AC systems here is like scraping anything else in my state. you cut, crush, torch, and then haul the sorted bits to the salvage yard. No big deal here infact a buddy of mine owns one of the largest scrap yards in our state and scraps out hundreds of AC systems of all shapes and sizes every year and never once has he ever been hassled by anyone over it or where whatever leaks/goes boiling out of anything while he is doing it.

BTW as far as freon recovery goes you are allowed have up to 10% leakage per year in your containment vessel. So as far as yo are concerned I use an old railroad tanker for a storage vessel which means by the numbers I can have up to 20 tons of contaminated freon leak/vent off every year and still be in compliance. Thats how just one of the loopholes work.

BTW you don't need to get pissy with me over your regulations and what if scenarios or about how why and where you have to waste your money because of them. They are not mine.

For all I care you can spend all your lifes worth on your system. That's not my problem it's yours. I know where and how to get what I need and make my way through the legalities of our system easily enough to not need to concern myself with any of your perceived worries.

We may be backwoods to you but at least we can still fix our own stuff without wasting money to pay some over priced idiot with a piece of official paper to do it for us at 10 times the actual cost of materials!

BTW if you want your own 30# cylinder of R22 you can go buy one yourself on eBay for around $350. (I got all of mine when they were less than $120 each) No hassles no worries and UPS or Fedex will bring it right to your door in a week or so. Same with a split unit AC system of your choice of size and brand as well. No fuss no paper work. Or If you don't like Ebay there are a number of other online stores you can buy any of those items from as well without question and if you really know how to do searches you can probably find everything cheaper too!

FWIW here is a York 5 tone single phase powered split system with everything included for $1635 plus truck freight from Minneapolis MN. Personally of I was Lyn I would go with this system and find a buddy who knows a bit about AC system to help him install it himself. Odds are for less than $2000 a case of beer and a bit of cash he could have his whole AC system issue resolved himself.

York 5 ton AC system w/ lines and A coil. Ebay $1635. Sells to anyone ships anywhere.

I'm just saying......

CR4 Admin: Adjusted picture size

YORK!!!! Hahahahahahhaa ....and the freon handling rules are federal laws, federally enforced by the EPA......You can buy drugs on line too, that doesn't mean it's legal...Now you've admitted to breaking the law several times and implicated your recycler buddy as well....keep digging....

http://www.epa.gov/ozone/enforce/

So which brand would you prefer? I know of a number of York systems that have been in service for years that have never given any issues to their owners.

Would you prefer a Trane?

Ebay. Trane 5 ton AC compressor/condenser unit. $750

and a A coil to go with it. Trane 5 ton A coil. $238

Toss in another $200 and you have a full Trane 5 ton system for less than $1300 plus shipping.

Perhaps you would prefer an Amana heat pump system?

Amana 5 ton heat pump system w/20 KW electric heater. $2689 and more than 10 available.

Maybe a Carrier 5 ton self contained commercial rooftop system?

Carrier 5 ton Commercial Rooftop unit. $1896

The point I am trying to make is that no matter what brand or model you want the odds are you I or anyone else can find it online for far cheaper that any heating and cooling company would sell you one for. Plus it is legal to install most AC systems yourself contrary to what the heating and cooling crooks would tell you. Same with getting refrigerants and any other parts to maintain a AC system of any size.

Now relating to buying refrigerants I see your link lists a number of them as being restricted by the EPA and illegal to vent yet I can walk into any local or nationwide chain store and buy many of them right off the shelf. For instance R-134a is on their list of illegal to vent refrigerants yet it's sold at every auto parts store, Walmart, Kmart, any home building supply or hardware store off the shelf to anyone nationwide. Also it's commonly used as the propellant for many spray products and is the primary ingredient in many brands of canned air.

Gas duster ingredients. 1,1,1,2-Tetrafluoroethane

R-134a refrigerant. 1,1,1,2-Tetrafluoroethane

From your link.

"Is it legal to intentionally release refrigerants that are not captured under the sales restriction?

It is illegal to intentionally release any refrigerant during the maintenance, service, repair or disposal of refrigeration and air-conditioning equipment, unless EPA determines that such a release does not pose a threat to the environment. It is illegal to intentionally vent all CFC, HCFC, and HFC refrigerants including, but not limited to, R-12, R-22, R-134a, R-404A, and R-410A."

Found here. EPA Refrigerant Sales Restrictions. Section - Is it legal to intentionally release refrigerants that are not captured under the sales restriction?

So how does that work? They say its not illegal to buy it but it's illegal to vent it but yet its used in many applications where venting it is its sole purpose? If I call it R-134a it's illegal to vent but if I call it 1,1,1,2-Tetrafluoroethane it's now a safe inert gas I can do as I please with?

Going on with implicating people well I guess I have implicated every private and public scrapper, salvage yard, and auto wrecking yard in the country and then some.

Believe me as someone who has spent way too much time in the scrap yards I can assure you that unless an EPA agent is standing right there the vast majority of AC systems tend to get processed by the good old fashioned snip POP, FIZZ, GURGLE, Next! method.

TCM, I like reading your posts and you have given some great tips. I do have to side with Solar Eagle on this one for a few reasons.

1. I have a feeling the laws in AZ are closer to CA than ND and in CA, the regulators are very strict regarding freon and the fines are pretty steep.

2. The installation is for a commercial building. There are a lot of regulations and since the office is leased, the owner will be involved in the approval.

3. The building is owned by the city. There is no way anything can be done by a non-licensed HVAC company.

I think the best thing we can do is give the poster advice on which systems will be the best to use (reliability, longevity, efficiency, cost, etc).

The poster will need to deal with all the other "stuff" regarding finding a contractor, pulling permits, getting approvals, etc.

This whole exercise is a total cluster f..k.

But, it all pays the same, and I'm home, where it's cool.

I am just trying to inform whomever reads this thread that the heating and Ac service industry is one to be watched very close. Never trust what they say to be true and watch what their all powerful EPA bible says as well. Too much of it makes no sense or outright contradicts itself and it's all at your expense.

For whatever reason I can't find the links to the actual details of what the rules say about who things are to be handled and what is allowed. That's some scary stuff ( makes you think the whole EPA is based on nothing but misdirection smoke and mirrors) when you see the obvious loopholes they have in place!

But then again those loopholes are why I don't really have any concerns about doing AC work myself including buying supposedly illegal refrigerants parts and systems online from companies who apparently also have read the same rules and regulations I have which is why they are not too worried about getting busted for selling to the unlicensed public like me.

When we put in our 5 ton system in our rental house, I checked prices and the cheap priced equipment came from Goodman. I did more research, talked to people in the industry and I was told to keep away from Goodman.

What we wound up doing was purchasing a used system from a previous homeowner who removed the system just before his foreclosure. Air handler and condenser were only two years old, but somehow he was missing the A-coil. I gave him $500 for both parts and he threw in a nice table saw. I bought an A-Coil from someone who was in the industry, but had it as a left over piece ($150). Cabinet had a couple dents, but coil was good and he guaranteed it to not leak. I bought a TXV and some soft copper rolls and I installed the unit. I did hire an AC guy to vacuum the system, fill it and make sure everything was okay.

A week after install, the unit stopped cooling. I checked the freon level and it was good. The problem was the compressor. I believe that there was contamination in the lines or the parts. It froze up and I had to buy another one, but luckily my AC guy had a spare one and he installed it for a couple hundred dollars.

My tenants are very happy with the unit. It's for a 1,700 sq ft one story home with 17' vaulted ceilings. The old unit was a 2 ton and when we bought the house, the copper lines, A-Coil and furnace/air handler were gone). The old condenser looked like it was 25+ years old, so I figured it was time for a new system and a nice upgrade. Total cost a little under $1,500 and I also got $100 for the old condenser.

You realize the Trane quoted for $750 is just the compressor, and it's an older model....

Here's a 5 ton unit with all the components.....$2524 + $200 shipping $2724 + tax...one of the cheapest models you can find....now you have to install it...another $300 in materials, puts you in at around $3k...You could easily go to around $5k with a good quality higher end unit....that's if nothing goes wrong....

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Goodman-95-115K-BTU-Gas-Furnace-5-Ton-14-SEER-AC-/330894368832

Go with a high SEER rated unit. The higher the SEER, the more efficient the unit. Also, keep away from Goodman and Carrier. I like Rheem, Trane and Ruud. The old Carrier was good, but not anymore www.furnacecompare.com/ac_ratings.html I think all higher efficiency units use a TXV instead of a piston (more precise). Finally, you need to change the entire unit, both inside and out. If you don't, the old system parts will not work well with the new, due to differences in efficiency. These systems need to be balanced to work properly.

Good luck and let us know what you decide.

I hate invisible questionmarks. Was there a question?

The intelligent MEMBERS (you, being neither) saw the question.

For guts sake, you could have put a question mark for the nice people to see whether intelligent or not. Where are your manners?

Intelligent people could have picked my post as a joke. Rumble on man, rumble on.

Put off topic as I have nothing intelligent to add to the "question" ^{(havent found it yet!)}

Lyn,

Early on when the HVAC industry was migrating from R22 to R410A most manufacturers were using the R22 units without allowing for the much higher head pressures required/generated by R410A and they did not upgrade the refrigerant tubing, TX, control valve, pressure sensors, condenser, evaporator, etc.

This resulted in every HVAC manufacturer having an unreasonably high amount of equipment failures due to ruptures/explosions with some slow learners holding a higher rate of failure for a lnger period of time due to their refusal to upgrade their equipment.

We have a very large quantity of HVAC equipment from almost every HVAC manufacturer in the market and of every configuration from processing to office to industrial environment.

Our best performers for dollar invested are: Goodman-Amana, Carrier, Goettl, Lennox, & Fredrich.

Know that there are basically 5 separate major HVAC manufacturers in the US operating with more than one subsidiary (offbrand but identical) under/with different names.

If money is not a consideration TRANE is still at the top for performance but only by a very narrow margin and their cost for maintenance is high.

Have you encountered the problem with Goodman evaporators that this guy has? Also, what about copper vs aluminum? One thing I don't like about the copper evaporator is the use of galvanized steel supports in contact with the copper coil in a wet environment.

Yes I have seen this but not as much recently so I think that while they are not publically accepting responsibility for their oversite, they are changing their equipment design.

Not only have I observed this type of failure in the HVAC evaps and condensers but we are also seeing severe metal fatigue, porosity, anomolies, and catastrophic failures with more than 60% of the cast iron, cast steel, forged steel, and pretty much every metal component made in China that we are receiving regardless of manufacturer name. (Scary)

I am wondering if Goodman is getting some if not most of their components from China? If so, you would think that they would get control of the QC.

Unfortunately, because this is a city owned building, and the cost of the unit will be over $5K the bean counters and administrators (who don't know squat about any of this) are now involved. Our own people cow tow to them and are afraid to make a decision. I was not involved in the lease negotiations.

So a decision that I would have made yesterday probably won't be made for another week.

I'll be working from home afternoons until somebody tells me what to do.

Guys,

The city is going to spring for the AC unit, so, I no longer care what it is.

The whole exercise has been excruciating.

Even better! Unless of course you are a taxpayer in the city.

Does anyone know you rent the building for a $1 yet they are going to put a multi thousand dollar AC system in it at what I assume will ultimately be the taxpayers expense?

Interestingly, the lease agreement specifically states that we are responsible for all repair and maintenance of the building.

I'll let you know what brand we end up with. Install is Friday.

This may be considered an upgrade vs repair. I know all the commercial leases we signed, we were responsible for the maintenance of the AC unit. Luckily the most they needed was minor service.

Carrier. But, it's free.

Cheers