Non-Water Based Engine Coolant for Rustproof

Then increasing horsepower and noise regulations killed it.

they did sound like lawnmowers

Try this!

http://www.evanscooling.com/

Just what I was looking for.....tnks for da link! Anybody use this stuff?

I have certainly seen ads for the Evans Coolant in the antique vehicle hobby, but have never used it.

How about some N2 with your waterle$$ coolant?

If I bought a new vehicle, I MIGHT consider waterless, if I were going to keep it forever.

Not sure I like the operating temp. increase, but I guess that's optional.

How much does it cost?

Water is really cheap, still.

(superscript button is busted)

Many industrial and commercial engines just use hydraulic oil for their coolant. It works well and never rusts plus with engines running large hydraulic system loads it simplify the whole cooling system design ans well. one radiator does it all.

That's a good point. Why not use ATF to cool the motor?

I haven't looked at the thermal transmission rates because it is not practical for me.

What does Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms have to do with engine cooling?

Google ethylene glycol.

If some hapless AP came along and suggested that we use straight blend of propylene and ethylene glycol as a coolant, installed 215º thermostats, never changed the stuff, and oh yeah it's only $47.95 a gallon, we'd be all over him like a cheap suit.

The Evans website wants you to do that and more, and the MSDS tells you its composition plus "a proprietary corrosion inhibitor package". I'm no automotive engineer, and I'm sure better minds than mine have evaluated this product, but somehow i don't think the warranty folks would pay off on this one. I'm just sayin'

Propylene glycol has a viscosity that is 52 times that of water.

Ethylene glycol is 18 times that of water.

Not knowing what the ratios of this product are, one can only speculate.

The higher shear forces/power loss acting on the pump impeller are not mentioned in the literature.

I don't see $250.00 USD of value here. (assuming a 4 gal capacity)

It does seem pricey, but some return for research is understandable....So let's speculate on formula, I would guess 85% Ethylene glycol and 15% Propylene glycol, with a squirt of wd-40...ha......Well if you had an engine that was engineered to run at a higher temperature, say a diesel, this might be a good thing....I too am apprehensive at increasing my engines operating temperature....I know it probably has an ideal operating temp, or probably a range, and does indeed run better and more efficiently at temp, but am not sure that increasing the temp would be a good thing....but to tell you the truth I don't know what the limit before harm was done would be....but I would think that harm would occur beyond the boiling point of the lubricating oil, for instance....but what about synthetic oil, I do use a synthetic blend....I think you should go pure synthetic with this coolant blend just to be safe, but I haven't seen this recommended anywhere....

Wouldn't the viscosity decrease as the temperature went up? I would think at operating temperature this mixture would be the same as water, or close.....

http://www.widman.biz/English/Calculators/Graph.html

When used in food equipment cooling condensers and for process cooling, (Ice machines, beverage equipment, block ice making, etc.) it is like other anti freeze - 50% - 50%.

You can tell in the cooling equipment when to sweeten it up because you start getting slush instead of liquid.

In condenser coolers, when they start messing with the valves and thin it out, the cooling coil freezes and bursts. The tech gets the fun of telling the owner the cost of a new coil and usually gets called a few choice words.

Most "maintenance free" systems aren't. -- JHF

According to the Jay Leno's Garage interview (found at the link in post #2), the Evans Waterless Coolant is non-toxic - drinkable, supposedly - so I'm guessing that this is NOT the formula of the product described there. They are showing three one-gallon bottles, each with a different label, so apparently there are multiple formulas involved.

Ahem, it's air passing through the engine area that is the actual coolant. The liquid circulating through engines that have liquid circulation systems is there simply to present the engine heat to a larger heat transfer surface to enable the passing air to do its stuff; it is merely a heat transfer fluid.

Duly noted....Ψ

...If this coolant significantly raises the operating temp. of our beloved vehicle engines it's not really much of a coolant then is it?

I think the key marketing point was "raises the cooling systems Boiling point to 3xx degrees". This is Waaay different from operating temps.

I could not get an MSDS directly from Evans.

I did find a reference in auto forum where a poster emailed Evans for,and recieved, the MSDS for their product.IIRC the propylene glycol % was around 60-65% with ethylene glycol making up the resr (plus some additives I would guess to be perfumes & colorants).

*** After further review the EG content is listed as 69%.Not the PG content.***

The other main benefit is that removing the H2O removes a level of corrosion activity @ the engine interiors.Prolly good for seasonal equipment.

Prepping can be a pain perhaps.Repairing any leaks,removing-dehydrating the entire cooling/heating system ( I have visions of leaving a wet/dry vac attached to a radiator hose over the weekend.Sucking out any coolant hiding in the nether regions of the system & then forcing warm air throughout same.)

I wonder if that magical,powder in solution,radiator leak stop juice is compatible?

Till next time

Jay

OK, I managed to snip some data from the MSDS (please advise if the entire 4pg .doc file is postable on these forums).

With a 235deg flashpoint,does this mean that should an atomized spray be directed upon an exhaust manifold (via a failure of previously noted wonder 'stop leak' liquid additive or, a pinhole),an inferno will result?

Now I'm scared (not of the food qualities of PG mind you).

An atomized spray is not likely to occur, remember the coolant system is close to atmospheric pressure....that is one of the selling points, less stress on the hoses and radiator....the flash point for both the oil and fuel is probably less....

I have not needed to flush an engine or radiator since the 60's, if owner ran a proper mix of glycol or other quality coolant with correct ratio of water there is no corrosion or scale build up. Most of these systems can run a lifetime without change of coolant but 5 years seems a standard cycle. Diesels should maintain the proper PH in order to prevent the cavatation damage of the cylinder water jacket or liner. Water does have the advantage of transfereing more heat than a coolant mix but has the problem of boiling at a lower temp of course the radiator must be capable of transfering that heat to the atmosphere.

In the old days when water was the choice I found engines completly full of sludge as well as the bottom of the radiator. This is not the case with properly maintained modern vehicles. I see some have found the waterless coolants and provided the links so I will not go into this again. Deutz Diesels that I worked on were oil cooled internally and air cooled external and had a good reputation. I personally have not come across a oil cooled engine but no doubt they exist.

Any pre-1999 Porsche 911 engine is oil cooled.

Many mistakenly say it is air cooled, but they actually use about 12 quarts of oil and a forward mounted oil-radiator as the bleed off mechanism.

From 1999 on Porsche used both oil and a water based coolant systems to reduce engine noise and improve cylinder head cooling as horsepower increased and noise regulations tightened up.

Agreed, air cooling will not handle high temp as well as liquid heat transfer. During WW II up to 20% of sorties with bombers were aborted due to over heating upon takeoff on air cooled engine bombers. I read once that 40% of fuel used in an air cooled lawn mower is used to cool the engine. Maybe this has been improved as I write. Air cooled Motorcycles make my nose burn if I get too close when they are operating.

Please see: http://www.dow.com/heattrans/products/synthetic/dowtherm.htm

This looks very similar to the other stuff......wonder what they sell it for?...$

http://www.dow.com/heattrans/products/glycols.htm

I can't help wonder why they have so many different heat transfer fluids. The glycol based ones are chemically quite different from the aryl esters, alkanes and ethers. Would be a bit less confusing if they weren't all called Dowtherm XX.

Modern cars use a coolant derived from GM's Dex-Cool. Some of the manufacturers claim 100 - 150 Kmi between coolant change. Add to this that new cars use aluminum core radiators, you simply don't see as many coolant problems as in the past.

A couple things to know about Dex-Cool.

1. If air gets in the system, it wreaks havoc on aluminum parts, so it's important to keep the system full and to bleed off the air.

2. Dex-Cool creeps and you will get signs of leakage after some time. This is the crusty coolant tinted stuff near the radiator hose clamps.

3. Each manufacturer has a different version of Dex-Cool. Toyota is pink, Nissan is blue, etc. You are not suppose to mix them and you can only use the "factory" type coolant - don't mix the different types.

4. I've seen over 200 Kmi on a Toyota with factory installed coolant. Something I wouldn't recommend, but I've seen it and the car has no leaking/overheating problems.

I have been using 100% mineral oil in my race cars and my street cars for about 4 years now no problems and no corrosion and no degradation in aluminum parts like anti freeze mixtures do. And no other issues to date that I am aware of. Duke

Have you compared operating temperatures....There has been some research done on increasing the thermal conductive properties of mineral oil by adding hexagonal boron nitride nano-particles.....(link ↓)

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2012/02/rice-20120202.html

Interesting! I had not seen that.

I don't know if it is exactly the same stuff, but we use a boron nitride spray to prevent items being brazed form sticking to the supports, at temperatures around 2000°F in vacuum furnaces. A tiny bit of overspray of the white powder on the floor makes it really slippery...

It appears unchanged by the brazing temperature, so it can definitely handle the heat.

I would like to see some research into whether the hBN nano particles added to the Ethylene-propylene glycol mixture would enhance thermal conductivity, and would the efficiency continue to improve at higher concentrations....They are talking about .01% by weight for the 80% improvement in mineral oil....The chart shown is not high enough as it only shows thermal improvement for lower temps,(320K=116F)....need an extended chart.....

I see here that they do have some high volume water pumps that they have designed for use with the mixture....

http://www.evanscooling.com/assets/Uploads/Evans-miniCatalog2.pdf

It occurs to me that if the engine was designed with larger coolant flow channels, and the thermal conductivity properties improved along with the higher volume pumps, this would be superior to the existing systems....In other words an engine designed to be cooled with oil, rather than a retrofit....

Sorry the system keeps dumping my replies anyone else having the same problem. Duke A lot of time writing them to have them return to the ether/beyond.

There have been times when I have spent ages composing a reply only to find that it vanished on posting. Very, very frustrating! Having to go through the whole thinking process again is not only stressful, but an awful waste of time. Sometimes I have written it in WORD and stored it, then copied and pasted it into reply, to avoid this problem.

You are correct about the cooling channels the modular motors have a considerably larger cooling jacket in the 4.6 and 5.4 aluminum blocks. the temps on mineral oil seems to stabilize about 10-15 degrees higher. They also put more heat into the cabin in the winter which I won't object to here in these Indiana winters. This additive you are talking about is it on the market or will we have to find a chemist to purchase it for us for instillation in the mineral oil. If it will get the temps down it might help on the race cars & my MK IIIV. Cobra motors tend to run a little hot at 200-250 mph. Looks like my grand daughter won't worry as much about the temp if I can get my hands on your additive. she tends to have her foot on the throttle past the traps to make sure she don't miss them like she did once and trapped out at 175 mph instead of 200 to qualify for the 200 mph club looks like next year. We both would like to get there next year and maybe 250 mph.

It's sold as a dry lubricant.....You would need the very fine powder. @ .5-1.0 micron particle size, with a 0.1% by wt concentration(at least as a ballpark)....Do you use high volume water pumps? or stock? Sure would like some feedback on results....(I have an '08 4.6L GT)

http://sandblastingabrasives.com/hexagonal-boron-nitride-powder-order-page-781.html

I am busy this week as I just acquired a new to me truck 2001 Astro. And I am going over it from top to bottem before I need to depend on it. I will try next week to locate the addative and try it, will it stay in suspension or does it need to be kept moving all the time which in the race car is not a problem as we drain everything after a race just to inspect for debrie and fluid breakdown. But in my street Mark IIV I have had no reason to remove the fluid since it has shown no signs of breakdown in the race car as of this season. I do have a Stewart high volume water pump on both the street car and race car and as of this year it has been on the street for 3 years even before the mineral oil conversion. All I did was to flush the block out very well with the block drains removed then I applied a lot of air to the block to evacuate any moisture left in the block then started it up let it warm up then left it to cool down and checked for moisture/steam leaving the block from any open holes in the block. And the reservoir tank does not overflow it rarely moves more than an Inch up or down since the change over. Duke

I have a 2000 Astro just got it painted....the only problems I've had are the vacuum hoses and A/c compressor, blower fan resistor speed control....this is my third Astro/Safari....I think they are the best vans....very reliable, and smooth as silk, effortless to drive....great cruiser

They didn't have any problem keeping the particles in solution with the nano particles, but they were somewhat thinner chips at perhaps 120 nm, than the fine powder I linked, which although similar in size the thickness may be several times that of the particles tested....So you might check the solution for settling, for your street ride......or they may have access to thinner particles, so would inquire about that...

Finding an universal solution for a variety of conditions responsible for corrosion failures is a always a great challenge for Material Developers. Corrosion problems for a particular set of conditions observed in one geography may not be applicable in another region. Water is considered as an easily available collant medium. It needs a lot of collaborative research inputs before we start exploring the unique solution.