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Dropping of Contactors

08/30/2013 11:49 PM

What is dropping of contactors (relays & contactors)? And is there any solution for it?

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#1

Re: Dropping of contactors

08/31/2013 12:04 AM

Low or interrupted voltage to their coils.

Check wiring.
Adjust voltage, if within your control.
Consider mechanically latched relays/contactors.
There may be other coil designs more accommodating of voltage dips.

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#2

Re: Dropping of contactors

08/31/2013 12:05 AM

It's what happens when there is a voltage dip.

Can you think of a solution for it?

Think really hard.

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#3

Re: Dropping of contactors

08/31/2013 12:05 AM

Hold onto them tighter.

Wear steel-toed shoes.

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#4

Re: Dropping of contactors

08/31/2013 10:27 AM

"dropping" is usually a term used when something is unexpectedly de-energized or otherwise fails before it's expected to go offline. get out your VOM and start hunting

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#5
In reply to #4

Re: Dropping of contactors

08/31/2013 10:44 AM

OP, "What is VOM and how to use it?"

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#6
In reply to #5

Re: Dropping of contactors

08/31/2013 11:11 AM

Im thinking you know

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#7
In reply to #6

Re: Dropping of contactors

08/31/2013 11:23 AM

I know. But does harithachandu?

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#15
In reply to #7

Re: Dropping of contactors

09/02/2013 12:55 AM

oh yeah..thanks for your concern..and I know that

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#8

Re: Dropping of Contactors

08/31/2013 8:54 PM

Use a DC control circuit with battery backup....

http://www.geindustrial.com/Newsletter/ind_nov01_left1.pdf

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#9

Re: Dropping of Contactors

08/31/2013 10:24 PM

As Tornado has said, use mechanically latched contactors if you have to avoid inadverent dropping of contactors (i assume that you don't want them to drop off). If you try other methods, there is a risk of the contacts 'relaxing' to a just-touch position if the voltage is way below rated voltage, causing possible welding of contacts. Especially if DC coils are used.

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#10

Re: Dropping of Contactors

08/31/2013 11:23 PM

In motor starters, in addition to dropping, chattering can take place,which can damage motor too.

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#11

Re: Dropping of Contactors

09/01/2013 1:47 AM

You have not given details of Service Condition, when dropping of contactors is being experienced.

If it is occurring during normal operation of plant or motors, during low voltage of the day, on a particular starter, which is very remote as coils drop at 65% of rated voltage unless the shaded ring is damaged (explained below)

On Yoke of AC Contactors, there is a shaded ring (Cu ring circling half of core).Purpose is to convert flux due to single phase control supply in to 2 phase flux, flux in shaded portion lagging approx. 90 Deg of un-shaded portion so that we get smoother average flux. If this ring is broken (Cu becomes hard with core vibration - cold working -> brittle -> develop crack.

In contactors with damaged ring, it is common to hear humming noise, which on lower coil voltage turns to chattering and further drop in voltage, dropping of contactor.

If dropping is occurring on a particular contactor check its ring and solder it if cracked.

Otherreason of dropping of a particular contactor of a Starter can be if it has self reset thermal overload or any other protection without target. (Bi-metallic overload relays can be set for self or hand reset). In this case if the overload is not set correctly or momentary overload occurs, the contactor will drop of its own and you would not know the cause.

Otherreason can be if a number of Contactors drop during starting of a large motor.In this case if the dropping occurs when power is supplied by DG Set, then either 3 phase synchronous alternator is undersized or both engine and alternator are undersized.

If there is heavy dip in both, frequency and voltage, then complete DG Set isundersized. In case only voltage dips, the 3 phase alternator is undersized for the duty.

if a number of Contactors drop off during starting of a large motor. In this case if the dropping occurs when power is supplied by Utility fed Distribution Transformer, the size of transformer is smaller. In this case you can select one or two taps to get higher voltage.

Another solution in both of above cases (undersized DG or transformer) is; if it DOLstarter for that motor change to Y/D or go for VFD to start large motor so that you can limit the starting current and resultant voltage dip.

In case of DG Sets, besides dropping of contactor other production problems alsoexist, there are other complex solutions, such as volts per Hz AVR, type of speed governing etc. For this you will have to engage Application Engineer from DG Set manufacturer to give solution.

I have tried to suggest all possible causes and solutions I could think off. If any more cause occurs later I shall come back.

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#19
In reply to #11

Re: Dropping of Contactors

09/02/2013 3:20 AM

in DOL or star-delta starters will "rolling" solve the dropping/chattering problem?.

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#20
In reply to #19

Re: Dropping of Contactors

09/02/2013 3:33 AM

Pranab, I could not follow the term "rolling" - pl explain.

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#21
In reply to #20

Re: Dropping of Contactors

09/02/2013 3:52 AM

Permuting phase A-->B, B-->C, and C-->A. Sometimes this helps with voltage transients, such as by moving a control circuit to the higher of slightly imbalanced voltages.

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#22
In reply to #21

Re: Dropping of Contactors

09/02/2013 8:01 AM

The impedance of Distribution Transformers is between 4 to 6%.

assuming supply to your factory is from 500 to 750kVA transformer. In such case maximum voltage drop, when the transformer is 100% loaded, shall be 5% in each phase.

Assume 80% loads are balanced three phase and remaining 20% single phase (which is practical) And assuming that all single load comes on any one phase (which shall not be the case of a good distribution in an industry), maximum unbalance between phase to neutral shall be 1%, that is 2.4V, which is neglegible.

If one finds, considerable unbalance between phase to neutral voltage of 3 phase system, reason can be due to floating neutral that means poor or open connection between earth and neutral. If you are facing problem of contactor dropping due to this then please check the neutral earthing.

A good practice where controls are 230V ac, to use a step down transformer 415V:230V. This takes care of voltage drops due to unbalance load as well ensures low fault current in control wiring (very helpful in chemical plants and Power Plants (say boiler) where control wires have to run through remote operating stations or interlocks with limit switches of valves, gates and dampers etc.). And for such control transformers, the secondary is tapped at centre of 230V. This point is grounded - advantage being if someone gets shock while working on live wires, it is not as dangerous as 230V - as he is exposed to 115V to earth.

Hope I correctly understood your point.

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#12

Re: Dropping of Contactors

09/01/2013 2:36 AM

A common cause of relays dropping out, or an entire machine stopping, is an intermittent "Stop circuit". Since the stop contacts are at the front of the line,so to speak, in most control circuits,and intermittent in this circuit can cause all `controllers downstream to stop.

Refer to the schematics of the machine in question.All stop buttons and E-Stop buttons will be in series.A thorough testing of these switches and all wiring is required to isolate the problem.A very simple method can reveal dirty contacts in a particular switch:

A GENTLE tap on the side of the switch with a very light hammer or screwdriver will reveal the bad switch, if indeed that is the problem.All crimped-on connectors and wire splices should be tested by pulling and bending also.

Terminal strip screws should be closely examined for proper insertion depth of wires, and screws should be tightened using a properly sized screwdriver.Forcing an over sized screwdriver into a strip can cause problems later.

Sometimes repairs are made in a wire trough,and are undocumented,so if all else fails, do a physical-hands on- inch by inch trace of the stop circuit(s) wiring,feeling and tugging on the wires.I have found wires that were broken inside of the insulation and were not visible,but when pulled on, the insulation stretched at the point of breakage.

Good luck. Intermittents are notoriously hard to pinpoint.

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#13

Re: Dropping of Contactors

09/01/2013 11:25 AM

I think your teacher wanted you to research this not ask us !!!!!!!!!

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#14

Re: Dropping of Contactors

09/01/2013 7:53 PM

Yes, carry them more carefully!

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#16

Re: Dropping of Contactors

09/02/2013 1:25 AM

@all: thanks

@Tornado : some manufacturers specify the contactors to be SEMI F47 compliant for voltage sag immunity.

Some currently followed practices are given in

http://www.elec.uow.edu.au/apqrc/content/technotes/UOW012_Tech%20Note%2011_AW_screen.pdf

www.icrepq.com/icrepq-08/246-andrada.pdf‎ mentions about a hold in ciruit

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#17
In reply to #16

Re: Dropping of Contactors

09/02/2013 1:32 AM

Good. It appears that your additional research has paid off. Best of luck in solving any control problems you may be having.

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#18
In reply to #16

Re: Dropping of Contactors

09/02/2013 3:18 AM

The 1st link not opening but the 2nd link ok.

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#24
In reply to #18

Re: Dropping of Contactors

09/03/2013 8:46 PM

instead of %20 in the links give space and try to open. if it does not download even then pl. prove your e-mail id so that i can mail the pdf document.

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#23

Re: Dropping of Contactors

09/02/2013 11:06 AM

SEMI-F47 specifications are for the semiconductor manufacturing industry. The spec calls for having systems in place that allow for contactors to stay energized under extreme voltage sag conditions, more extreme than normal (I no longer have access to a copy, but I think it is down to 30% of nominal voltage?). So typically, contactors that meet SEMI-F47 specs use a solid state coil system that has a built-in SMPS and a low voltage DC coil, so that it can accept any input voltage from 24-285V, AC or DC.

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