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Electrical Energy Storage Device

08/30/2013 8:56 PM

Dear All,

I am working in glass container factory which is hourly consumed at 12Mva, therefore I am thinking is that any electrical energy storage device that can storage electrical energy in OFF PEAK at main switch board due to low tariff . However " discharge storaged energy" during ON PEAK to main switch board.

Therefore can make lot of $ saving if the energy storage devices are available.

Regards

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#1

Re: Electrical energy storage device

08/30/2013 9:17 PM

They are called batteries.

Or, if local topography is suitable, you could build a pumped water storage.

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#6
In reply to #1

Re: Electrical energy storage device

08/31/2013 1:14 AM

Tornado thinks out of the box and comes up with a smart solution!

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#2

Re: Electrical energy storage device

08/30/2013 9:50 PM

Sorry, no way.

First, you can only store energy in direct current, so you must convert the AC power to DC so you can store it. That converter will set you back about 5 to 10% in efficiency losses.

Next, the batteries are also inefficient. They act partially like a resistor as they are charged/discharged, so they have about a 30% loss in efficiency.

Finally, you must convert the battery power back to AC. That will be another 5 to 10% loss in power efficiency.

Negating losses in the wiring, you are now between 40% to 50% efficiency loss! That means that for every kW/h you take out of the storage system you must put in 2 kW/h to charge it.

Unless your off-peak rate is less than 1/2 your peak hourly rate you can't begin to even break even!

But it gets worse yet. First the batteries are very expensive. Look up the cost of AGM batteries (Absorbed Glass Mat) and then add that to your energy calculations!

Also, the batteries have a lifespan of only 5 to 10 years before they must be replaced. So you have recurring system costs.

We have not even talked about the cost of the chargers and inverters.

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#3

Re: Electrical energy storage device

08/30/2013 10:01 PM

I'm not sure if you will save a lot or any money but there are many energy storage systems possible. They all require converting electrical energy into another energy form at your total energy size of 3.7*10^11 Joules. (I'm assuming an 8.5 hr work day.) At this energy size it is common to lose 40% of the power to convert and then reconvert any energy from one form to another. So while this can be done, unless you can purchase 5.1*10^11 Joules during off peak hours cheaper than the 3.7*10^11 during peak hours you will never save money. Let alone the investment cost.

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#4

Re: Electrical energy storage device

08/30/2013 10:24 PM

Something here↓ stands as good a chance as anything for your energy dreams.

HOME OF FREE ENERGY KNOWLEDGE

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#22
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Re: Electrical energy storage device

09/02/2013 9:54 AM

Can you say tinfoil hat time?

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#23
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Re: Electrical energy storage device

09/02/2013 10:19 AM

Not only that, he once posted a perfect tinfoil hat pic.

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#30
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Re: Electrical energy storage device

09/04/2013 9:03 AM

OK. "Tinfoil hat time".

It feels better now, somehow.

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#5

Re: Electrical energy storage device

08/30/2013 10:55 PM

I guess you use electrical ovens?

Running the factory during OFF Peak times saves most. In case you are not running 24/7 already.

If you are running full time - consider to build a factory next to it. Or perhaps 2, depending on the OFF PEAK time. When you have e.g. 8 hours low tariff, you could build a factory in a star model and use common logistics.

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#7

Re: Electrical energy storage device

08/31/2013 8:47 AM

Google "Dinorwig pumped storage scheme".

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#8

Re: Electrical Energy Storage Device

08/31/2013 1:12 PM

flow batteries

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#9

Re: Electrical Energy Storage Device

09/01/2013 1:03 AM

Aikhh, With current available practical devices nothing in sight which you can efficiently use to store electric energy at low capital cost, justifying storage and reuse. For example Pump Storage plants have efficiency of approx. 50% thus bare cost of energy goes double in storage and conversion, forget capital cost burden.

One answer in near future can be Hydrogen Cells (conversion of water in to 2H+O), store the gases and use these back to generate power when Utility Power is expansive.

One alternative can be to locate similar smaller industries nearby yours for whom buying bulk power is not feasible. Your industry can contract more energy during cheap power duration and sell to these smaller units at rates attractive than Utility and thus average out your power bill.

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#10

Re: Electrical Energy Storage Device

09/01/2013 3:46 PM

Scientists based in Canada have developed a new technique for converting electricity into chemical energy. This could lead to improvements to the way that homeowners and businesses capture and re-use solar power.Researchers based at the University of Calgary, Curtis Berlinguette and Simon Trudel, have developed an innovative way to make new affordable and efficient catalysts for capturing solar power.The innovation, as detailed in the research brief, is a new type of electrolyzer device that uses catalysts to start a chemical reaction that converts electricity into chemical energy by splitting water into hydrogen and oxygen fuels. These fuels can then be stored and re-converted to electricity for future use.Key to the new method is the catalyst, the Technology Review notes,which the researchers report is faster, more efficient, and most importantly, cheaper than anything else available.The technological breakthrough offers a relatively cheaper method of storing and reusing electricity produced by wind turbines and solar panels. The technology is set to be commercialized through a new start-up company called FireWater Fuel Corp.FireWater Fuel Corp. expects to have a commercial product in the current large-scale electrolyzer market in 2014, and a prototype electrolyzer -- using their new catalysts -- ready by 2015 for testing in a home.

Read more: http://digitaljournal.com/article/351353#ixzz2dfihQZf2

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#26
In reply to #10

Re: Electrical Energy Storage Device

09/03/2013 9:14 AM

Even with the advance that this represents, it appears that there is still not an inexpensive way to exploit off-peak energy through storage. It will be some time before the present advance becomes commercially available. The OP needs to evaluate how they utilize energy in their operation, and consider doing most of the melt work at off-peak, even if this means using a night shift.

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#11

Re: Electrical Energy Storage Device

09/01/2013 3:49 PM

Storing electrical energy in batteries (or similar) isn't going to be practical in this case.

Have you considered supplementing your power with alternative sources such as gas or other on-site power generation to help?

Additionally have you considered supplementing or altering the way you generate the heat necessary to produce the glass, such as switching to gas, adding additional furnaces to burn waste to produce heat, etc.

Have you considered updating your equipment to more modern (better insulated) types to help reduce the heat wastage and hence save power? A small percentage rise in efficiency will go a long way at these heating power levels.

Have you considered using the process waste heat given off to heat water, steam, etc through the use of heat exchangers, that can then be used on site and hence save power in other areas?

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#13
In reply to #12

Re: Electrical Energy Storage Device

09/01/2013 11:48 PM

A high energy usage semiconductor fabrication plant may be able to afford and justify an electrical energy storage system for key high energy plant systems but not a glass container manufacturer whose primary use for electricity is simple heating.

Not even an aluminium smelter is realistically going to be able to justify an electrical energy storage system on their main induction pot line to help cut tariff costs (which I believe someone also asked and we covered in a previous question on CR4).

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#25
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Re: Electrical Energy Storage Device

09/03/2013 4:42 AM

wikipedia claims efficiency = 90% which beats all else!

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#14

Re: Electrical Energy Storage Device

09/02/2013 12:01 AM

Your best bet is probably to adjust the work shift hours to match the times for lowest electricity rates.

You could give part of the savings to the workers as compensation for any odd hours.

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#15
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Re: Electrical Energy Storage Device

09/02/2013 12:13 AM

Here's a silly idea. Automate as much of the high energy steps as possible and then perform them only at night with a skeleton crew. In the daytime do all of the delicate work with your highly skilled workers that no longer have to cope with the heat of hot glass.

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#16
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Re: Electrical Energy Storage Device

09/02/2013 12:18 AM

Are we talkin' Dale Chihuly here?

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#20
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Re: Electrical Energy Storage Device

09/02/2013 8:29 AM

I expect that Dale insists on using a gas fired glass furnace for his work, not electricity.

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#17

Re: Electrical Energy Storage Device

09/02/2013 12:50 AM

Last night I was driving home in the middle of a serious lightning storm, Lightning was bouncing off all kinds of places, As I passed a pole it lit up like a Christmas tree in Bright yellow, then orange then white and went dark all in 3-5 secs in my rvm. I seen the entire pole in my mirror. Then I had to look away after more strikes were hitting the ground still 2 miles from home. Lightning was bouncing off all the trees and buildings I passed. Have not seen this since 1988. If 1 lightning bolt could be harnessed, the energy potential would be limitless. Currently Solar and Wind energy sucks. I do have a theory for an alternative energy source, just have been unable to build a prototype due to financial and machining support. Maybe next year after I complete our house project.

We need to contain a lightning strike. Just like Ben tried to do with the kite.

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#18
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Re: Electrical Energy Storage Device

09/02/2013 1:16 AM

No, if one lightning bolt could be harnessed, the energy would be quite limited. If all of them could be harnessed, that might amount to something, but such a task is practically impossible. That is just another hare-brained scheme with the decimal point a few places off.

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#24
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Re: Electrical Energy Storage Device

09/02/2013 3:22 PM

As Tornado has indicated it isn't a practical (or safe) alternative energy source.

There are a few good posts on CR4 on the subject you could look up which go into more detail as to why (try the site search function on the right) as this has come up and been thought of by a number of people.

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#19

Re: Electrical Energy Storage Device

09/02/2013 3:39 AM

this may sound silly but what if you store NRG as a product (say a milled gravel for concreet or something they use daily in vast amounts) - and buy your NRG bill back to balance

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#27
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Re: Electrical Energy Storage Device

09/03/2013 9:17 AM

Please do elaborate on what you mean by NRG, and how you envision this scheme to work?

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#21

Re: Electrical Energy Storage Device

09/02/2013 9:50 AM

If you have a significant elevation change anywhere in the local area, you can use solid materials such as river stone stored in bins at the high grade and low grade and a bucket system on a conveyor. This lifts stones during off-peak, and returns stones (and generates electricity) during peak hours. The Brits are looking at this seriously as a means of storing wind energy, and it is fairly low-tech. Watch out for maintenance costs, etc.

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#28

Re: Electrical Energy Storage Device

09/03/2013 4:12 PM

As long as we are in left field......

Why not a big honkin flywheel! or several smaller ones.

http://news.cnet.com/8301-11128_3-9968539-54.html

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#29
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Re: Electrical Energy Storage Device

09/03/2013 5:10 PM

Or a bevy of whirling derishes (or is that dervi)?

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#31

Re: Electrical Energy Storage Device

09/04/2013 9:11 AM

Look at energy conservation and reduction instead. The payback is likely to be far better than some form of storage scheme of sufficient size to cope with demand, so the priority has to be demand reduction.

Carry out an energy audit across the entire site, and pick the low-hanging fruit first. Repeat the process at intervals.

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#32

Re: Electrical Energy Storage Device

02/18/2018 2:09 PM

I recall that pumping heat can be 3x more efficient than generating heat (resistively).

Has anyone ever analyzed how to pump heat up to molten glass temperatures? How are the efficiencies?

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#33
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Re: Electrical Energy Storage Device

02/21/2018 10:06 PM

I doubt getting to glass melting temperature is doable with a heat pump, for the simple reason that when glass melts, many metals lose their main characteristics too.

Alu is gone already, steel is shamefully red etc...

You might use it in earlier stages - to heat up to lower high temp - and then cascade up from that point with other means.

My 5 cents

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